Question for the bitter experts

I'm new to the hobby and somehow successfully (so far) dove right into all-grain brewing after lots of research (thanks to many on this board) and preparation. I have a munich helles (first batch) lagering in my chest freezer in two 5 gallon Better Bottles for probably 3 more weeks. I'm anxious to brew another batch, a Marston's Pedigree clone, and I have two 6 gallon Better Bottles from the primary of my lager available for fermentation. Would it make a big difference not to do a secondary fermentation on the Pedigree? I'm thinking of just keeping it in the primary for 3 weeks, then bottling. I've spent enough money (my work bonus!) on my whole system and don't want to buy more fermenter's. Thanks.

Im not familiar with Marstons Pedigree, but a secondary fermentation is not necessary for brews for which clarity is not a big issue. The main point of secondary fermentation (or clearing) is to let the yeast settle out, thereby giving clearer beer. Very little, if any, actual fermentation takes place during this stage.

Thanks for the input! What about finings? Isinglass or irish moss? When is it appropriate to use each of these (during brewing, fermentation, bottling?) and would one of these help with clarity?

3 weeks in primary will be fine. I don't "secondary" anything unless it's really high gravity or I'm doing a true seconday fermentation. If you have space in your chest freezer, crash cool the primaries for a day at the end of three weeks before you keg or bottle.

If you don't have space to crash cool, you'll still get crystal clear beer after conditioning in the keg/bottle. You'll have a little sediment in the bottom of the keg (gone after the first couple pints) or bottle (pour carefully, no problem).

Awesome... I feel much better about it. Anyone have any input on the finings?

Oh, one more question... will crash cooling affect the yeast concentration in regards carbonation (bottling)?

You'll have plenty of yeast in suspension for carbonation after a day or two of crash cooling.

As far as finings: Irish moss is added to the boil (typically @ 15 mins) to help coagulate and break out proteins. It won't affect your yeast.

I've never used isinglass or any other post-fermentation finings, but as I understand it they will drop your yeast and so can't be used if your bottling. If you search "isinglass" you'll get a bunch of threads on the use of finings.

menschmaschine said:

Awesome... I feel much better about it. Anyone have any input on the finings?

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I've used polyclar (no more) and gelatin.

I recommend using gelatin. I have had great success with it.

Marston's Pedigree will benefit from an extended Primary or a secondary.

I'm not familiar with the beer but looking at their website it is an English Ale and not a Bitter. I've brewed several bitters recently with OG's of 1.035 with Wyeast 1968. They've been done fermenting in 3-4 days and bottled within 10-14 days without use of a secondary. The 1968 yeast is a flocculating demon and the beer is crystal clear without any finings. If anyone tries this yeast it looks like cottage cheese once it settles out and that is normal.

Got Trub? said:

I'm not familiar with the beer but looking at their website it is an English Ale and not a Bitter.

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I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement. The word "bitter" is used widely in the uk for a beer of this kind.

To answer the original question, you'll be fine with an extended primary with this beer.

/Phil.

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I have a plan now to just primary it and I feel much better about my brewing future. Having to secondary everything would be a b!tch! And I agree with Seveneer. I'm no expert, but lived in the UK for a while. I instinctively referred to this as a bitter based on my pub experiences over there. While unsure of technical definitions, I think for all intents and purposes it is. I have a recipe for it, but posted a thread on the recipe board because I wanted to get a 2nd opinion. It calls for cane sugar, and being new to all-grain, I just wanted to double-check that. If anyone has an all-grain recipe, please check out my other thread. Thanks again... everyone has been very helpful.

I have several excellent recipes for ales that require cane sugar (or invert sugar which produces the same results). If your recipe has a good provanence then I wouldn't be concerned about the use of cane sugar, used properly it can work very well.
Pedigree is pretty much a classic bitter and fwiw I wouldn't bother with a secondary although it wont hurt. The only reason you need to use a secondary on a bitter like this is if you want to rack bright beer to your corni, otherwise i'd rack it to the corni straight from the primary and give it 2 or 3 weeks to mature. Draw off the first pint of sediment and the rest should be clear if made properly. If you are in a hurry to drink it use issinglass or gelatine.

If you want to do a bitter and be drinking it very soon do this recipe:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.41 gal
Estimated OG: 1.038 SG
Estimated Color: 7.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 30.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 6.3 %
6.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 75.0 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 12.5 %
0.50 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 6.3 %
1.20 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 19.9 IBU
0.70 oz Fuggles [4.00%] (30 min) Hops 8.9 IBU
0.60 oz Fuggles [4.00%] (5 min) Hops 2.0 IBU
0.50 tsp Gelatin (Primary 7.0 days) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 8.00 lb
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 10.00 qt of water at 170.1 F 154.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 5.60 qt of water at 198.5 F 168.0 F 10 min

I put it in the fermenter for a week, add gelatin on day 4, rack to the kegs on day 7, force carbonate, and drink in 4 days. It's great beer. A lot of british beers are meant to go from fermenter to glass in a very short time. I have VERY clear beer and no secondary is needed. A lot of the experts agree secondaries aren't necessary for good beer and actually increase your chances of screwing it up.

Here's the recipe I found on the web and converted from 5 to 11 gallons (to allow for loss... I'm trying a different method of filtering out pellet hops and I want to make sure I end up with 10 gallons at bottling time). It's simple and cheap. I believe the general recipe is from a book, but I added Burton Water Salts (my well water profile needs it).

Marston's Pedigree Clone

Batch 11.00 gal
Recipe Gravity 1.046 OG
Estimated FG 1.012 FG
Recipe Bitterness 36 IBU
Alcohol by Volume 4.6%
Recipe Color 15° SRM
Alcohol by Weight 3.6%

Ingredients
Burton Water Salts
14.50 lb Marris Otter
0.40 lb Black Patent
1.75 lb Cane sugar

0.90 oz Fuggles pellet 90 minutes
0.65 oz Kent Golding pellet 90 minutes
1.00 oz Challenger pellet 90 minutes
0.60 oz Kent Golding pellet 15 minutes

WLP023 Burton Ale Yeast

Mash Thickness = 1.25 qts per pound of grain

Mash = 151 degrees F for 90 min.
Add Irish Moss last ten minutes of boil.
Transfer to fermenter. Add a few East Kent Goldings hops to primary fermenter.
Ferment for 3 weeks at ~70 degrees F.
Crash Cool for 24-48 hours before bottling.

mward,

Why do you add rice hulls to the mash in your recipe? I am under the impression that they are used when the mash consists of a lot of wheat malt or cereal adjunct compared to barley malt, in order to help prevent stuck mashes. Your recipe appears not to require their presence.

airedale - ha killer nick!

I add rice hulls because I use a corona mill and grind it pretty fine. I have been reducing the amounts added to see how it goes, so far so good. The only time I didn't use rice hulls I also used flaked barley and tried to lauter too fast and got a stuck sparge, but otherwise, all is well.