OK, how about this recipe?

I'm wanting to go real basic for my first cider and experiment from there. I think I've finally decided to do this:
5 gallons preservative free apple juice
1 can of frozen concentrated apple juice
5 lbs of light brown sugar
2 packets champagne yeast.

Pour all of that into the fermenter and ferment until bubbling slows to one minute, rack to secondary until it clears warm a couple cups of apple juice and add 1 and a half cups of corn sugar add to bottling bucket and bottle.

I'm thinking of adding some frozen blueberries also. Would I need to put them in the primary or in the secondary? I've not really checked out the juice at the store yet. Will the preservative free have to be refrigerated? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if it is seasonal.

I'm not a cider maker (one idiot batch fermenting now on a whim), but... wow... that's a lot of brown sugar. That baby will be dry and hit you like a 10 pound hammer.

As a beer brewer, I want to boil everything that goes into my fermenter. While I know you can't do this with apple juice/cider because of pectin from the apples' skins, I would suggest at least boiling that brown sugar in some water before adding it to the mix.

As for the berries, you can probably just soak them in a small amount of vodka for a while to sanitize them and then dump them into the secondary. You COULD use the primary... it just depends on whether you want the blueberries to ferment, or just add flavor. (For fermented berries, use primary. for flavor, use secondary.)

-walker

Yeah, I'm OK with the 10 lb hammer, but I don't want dry I want semi-sweet.

you might want to use an ale yeast instad of the champagne yeast. That one will stop fermenting sugar when the alcohol content gets high enough. That will leave you with unfermented sugar to sweeten it up.

You would them probably have to add champaigne yeast when you bottle to get some carbonation.

REMINDER: I am not a cider maker. I've read some about it, but am by no means an expert. Just a budding scholar.

I'm sure a real cider maker will chime in here with better suggestions than mine.

-walker

Purely on what I've read and a common sense angle, I'd either suggest either an ale yeast, or better yet, a cider yeast.

The champagne yeast is intended to fully ferment anything you throw at, which if you stick with that much brown sugar will give you a very dry cider.

I used White Labs English cider yeast on the batch I currently have aging in secondary. It has retained a noticable amount of flavor without being overly dry, but I only used a pound of brown sugar, so YMMV.

Shoot, I thought I had read that champagne yeast left it sweeter. I've already bought my yeast. Am I doomed to a dry cider unless I buy different yeast?

Not necessarily. Maybe you can let it ferment, and then when it has the right sweetness, throw in those campden tablets to kill the yeast and stop the sugar conversion?

-walker

Yeah, I guess I could. Now, I've just got to decide whether my time/money would be better spent going to the brew shop today and getting the right yeast or going later and getting some campden tablets.

Not really. What a lot of people seem to do is add even more juice in the secondary, or when they bottle, which restores the sweetness and all.

That way you just end up with a good and very alcoholic hard cider. <smiles>

Or yeah, the other way is to use the campden stuff, but either way works. Personally I am still scared of the chemicals.

I have other ideas about how to sweeten it up, but I fear I am talking out of my @$$ since I have never made cider before. I'm sure someone will put me in my place.

One thing that might be an issue with adding campden is: what to do when it comes time to bottle and carbonate? If you pitch more (champagne) yeast, won't they pick up where the other batch left off and start eating sugar.... SO much sugar that your bottles will explode from the abundance of CO2?

Possible options for sweetening:

- MORE sugar. The champagne yeast will eventually stop working when the alcohol content gets too high. additional sugar will be there to sweeten. although... I don't know how you would get it to carbonate.

- lactose. it doesn't ferment and can be used to sweeten.

But, please don't listen to me. Wait for david_42 or caplan or one of the actual cider guys to give you advice.

-walker

Walker said:

- MORE sugar. The champagne yeast will eventually stop working when the alcohol content gets too high. additional sugar will be there to sweeten. although... I don't know how you would get it to carbonate.

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This is an interesting angle. I guess if you don't mind really strong cider (we're talking 14% abv or so), this would work. Then again, I'm no expert myself, so I'm not entirely sure at what point the Champagne yeast would "give up" due to alcohol levels.

hmm. Decisions, decisions. I've got to decide in a couple of hours when I go home whether or not to swing by the brew shop. I'm thinking that I will pick up some ale yeast. I definitely want carbonation. Orfy, do you think I'll still get carbonation if I go with adding more juice later?

I am pretty new to brewing in general, but I have focused my efforts on cider and cyser. I have two brews in the secondary, one in primary and another about to go into the primary later tonight.

I have to say that the White Labs English Cider Yeast is great. I brewed a more natural "farmhouse style" cider from some locally grown and pressed cider that was flash pasturized but unfiltered and unpreserved. I added about 7 pounds of local medium body clover honey. I did have a little problem due to the high initial SG, (1.080, roughly), and the ferment stalled after about a week, but I got it going easily again. I now make a starter before a pitch and I have had no problems.

The point I am getting to though is this: The White Labs English Cider Yeast fermented this heavy batch to dryness, but retained enough residual sweetness that I do not see the need to resweeten it before consumption. I came out of the primary with a wonderful flavor, but a little acidic. Hopefully this will all mellow in the secondary.

On the flip side, I tried using the White Labs Champagne yeast (WLP715 I think) on a batch of perry and it came out VERY dry.

Bottom Line: I will probably use the English Cider Yeast from now on, unless I want to make apple champagne.

My recipe is almost the exact same one. Only difference is, I use all frozen concentrate and make it in 3 gallon batches. One pound of sugar per gallon turns out great, I think you'll really like it.

I start a new primary every 2 weeks, here's what I use for a 3 gallon batch:

8 cans frozen apple juice concentrate
3 pounds cane sugar or light brown sugar
1 packet champagne yeast

Finish filling almost to the top with water, I leave a little room for foaming.
Rack every 2 weeks until it's about 3 months old. Should be cleared by then and that's when I drink it.

I use a blow off tube for the first 2 weeks in the primary, airlocks are to messy for the amount of foaming. Just my opinion, some use airlocks from the get go.

Forgot to mention, I don't use any tablets. At around 3 months when it's clear and no more activity is when I draw off 1/2 gallon or sometimes a gallon at a time to drink. I never have messed around with bottling, usually just drink from a carboy.

Good luck, sure is worth it.

raynor said:

Forgot to mention, I don't use any tablets. At around 3 months when it's clear and no more activity is when I draw off 1/2 gallon or sometimes a gallon at a time to drink. I never have messed around with bottling, usually just drink from a carboy.

Good luck, sure is worth it.

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Yeah, thanks man. I pretty much modeled my recipe after yours. I can't wait already.

Rack every three weeks, huh? I've only got one secondary. I guess I could put it in my bottling bucket, clean the carboy and rerack it... Have you tried Irish Moss?

FilJos said:

I did have a little problem due to the high initial SG, (1.080, roughly), and the ferment stalled after about a week, but I got it going easily again. I now make a starter before a pitch and I have had no problems.

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Quick question...a) how did you know it stalled...what was the rate of bubbles? and b) how did you get it restarted?

Thanks...I made something similar. It's going great, but I want to know what you did because for my third batch I plan on using cider yeast instead to see how it differs, I guess stalling would be my one of my concerns...especially as it gets colder.

Well, it's done for better or worse now. I used two packets of champagne yeast. I rehydrated in warm water and added some juice for good measure. My potential alcohol is 11 percent. I could have a strong drink on my hands.

I've got to say that cider making is pretty sweet. No boiling, no hot break, no cold break, no scrubbing a brew pot...Nice!

corvus said:

Quick question...a) how did you know it stalled...what was the rate of bubbles? and b) how did you get it restarted?

Thanks...I made something similar. It's going great, but I want to know what you did because for my third batch I plan on using cider yeast instead to see how it differs, I guess stalling would be my one of my concerns...especially as it gets colder.

Click to expand...

First the sirlock stopped popping. Then I took hydrometer readings of the course of about four days and saw no change. I suppose that I might have been mistaken, but I'm pretty sure it had stalled. However, I don't think it was the yeasts fault, more likely mine. The White labs English Cider Yeast is suppposed to be able to handle higher gravity jsut fine. I think that what happened was that the wort got cold and halted the ferment. Or not, what do I know?

To get it going again I prepared a yeast starter with another vial of White labs WLP775, English Cider Yeast, two pints of juice, 1/4 cup of honey, a White labs servomyces capsule and 1/8tsp yeast energizer. I warmed the juice over the stove to dissolve the honey and then cooled in by immmersing the pot in a sink of cold water. I put all the ingredients in a sanitized Nalgene bottle, shook it up and then put a stopper and airlock on top and left it over night in a warm place. After 24 hours I pitched the starter into the cider wort (? can you call it wort if its cider?) and within about 4-6 hours after that the airlock was bubbling again to beat the band.

Since then I bought an Erlenmeyer flask to make my starters in, and it works great. As I am typing I have a starter sitting on my kitchen table bubbling away and one of my primarys sitting with a belly full of Christmas Cider wort. I'll probably pitch it all tommorrow.

Well, I just racked to secondary and it is strong and dry! It weighs in at 10 percent according to the hydrometer. It's got a tiny, tiny bit of sweetness, but I think it will work for me. I can't wait to try one carbonated! I've only got one secondary, any tips on making sure it gets clear or clearer?

'Must' is the cider equivelent on Wort.

I was reading somewhere that you can add a sugar substitute for sweetness when bottlinh if you add the campden tablets. It said a little goes A LONG LONG way. I think it was splenda that thay reccomended. that way you dont wory about cider grenades.