HERMS with 2 elements at same time or not?

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summerofgeorge

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It seems like quite a few people are going with some variation of Kal's build where only one element can be used at a time. I'm leaning towards a setup with the ability to use both elements at once. I've seen some nice setups like this. Do you actually use both elements at once or is it infrequent enough that it isn't really worth it?

I figure the benefits are that you can do back to back batches much easier. You can also use the HLT to heat up water for cleaning. Maybe this isn't that important. I guess you could always heat some cleaning water up once you start chilling. Then you only need one element. My thought was to use the boil time to get the MLT cleaned out though.

Benefits to one element at a time approach? Anything besides it's a little cheaper since you can get away with 30A instead of 50-60A?
 
I am of the opinion that if you can get 2 elements, get 2 elements. The only difficult part is sourcing all the 60A stuff you will need (and keeping it cheap enough). The extra cost of running 2 elements isn't prohibitive though, and I think in the long run will be worth it (high gravity dual boil, back to back batches, cleaning water).
 
i am running 4 5500W elements at a time so i would say two at one time is fine. 50A breakers is all you need for each pair of elements. Of course i am having to use 2 240V outlets to acheive this.

If you only have one element per vessel, the only benefit to being able to run both at the same time would be the ability to do back to back batches quicker. In my case, i have 2 elements per vessel.
 
i am running 4 5500W elements at a time so i would say two at one time is fine. 50A breakers is all you need for each pair of elements. Of course i am having to use 2 240V outlets to acheive this.

If you only have one element per vessel, the only benefit to being able to run both at the same time would be the ability to do back to back batches quicker. In my case, i have 2 elements per vessel.


If it's possible to run more than one element at once, I agree, go for it. I'm sure you'll thank yourself later on!

I am in the works of drawing up a diagram that has (4) 5500W elements, all to be run at once. Do you happen to have a wiring diagram for how you made this work? Or pictures of your electric set up. The more ideas I can get, the better I feel I can build my set up!
 
yea i have a wiring diagram but i have not physically done the wiring yet. I am doing it with 3 contactors and a 3 pole switch. Basically, if i want to brew in single batch mode, the switch will be in position 1. and the contactor to plug #2 will be open. The 3rd contactor will be closed allowing the power from outlet 1 to go to all heating elements 1+2+3+4 (through an SSR for one leg, hard wired for the other). The center position of the switch opens all 3 contactors (off).

The 3rd position on the switch closes the 1st and 2nd contactors and opens the 3rd. This position will be used when i am plugged into two 50A outlets and want to brew B2B batches.

Here is what i have for a witing diagram. I know its hard to see. I also did not include some of the wires (SSR control, volume measurement sensors).

HighLevelWiring.jpg
 
I have a 4500 W heating element in my HLT and a 3800 in my kettle. I've built a control unit with a SSR to control the 240V power but after I get my kettle to a rapid boil I switch it over to 110V. I have built a cord that has the 240V 30 amp female on one end (to receive the heating element) and the 110V male on the other (to plug into a regular wall outlet). Of course when you switch over to the 110V you are only providing 1/4 the power to the element but this is enough to keep a nice low boil on the kettle. I have 2 independent 30 amp circuit. With this system we do back to back batches without a problem. So while the first batch is on the low boil i'm already heating up the strike water for the second.
 
I have a 4500 W heating element in my HLT and a 3800 in my kettle. I've built a control unit with a SSR to control the 240V power but after I get my kettle to a rapid boil I switch it over to 110V. I have built a cord that has the 240V 30 amp female on one end (to receive the heating element) and the 110V male on the other (to plug into a regular wall outlet). Of course when you switch over to the 110V you are only providing 1/4 the power to the element but this is enough to keep a nice low boil on the kettle. I have 2 independent 30 amp circuit. With this system we do back to back batches without a problem. So while the first batch is on the low boil i'm already heating up the strike water for the second.

Hmmm this sounds cool. What size batches are you able to do? Seems like 950 watts wouldnt be able to hold a boil in anything greater than 5 gallons. Am I wrong? Please say yes. :D
 
If it's possible to run more than one element at once, I agree, go for it. I'm sure you'll thank yourself later on!

I am in the works of drawing up a diagram that has (4) 5500W elements, all to be run at once. Do you happen to have a wiring diagram for how you made this work? Or pictures of your electric set up. The more ideas I can get, the better I feel I can build my set up!

do you have a dedicated 100A service solely for your brew setup??
 
I am of the opinion that if you can get 2 elements, get 2 elements. The only difficult part is sourcing all the 60A stuff you will need (and keeping it cheap enough). The extra cost of running 2 elements isn't prohibitive though, and I think in the long run will be worth it (high gravity dual boil, back to back batches, cleaning water).

I can do either setup and don't mind putting a little extra money in it if it's worth it. The main reason this is even a debate is due to the location of the brewing relative to the circuit breakers. My main panel is in the garage, where conveniently I do my brewing. I have an open 30A breaker. It would be pretty easy to wire up a spa panel to this. (I looked into sourcing a 50A breaker for my panel but it's $$$ - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/square-d-trilliant-50a-breaker-307166/).

The other option is that I have a 100A subpanel in my basement with a free 50A breaker. I could run wire from this to the garage and into a spa panel if I wanted to go this route. I wasn't sure if it was worth the effort.
 
summerofgeorge said:
I can do either setup and don't mind putting a little extra money in it if it's worth it. The main reason this is even a debate is due to the location of the brewing relative to the circuit breakers. My main panel is in the garage, where conveniently I do my brewing. I have an open 30A breaker. It would be pretty easy to wire up a spa panel to this. (I looked into sourcing a 50A breaker for my panel but it's $$$ - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/square-d-trilliant-50a-breaker-307166/).

The other option is that I have a 100A subpanel in my basement with a free 50A breaker. I could run wire from this to the garage and into a spa panel if I wanted to go this route. I wasn't sure if it was worth the effort.

I saw your thread about the breaker. Thats a bummer. Depending how far you would need to run from the basement, it may end up cheaper to find a breaker or change out your panel.

Are you sure there are no free feed through lugs in your main. You could possibly get by with a tap.
 
do you have a dedicated 100A service solely for your brew setup??

At my current location I will actually only be able to feed 50-60amps into my brew set up.

My MT and HLT controls will be inside one control box that will be fed off a 50-60amp spa panel. The BK will have it's own control box, powered off this same spa panel. I will only be running one control box at a time on this current set up. Mash then switch to the Boil.

However, I will be changing locations in the future, just not sure as to when I will be doing this. So I am designing a system that will work for the new location, and the current location. The new location will have more than enough dedicated power to the brew station, (2) 60 or 50 amp spa panels. What are your thoughts, should I go 50amp or 60?

Also, do you feel it would be best to use contactor coils after the SSR for each of the elements? The only added benefit I see is that of safety. However, couldn't I just throw in DPST switches? I'm sure this has been debated, but I figure i'll ask.
 
Some panels have tap lugs to feed a sub panel. I am not familiar with the main panel you have. If there are lugs, you can connect direct off the bus and then feed a spa panel. If you could post a picture I could tell you if that is an option.
 
Okay, got some pics. Hopefully they're useful...The main breaker is 200A and the subpanel is 100A. I'm not sure what you're looking for so let me know if you need help following any of the wires. I really appreciate your help (and patience).

IMG_1694.jpg


IMG_1692.jpg


IMG_1702.jpg
 
I have been a contractor for 17 years now and I have never run across one of these panels. I looks alien or maybe european;) Unfortunately, I do not see any tap lugs. It sucks to have all that power where you need it but breakers cost a fortune. I would keep my eyes peeled for an ebay steal on a breaker.

The only other option I can think of is: if the 100A sub feed is not very loaded, you could use that breaker to feed a subpanel in the garage which could then feed your spa panel and the existing subpanel. That may cost more to get done than the breaker for your alien panel though.

If you can get a free estimate, have a contractor look at it and give you the best option. Sorry I could not give better news.
 
I'd go to Home Depot and grab a new 200a load center and never look back. What in the hell is that thing? Wait, I know what that is. Well, what in the hell IS that thing?

No? No one remembers that old Steve Martin bit from SNL?
 
Yes, it's an alien panel. Apparently it didn't take too long to get discontinued. And the 50-60A breakers are super expensive now at $300+. The smaller ones and larger main breakers are all more reasonable.

My 100A subpanel is in my basement. It has 3 20A breakers and a 50A breaker that's not wired. Is it possible to run a second subpanels from the one 100A breaker? As long as I don't add anything else to the basement, I shouldn't come close to tripping the breaker.

It would probably be easiest to just have an electrician come out and tell me how much it will cost for various options. We're looking to do a few other electrical things so whenever SWMBO decides what she wants, we'll get someone out here.
 
I'd go to Home Depot and grab a new 200a load center and never look back. What in the hell is that thing? Wait, I know what that is. Well, what in the hell IS that thing?

No? No one remembers that old Steve Martin bit from SNL?

I think I'd just use the 30A breaker and run one element at a time before upgrading the entire panel. Might depend on what an electrician has to say after seeing it. And sorry, the Steve Martin reference is lost on me!
 
summerofgeorge said:
My 100A subpanel is in my basement. It has 3 20A breakers and a 50A breaker that's not wired. Is it possible to run a second subpanels from the one 100A breaker? As long as I don't add anything else to the basement, I shouldn't come close to tripping the breaker.
.

This sounds like the best option to me. You have plenty of capacity on that 100A breaker to run your brewery. I would put at least a 20 circuit 100A loadcenter in the garage and have it share the breaker with the basement feeder or feed the basement panel from it. This would be much easier if your main panel was not recessed but it is still doable.

**edit** That 50A breaker in the basement isn't of the alien variety by chance?
 
That is kind of a cool looking panel, but I have never seen one before. Is your subpanel the same type? If so, I would probably consider just ripping it out and putting a standard panel in. I would recommend doing that to both in a long term situation. From the sound of it, you might be able to make back your money pretty quick selling off the parts to that thing.
 
This sounds like the best option to me. You have plenty of capacity on that 100A breaker to run your brewery. I would put at least a 20 circuit 100A loadcenter in the garage and have it share the breaker with the basement feeder or feed the basement panel from it. This would be much easier if your main panel was not recessed but it is still doable.

So I could go from 100A breaker in main --> 100A loadcenter in garage --> 100A basement panel...or 100A breaker in main --> split to 100A loadcenter in garage AND 100A basement panel?

If the second is an option, could I just split the 100A and go to the basement panel AND directly to a spa panel? I'm not sure why I'd need the 100A in the garage.

**edit** That 50A breaker in the basement isn't of the alien variety by chance?
Haha - no such luck. I was hoping that from the beginning. It's Square D but a different type.
 
That is kind of a cool looking panel, but I have never seen one before. Is your subpanel the same type? If so, I would probably consider just ripping it out and putting a standard panel in. I would recommend doing that to both in a long term situation. From the sound of it, you might be able to make back your money pretty quick selling off the parts to that thing.

The subpanel is Square D but a different type. Replacing it and selling off the parts may be an idea...it might take a while to find some buyers since it doesn't appear that the panel was that popular. I'm trying to avoid replacing the whole thing but if I want any flexibility, it's looking more and more like a decent option.
 
summerofgeorge said:
So I could go from 100A breaker in main --> 100A loadcenter in garage --> 100A basement panel...or 100A breaker in main --> split to 100A loadcenter in garage AND 100A basement panel?

If the second is an option, could I just split the 100A and go to the basement panel AND directly to a spa panel? I'm not sure why I'd need the 100A in the garage.

Yes. Either would work. The second would require some special lugs that I am not sure exist but probably do.

I would go with 100A panel in the garage because it is the most common/cheapest panel and you will never have this problem again.
 
summerofgeorge said:
My 100A subpanel is in my basement. It has 3 20A breakers and a 50A breaker that's not wired. Is it possible to run a second subpanels from the one 100A breaker? As long as I don't add anything else to the basement, I shouldn't come close to tripping the breaker.

Is this 50 amp breaker removable?
You mentioned square d but a different style. What is the number of the panel?
Could you replace the 50 with one that suits the plan?
 
Is this 50 amp breaker removable?
You mentioned square d but a different style. What is the number of the panel?
Could you replace the 50 with one that suits the plan?

The 50 amp breaker in the basement is removable but if I want to use a breaker in subpanel, I'd have to run the wires back up to the garage from there.

I had an electrician out today and he said the best option (other than getting a 50A breaker for my main panel) would be to install a 100A load center next to the main panel and then run both the subpanel and spa panels off this.

He quoted me $700 to install the 100A panel, rewire the 100A sub to it, and install a 50A spa panel with an outlet. This includes all parts and labor (except we would be using the 50A breaker from my subpanel for the spa panel). I have no idea how much electricians run...does this seem reasonable?
 
The 50 amp breaker in the basement is removable but if I want to use a breaker in subpanel, I'd have to run the wires back up to the garage from there.

I had an electrician out today and he said the best option (other than getting a 50A breaker for my main panel) would be to install a 100A load center next to the main panel and then run both the subpanel and spa panels off this.

He quoted me $700 to install the 100A panel, rewire the 100A sub to it, and install a 50A spa panel with an outlet. This includes all parts and labor (except we would be using the 50A breaker from my subpanel for the spa panel). I have no idea how much electricians run...does this seem reasonable?

That sounds a little high for my area. Off the top of my head I would probably quote about $500 but labor rates are different depending where you live and they are probably cheapest here:mad:

If there is a permit included, I would say it is reasonable as that is probably over $100 on top of labor and material.
 
Well, I have awesome news...I asked my neighbor if he knew where to find the breakers. He pulled out a bag of them and asked what size! He replaced his panel a few years ago but kept all the breakers in case anyone needed them. I just have to hook him up with homebrew now...done and done!!! I don't know why I didn't think to ask neighbors before. It was the same builder for the neighborhood so we probably all had the same boxes to start.

Now I can really start planning the electrical side of my build. :rockin:
 
summerofgeorge said:
Well, I have awesome news...I asked my neighbor if he knew where to find the breakers. He pulled out a bag of them and asked what size! He replaced his panel a few years ago but kept all the breakers in case anyone needed them. I just have to hook him up with homebrew now...done and done!!! I don't know why I didn't think to ask neighbors before. It was the same builder for the neighborhood so we probably all had the same boxes to start.

Now I can really start planning the electrical side of my build. :rockin:

Nice score! That will save you some $$.
 
Browsing around...have a real novice question here.

I understand that if you plan to run 2 heating elements at the same time, you would need a 50a breaker.

My noob question is....does that also require you to run the entire system with 220V?

(Don't worry....I don't plan on tackling this project...so I don't need to be told I can kill myself with this stuff) :D
 
Browsing around...have a real novice question here.

I understand that if you plan to run 2 heating elements at the same time, you would need a 50a breaker.

My noob question is....does that also require you to run the entire system with 220V?

(Don't worry....I don't plan on tackling this project...so I don't need to be told I can kill myself with this stuff) :D

Yes and no.

I'm running a system with 50a 240v so I can run both 5500w elements at the same time. I have three mini circuit breakers inside my control panel: (2) 50a 240v circuit breakers, one to run each element and then I have (1) 15a 120v circuit breaker to run everything else (pumps, PIDs, etc.)
 
Yes and no.

I'm running a system with 50a 240v so I can run both 5500w elements at the same time. I have three mini circuit breakers inside my control panel: (2) 50a 240v circuit breakers, one to run each element and then I have (1) 15a 120v circuit breaker to run everything else (pumps, PIDs, etc.)

Thank you...that clears it up somewhat. Do you have any pictures of your build by any chance?
 
My build (in progress) is a 50A GFCI to the panel, with 2x 25A (240V) and 2x 10A (120V) DIN breakers in the panel.
I did a 5500W and 4500W in each HLT and BK. I've wired it such that I can select either 5500W HLT & 4500W BK or Both in HLT or Both in BK. I went with the 4500W vs 2x5500W to give me a little more room on the 50A.
 
Yes and no.

I'm running a system with 50a 240v so I can run both 5500w elements at the same time. I have three mini circuit breakers inside my control panel: (2) 50a 240v circuit breakers, one to run each element and then I have (1) 15a 120v circuit breaker to run everything else (pumps, PIDs, etc.)

:confused: You're running 6 AWG to your elements?
 
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