Wyeast recent viability

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mithion

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Hey everyone. I had a question about Wyeast's yeast viability in the last few months. I've been homebrewing for 3 years now and I've been a big fan of Wyeast's smack packs. I love their selection and their products. When I started brewing with their yeast a few years ago, I hadn't heard about making a yeast starter yet I would pitch the yeast straight from the pack in late afternoon, and by midnight I would see active signs of fermentation.

In the last six months, it has all changed. I began doing starters yet my beers still didn't start as quickly as they did before. Last september, I used Wyeast 1968 for a couple of british beers. English strains are usually pretty vigorous and ferment quickly. All of them had sluggish starts sometimes going nearly 48 hours without active signs of fermentation and took weeks instead of days to finish. I tried starters, I tried without starters, it made no difference. At the time, I just thought I got a bad pack of yeast. But I recently bought a pack of German Ale 1007 to brew an Alt beer. The same thing is happening again with this pack. I looked at the date and saw that it was less than 3 weeks old so the pack was pretty fresh.

Let me just say my beers have been turning out great (actually better than ever) even with the slow starting fermentation so that's not the issue. But have there been any reports or other people with similar experiences where Wyeast smack pack yeast has been slower lately? Or am I just living in a time dilated frame of reference?
 
Like clockwork when I use a starter with a smack pack I am at FG within 72 hours. The british yeasts are downright dangerous.

Where are you getting your yeast from? What are your fermentation temps? Maybe the yeast have been exposed to extreme temp changes before you get them.
 
I get them at the local homebrew store as I always have. He stores them in a refrigerator which has always been like that since I started brewing. But for some reason, I've had trouble in the last 6 months. As far as temperature goes, I'm fermenting cooler than I use to. 3 years ago, I fermented at whatever temperature the house was which was quite warm during the summer. I've now acquired enough experience, knowledge and equipment to ferment consistently in the mid 60s. But I don't think that fermentation temperature is the issue here. Last weekend, I brewed a Sierra Nevada pale ale using US05. I hadn't used dry yeast since my first batch of beer in 2006 since that batch tasted like a**. But people on this website swear by it so I gave it a shot. And true to what people said, the fermentation started within 12 hours reaching it's peak at 36. And I fermented that one around 65F the same as the others. Yet my wyeast batches just won't cooperate. Maybe you're right though. Liquid yeast is sensitive to storage environments and maybe something has changed at the store.
 
What size starters, what OG on the beers? Holding a steady temp?

I use Wyeast all the time and also usually have the beers finish up within 3 days. For regular gravity beers, say 1.040 to 1.055, I'm pitching 2L starters made from their propagation packs (the smaller ones), pitching around 64 or so and usually fermenting at 66-68.
 
just pitched thames valley II saturday, was active before i went to bed.

was violent the next morning.
 
I had thick krausen this weekend in less then 12 hours after pitching a starter that has been in the fridge and only exposed to warm temperature for a few hours.

I dont think there are any problems with Wyeast.
 
I dont think there are any problems with Wyeast.

I'm just trying to figure out if the problem lies on my end on on Wyeast's end. Since you all report excellent performance, then the problem probably lies between me and the LHBS. I'm also comparing the performance of the smack packs in the last 6 months compared to 3 years ago. As I was saying, back then I usually pitched the yeast right out of the pack without a starter and would still achieve excellent performance. However, I was fermenting in the 70s at the time whereas now I'm fermenting in the 66-68 range.

The beers I've brewed with the London ESB yeast had starting gravities of 1.060 for the ESB and 1.044 for the Special Bitter. Both of those fermented at 66-68F and both got a starter. I usually do 1 quart starters with 1 cup of DME as per the Wyeast website. It took them 48 hours to start showing signs of fermentation. The Altbier I'm currently fermenting (with Wyeast 1007) had a starting gravity of 1.054 and I decided to skip the starter to see if I noticed a difference. I'm currently fermenting that one at 60F and it has started in about 36 hours.

I don't think the starters are the issue. I never used them before and got plenty active fermentation very quickly. There is one thing that has changed over time: the age of my buckets. I'm thinking that 3 years ago, my buckets were brand new and probably got a good seal. Maybe now they are older, and the seal isn't as good, it just requires more time to build pressure for the airlock to move. I try to look for a beginning krausen but it's hard to tell if there is one through an opaque bucket. Now that I think about it, there are too many variables that have changed in the last few years to compare past performance with present performance. Good seal vs bad seal. Starter vs no starter. Warmer temperatures vs cooler temperatures. I need to get a large carboy to eliminate whether the seal is the problem. Thanks for your input. I got one important piece of information from you guys. That is that wyeast still makes rockin' yeast! :mug:
 
I think your fermentation temp is the main issue here. All strains will be much more vigorous at warm temperature. A 10 degrees difference is huge..

The yeast metabolism is slowed down and everything takes more time. This is one of the first things I noticed when I started controlling my fermentation temp.

Also, you can't really compare the wyeast smack pack to a 11gr sachet of US-05. The cell count on the dry yeast will be higher than the liquid, even if you make a starter.

Also, are you doing more oxygenation than you did in the past? I think if you oxygenate, the lag time will be longer, as the yeast will consume oxygen first.

Try making bigger starter or using a stir-place if you do not already to up your cell count as high as possible (use a pitching rate calculator)..

But either way, since you are making great beer, I would really not worry about it to much.
 
I think your fermentation temp is the main issue here. All strains will be much more vigorous at warm temperature. A 10 degrees difference is huge..

The yeast metabolism is slowed down and everything takes more time. This is one of the first things I noticed when I started controlling my fermentation temp.

Also, you can't really compare the wyeast smack pack to a 11gr sachet of US-05. The cell count on the dry yeast will be higher than the liquid, even if you make a starter.

Also, are you doing more oxygenation than you did in the past? I think if you oxygenate, the lag time will be longer, as the yeast will consume oxygen first.

Try making bigger starter or using a stir-place if you do not already to up your cell count as high as possible (use a pitching rate calculator)..

But either way, since you are making great beer, I would really not worry about it to much.

Dunno about your assumptions here. I regularly pitch at 64 or 65, then ferment anywhere from 64 to 69. And I use pure O2. And I don't see any big lag times. I generally make pretty big starters though. But I always see activity in 3 to 6 hours. Not saying he should aim for that, but I think saying the O2 or colder temps are causing this are off base. He's not fermenting that cold.

I'd say to do a 2 quart starter instead and use O2. Pitching cooler in the mid 60s isn't a problem. At least not in my experience. And Duvel pitches their yeast even colder than that and they don't have this problem.
 
Another thing to consider: try fermenting in a carboy. I don't even use an airlock until 48 or so hours in. I use an open blowoff, meaning a blowoff into an empty bucket. I analyze the yeast performance visually, not by airlock bubbling. Not saying there's anything wrong with buckets, but seeing what the yeast is doing could be helpful. Early in my fermentation, I have no idea if it'd be bubbling an airlock or not. Certainly LOOKS like it. But I watch it, and when it forms a head and is swirling in there, I know all is well. Besides, it's fun to watch. Like a little universe making your beer for you.
 
How are you preparing your starters - are you on a stir plate and if so, for how long?

I use Wyeast for virtually all of my brewing and have never run into any problems along the lines that you have mentioned. I can't think of a batch that took more than several hours to begin fermentation and normally fermentation begins within a few hours. I use Wyeast Irish, Ringwold, Thames Valley, & Scottish Ale which tend to be more explosive, & American Ale & AA II, PacMan, 2112, Northwest. I have also used a number of the Wyeast lager strains and they have also worked well.

I follow the same procedure regardless of which Wyeast ale strain I am using - 2 liter starter on stir plate for 24-48 hours @ room temp (68'F) and then the brew goes down into the basement for fermentation at 63-64'. I also make certain that the Wyeast smack pack looks like the Hindenberg before I pitch into the starter by warming it up for 3 hours prior to pitching to the starter by shaking it 60 times x once every hour or so during the 3 hour warm-up. Don't know if this makes a difference in any way but it has worked well for me. Montanaandy
 
How are you preparing your starters - are you on a stir plate and if so, for how long?

I usually prepare my starters in a half gallon growler. I do one quart of water with one cup of DME. I've recently acquired a nice digital scale so that cup of DME is very close to 3oz by weight. And then I usually do between 24 and 48 hours. I've tried different schedules like 24 hours then pitch the whole thing into beer. I've also tried 24 hours at room temperature followed by 24 hours in the fridge to allow the yeast to settle so I can decant and pitch just the creamy slurry. I've tried 48 hours at room temperature and pitch. I do not use a stir plate but I try to swirl the growler every few hours to free up the inhibitive CO2.

One thing I wanted to add about the US05 batch we brewed. My buddy is starting to homebrew and he got himself a 6.5 gallon carboy (which I'm dying to get for myself). We used his carboy instead of my buckets to brew the SNPA clone so it was sealed properly. I think you're right though, it's tough to monitor the state of activity when you can't actually see the beer. My beers could be fermenting early but they don't build enough pressure until they get close to peaking in terms of activity.
 
"I do not use a stir plate but I try to swirl the growler every few hours to free up the inhibitive CO2."

This might be part of the problem, or perhaps why I have had better luck. I invested in a stir plate shortly after I started using liquid yeast on a regular basis. This is the only real difference that I see between your procedure and mine. I make my starter a bit thicker (8 oz DME to 2 qt water which is 2 x what you are using but in line proportionally). Montanaandy
 
I've only used Wyeast products since I started brewing and I've made a starter for every batch. I make 1000ml starters with 1/2 cup of DME I don't use a stir plate at all. I make the starter the night before i brew put it in my closest where my beer is also put to ferment. I stir it up and pitch the hole thing into the fermenter. I see signs of fermentation usually any where from 2-5hrs. Most of my beers have fermented at temps between 64-70ºF.
 
I did two batches with similar gravites and identical starters a few weeks ago. The stout was fermented with wyeast (1028 i think) and the IPA i used WLP007. The wyeast beer started about 12-18 hours after pitch and, the white labs started within three hours. I can't really blame wyeast although i don't know what i did different. Afterall they were different strains. For now i will just blame myself. I don't think it makes a huge difference between 2 hours lag to 18 hours lag. I just like it when they start quickly.
 
I don't think it makes a huge difference between 2 hours lag to 18 hours lag. I just like it when they start quickly.

If your sanitation methods are sound, then it shouldn't make too much of a difference. As I said earlier, I brewed an ESB and a Special Bitter, both of them taking 48 hours to start. Amazingly enough, both of them took an insane amount of time to finish. The Special bitter took 4 weeks before there was no more visible fermentation activity and it only had a starting gravity of 1.044. From what I've gathered on this website, fermentations that drag on like that usually result in two things. First, you may have an infection that's taken over and is wrapping up the fermentation for your yeast resulting in an unpalatable beer. Or second, you've got no infection, just unhealthy stressed yeast which results with beer that will be overly estery or have other off flavors. Well, my special bitter had neither. It ended up being an amazing beer that was perfect for the style: fruity yet clean. I think a rapidly starting fermentation is probably better. The quicker you get some alcohol in there the lower the chances of infection. However, my personal experience from the last few months have shown me that it's not the end of the world. Perfectly good beer can be produced with a slow start and a long fermentation.

I am trying to diagnose what is happening in my case though. My methods and knowledge of brewing are orders of magnitude better than they were a few years ago yet I was able to achieve faster fermentation before. I am leaning towards the aging buckets though as one of the causes. For my next beer in march, I will reattempt the Special Bitter, but this time I will use a carboy as a primary. I hope to be able to monitor the fermentation more closely this way and see if there is a difference as oppose to fermenting in a bucket with dubious sealing.
 
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