Protein and Saccharification Rest Schedule

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Thunder_Chicken

Thunder_Chicken

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I am getting a do-over kit from NB tomorrow to replace a 1-gallon NB White House Honey Ale kit that was shipped with the wrong grains. I've made some similar partial mash ales on my own and want to experiment with the mesh temperatures to see if I can polish up this brew.

I want to dry out some of the malt sweetness, so I was planning to mash ~148F for a full hour. I was also reading that chill haze can be controlled by some degree by a protease rest in the 113-131F range.

I assume that the enzymes denature, so the mash schedule should have the rests increasing with temperature - start at 120 for 30 minutes, then increase to 148 and continue for a full hour. Is this about right?
 
Try using a higher temperature, ~128/130F, 120F is unnecessarily low for modern malts. Modern malting processes leave very little unmodified phytin which is the primary reason for a rest @ 118/120F. By starting at the higher temp you will lessen the chance of "overdoing" it and possibly running into those "detrimental" effects that the don't-do-a-protein-rest contingent warns about.
 
Know the diastatic power (measured in Lintner) of each mashing grain before proceeding. Those under 35 Lintner are not considered to be self-converting. Those well above this number self-convert quite fast.

Examples:

American 2-row = 140 Lintner
Pearl Malt = 60 Lintner
Munich 20L Malt = 20 Lintner
Flaked Wheat = 0 Lintner

The higher the number, the faster starch conversion occurs if held at the appropriate temperatures. This info will help you when designing a mash schedule with your intended recipe.

...as will these links:

http://byo.com/all-grain-brewing/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/
 
Regular Munich, which is 10 Lovibond, is also 70 Lintner. Don't get Lovibond and Lintner confused. They have the same abbreviations (L).

The slightly darker Munich is 20 Lovibond and 25 Lintner.
 
EyePeeA said:
Don't get Lovibond and Lintner confused. They have the same abbreviations (L).
Click to expand...

So, for example, Crystal 120L Malt - is this 120 Linter?

I wish my library had some brewing texts - I need a study guide :drunk: Just when I find a nice hobby to take me away from the technicalities of my engineering day job...figures.
 
NOooooooooooooooo

C-120 is 120 Lovibond - 0 Lintner

Lovibond is a measurement of color. It's completely separate from Lintner with no affiliation.
 
Lol... I would never make that mistake. It's just good to learn these things BEFORE even thinking about that sort of thing.
 
Unless you are making a SMASH don't worry so much about whether the malt you select will self-convert. Most base malts are going to have more than enough diastatic power to convert itself AND all the other malts (e.g. flaked wheat) in your recipe.

Crystal malt does not need to be converted, as it is essentially already converted inside the husk as part of the malting process.



Unless you are using copious amounts of unmalted wheat, you probably don't need to worry so much about a protein rest. I wouldn't worry about protein haze until you are sure that's what is causing clarity issues in your beer. You are more likely to kill that lovely head of foam in your quest to improve clarity that way.
 
EyePeeA said:
Lol... I would never make that mistake. It's just good to learn these things BEFORE even thinking about that sort of thing.
Click to expand...

I've already run into a few situations where I was all ready to pull the trigger on a grain order at NB and then discovered something like this. Thanks for helping me not make 5 gallons of 120 Lovibond wheat paste! :mug:
 
weirdboy said:
Unless you are making a SMASH don't worry so much about whether the malt you select will self-convert. Most base malts are going to have more than enough diastatic power to convert itself AND all the other malts (e.g. flaked wheat) in your recipe.
Click to expand...

ACTUALLY...

Lintner_for_batch = Σ(lintner_for_grain * weight_of_grain) / (total_batch_grain_weight)

So a partial mash using 2 lb of Caramel Malt, 1 pound of chocolate malt, and 1 pound of British Pale malt, with a diastatic power of 50 Lintner. The Caramel and Chocolate malts both have a diastatic power of zero, so they each contribute (0L x 1lbs) and (0L x 2lbs) for a total contribution of zero lintner-pounds. The pale malt is (50L x 1 lb) for a total contribution of 50 L-lbs. Now we add the contributions for all three up (which is 0+0+50) or 50 L-lbs. Now we divide by the total grain weight in the mash which is simply 4 lbs, which leaves an overall average diastatic power of 50/4 or 12.5 Lintner. Since this number is smaller than 30 L needed to convert the overall mash, another few pounds of pale malt or a grain with higher diastatic power might be warranted.
 
weirdboy said:
Unless you are using copious amounts of unmalted wheat, you probably don't need to worry so much about a protein rest. I wouldn't worry about protein haze until you are sure that's what is causing clarity issues in your beer. You are more likely to kill that lovely head of foam in your quest to improve clarity that way.
Click to expand...

Interestingly enough, my recent beers (British ESBs) have been *very* clear even through chilling, but have no head to speak of. But they also have been very malty and sweet. I've been doing the typical 153*F BIAB partial mashes up to this point, putting the grains directly into water at strike temperature (~ 160F depending on grain amount). I'd love to get a decent head on these British style beers and dry them out a bit.
 
EyePeeA said:
ACTUALLY...

Lintner_for_batch = Σ(lintner_for_grain * weight_of_grain) / (total_batch_grain_weight)

So a partial mash using 2 lb of Caramel Malt, 1 pound of chocolate malt, and 1 pound of British Pale malt, with a diastatic power of 50 Lintner. The Caramel and Chocolate malts both have a diastatic power of zero, so they each contribute (0L x 1lbs) and (0L x 2lbs) for a total contribution of zero lintner-pounds. The pale malt is (50L x 1 lb) for a total contribution of 50 L-lbs. Now we add the contributions for all three up (which is 0+0+50) or 50 L-lbs. Now we divide by the total grain weight in the mash which is simply 4 lbs, which leaves an overall average diastatic power of 50/4 or 12.5 Lintner. Since this number is smaller than 30 L needed to convert the overall mash, another few pounds of pale malt or a grain with higher diastatic power might be warranted.
Click to expand...

Chocolate malt and caramel malt don't need to be converted. One is roasted, and thus has no starches to convert, and the other one is already converted in the husk. It's like you didn't even read what I wrote before. The pound of pale malt will DEFINITELY self convert in your hypothetical situation, unless you are doing something profoundly stupid like mashing at 180F. If you are really worried about conversion in this scenario, you don't need to put the caramel or roasted grain in with the mash, because as I already said, no conversion is needed for either one. But you shouldn't be worried, because it's a non-issue.
 
Thunder_Chicken said:
Interestingly enough, my recent beers (British ESBs) have been *very* clear even through chilling, but have no head to speak of. But they also have been very malty and sweet. I've been doing the typical 153*F BIAB partial mashes up to this point, putting the grains directly into water at strike temperature (~ 160F depending on grain amount). I'd love to get a decent head on these British style beers and dry them out a bit.
Click to expand...



It would be better if you posted the recipe, including any mash steps, etc. for these beers. I would also include your hops additions, as that can have an effect on head formation and retention as well.
 
weirdboy said:
Chocolate malt and caramel malt don't need to be converted. One is roasted, and thus has no starches to convert, and the other one is already converted in the husk. It's like you didn't even read what I wrote before. The pound of pale malt will DEFINITELY self convert in your hypothetical situation, unless you are doing something profoundly stupid like mashing at 180F. If you are really worried about conversion in this scenario, you don't need to put the caramel or roasted grain in with the mash, because as I already said, no conversion is needed for either one. But you shouldn't be worried, because it's a non-issue.
Click to expand...

?????????????? Are you reading what I wrote? I obviously know crystal and chocolate don't need to be converted. I was giving a loose example of why diastatic power is an important thing to consider in a recipe. You basically said it was unmportant unless it was a SMaSH brew.
 
EyePeeA, let's take your weird partial mash recipe that has 2 lbs caramel, 1 lb chocolate, and 1 lb British Pale.

Now think about what happens if you mash JUST THE PALE MALT by itself, then steep the chocolate and caramel. You get 100% conversion, and get all the sugar from the caramel and roasty flavors and aromas from the chocolate.

Now think about what is actually happening in the mash. A bunch of alpha and beta amylase enzymes are scooting around, looking for starches to convert. Flaked wheat has a lot of such starches, but no enzymes, so you need to pair up your flaked wheat with pale malt, etc. to borrow some of its enzymes, so that both convert.

Now what happens when you have 1 lb of pale malt, and 3 lbs of flavoring (but no starches)? The enzymes will still be able to convert the starches from the pale malt, because there are no other starches that need to be converted in that mash.
 
Weirdboy, that weird recipe was provided exactly as quoted in the Beersmith link that I provided earlier. If you managed to click into the link, you would realize that truth.

I am fully aware of the conversion that happens during the mash. My point is that conversion will take LONGER than usual if your diastatic power is LOWER than usual... up to a point. And if the final diastatic power is less than 35, very little conversion is happening and you will be left with a starchy beer. With 7,379 posts vs. 209... it seems that YOU still have a lot to learn. I would advise not bashing someone's advice if you are not fully aware as to what you are talking about.
 
weirdboy said:
It would be better if you posted the recipe, including any mash steps, etc. for these beers. I would also include your hops additions, as that can have an effect on head formation and retention as well.
Click to expand...

Here you go. It is a partial mash. I would love to dry this out a bit. The crystal and MO were mashed per the schedule - the LME was a late addition which (to my limited understanding) ups the IBUs of the hops.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't just buy a bottle of amylase enzyme and just dump it in all of my brews. It always seems that malty sweetness is very dominant in my brews. I do like well done commercial English bitters, but my attempts at reproducing them have really not hit the mark.

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (ESB)
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 1.5 gallons
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.058
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 5.86%
IBU (tinseth): 36.39
SRM (morey): 11.47

FERMENTABLES:
0.25 lb - United Kingdom - Crystal 140L (6.7%)
0.5 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (13.3%)
3 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Light (80%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Fuggles for 45 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.8, IBU: 22.01)
1 oz - Kent Goldings for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 5.8, IBU: 14.38)

MASH STEPS:
1) Temperature, Temp: 153 F, Time: 30 min, Amount: 6 qt

YEAST:
Danstar - Nottingham Ale Yeast
Starter: Yes
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 77%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 57 - 70 F
Fermentation Temp: 65 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Table sugar
Amount: 1/4 cup in water, 2.2 volumes
 
EyePeeA said:
?????????????? Are you reading what I wrote? I obviously know crystal and chocolate don't need to be converted. I was giving a loose example of why diastatic power is an important thing to consider in a recipe. You basically said it was unmportant unless it was a SMaSH brew.
Click to expand...

Knock it off.

If you "obviously know crystal and chocolate don't need to be converted", why use them in an example.

This is ridiculous.

Most base malts, if not all, have not only sufficient power to self convert they can convert other malts. Using examples that don't make sense don't prove your case.

Let's get back on topic here, and discuss the protein and saccharification schedule.

With fully modified malts, if I do a protein rest I do it at a higher temperature- often 131-133, and keep it very short.
 
Thunder_Chicken said:
I'm wondering if I shouldn't just buy a bottle of amylase enzyme and just dump it in all of my brews.
Click to expand...

Certainly not!

I'd suggest doing your partial mash with those ingredients, and then adding the extract at the end of the boil.

One thing to consider is that one of the reasons for excess sweetness could be underbittering. That sounds like the case if the finished beer is too sweet, but still fully attenuated.

What as the OG and the FG of the beers that you are tasting as too sweet? My guess is that they are ok, but underbittered (as in that recipe above).
 
Thunder_Chicken,

OK well I can tell you right now that your mash temp isn't going to have a profound impact on the fermentability of that wort, because it's almost all extract. That half a pound of Maris Otter will certainly improve the flavor profile, but I wouldn't worry too much about mashing at 148F vs 154F as almost all of your sugars are coming from elsewhere that you don't really have much control over in that respect.

Also, 6qt is quite a lot of water for less than one pound of grain. It's not outside the realm of possibility that your pH might be a concern with a ratio like that, which could lead to excess tannins and astringency issues. It's *probably* not an issue, but since it's an easy fix I would reduce that to maybe 1.5-2 quarts for the PM, and as I mentioned in previous posts, another option is that you can increase the percentage of Maris Otter (vs extract) in the recipe, then steep your crystal malt afterwards. That would probably give you a bit more control over things with the mash.

Are you doing a partial boil--that is, are you starting with ~3.5 gallons pre-boil, boiling down to 2.5, then racking to a fermenter, or are you starting with and boiling to some smaller amount and then topping off?



Yooper makes a good point too about the IBUs being suspiciously low for an ESB. It's sort of at the low end of the range, and if your beer is finishing a bit higher on the FG those two factors combined can make for a beer that tastes much too sweet.
 
Follow EyePeeA's advice if you're brewing with a significant amount of unconverted grain. Follow weirdboy's advice if you're brewing with a very minimilistic amount of unconverted grain.

Problem solved.
 
Yooper said:
What as the OG and the FG of the beers that you are tasting as too sweet? My guess is that they are ok, but underbittered (as in that recipe above).
Click to expand...

Per my notes OG was measured to be 1.058 and FG was 1.014, pretty close to predicted by the calculator. My hop schedule was set to produce an OG/IBU ratio in the balanced to slightly hoppy range on this chart:

https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/data/1/ibuguchart.jpg

The beers have some bitterness, but they are definitely on the sweet malty side, and aging is slowly killing off the bitterness.
 
Is there a reason you did 45 min hops addition for your bittering hops?

Anyway, I think I would bump up the bittering addition maybe 40-50% and see how you like it then. Hops definitely will fade over time, too, and at the same time you'll develop some oxidative flavors in your beer. The best way to prevent that in you remaining stash is to refrigerate it if possible.
 
Yooper said:
Well, because you're saying the beer is too sweet. And that probably means it's underbittered.
Click to expand...

I agree, but how could I determine that beforehand? Absent experience the calculators are the best first guess-timate that one can make. I don't know (yet) what 33 IBUs tastes like.

The way this beer hits my tongue is first a bite of bitterness followed by a tidal wave of sweet, sticky malt. Upping bitterness would probably help, but something is screwed up in the balance and I can't quite pin it down. It is malty and it just won't quit.
 
Thunder_Chicken said:
I agree, but how could I determine that beforehand? Absent experience the calculators are the best first guess-timate that one can make. I don't know (yet) what 33 IBUs tastes like.

The way this beer hits my tongue is first a bite of bitterness followed by a tidal wave of sweet, sticky malt. Upping bitterness would probably help, but something is screwed up in the balance and I can't quite pin it down. It is malty and it just won't quit.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it's the crystal malt, if your recipe is accurate. It's rare for a really tasty recipe to have nearly 7% of crystal 140L- that would taste like raisins and toffee.

Try cutting the crystal malt (this is a one gallon batch, right?) to half of what you have in the recipe, and increasing the bittering hops to 60 minutes.
 
Yooper said:
Perhaps it's the crystal malt, if your recipe is accurate. It's rare for a really tasty recipe to have nearly 7% of crystal 140L- that would taste like raisins and toffee.

Try cutting the crystal malt (this is a one gallon batch, right?) to half of what you have in the recipe, and increasing the bittering hops to 60 minutes.
Click to expand...

It's a 2.5 gallon batch.
 
I think it is the Crystal that is kicking my butt.

I think I need to back away from the Crystal for a while and maybe do some very simple single-grain brews. Maybe I should just brew a straight extract (I've heard that Muntons Light DME is all pale 2-row, and Northern Brewer sells Maris Otter liquid extract). A pure extract brew should ferment out about as dry as it is possible to get, right? Then once I know what the baseline is I could then start adding in specialty grains and working up to partial mash.
 
Muntons Light DME is a mixture of English 2-row (not Maris Otter), carapils, and light crystal.

Muntons Extra Light DME is a mixture of English 2-row and carapils.

Pure extract beer styles do not ferment out as well as their partial mash or all grain counterparts. With pure extract, you have zero control on mash temp. and very low control on grain selection and %'s of those grains. If you want more dryness, extract brews require about 7-12% simple sugars and enough vigorous healthy attenuating yeast to dry out a couple points closer, and even then, they probably won't turn out as dry as a mashed AG/PM version.
 
Isn't DME simply spray-dried wort? I thought that it was basically the product of a mash process - mixed with water, heated at rests to convert starches, and then spray dried? If they were to do a low temperature conversion, wouldn't the DME be just as dry as doing the same mash at home?
 
It would be convenient if maltsters illustrated their ingredients, amount of ingredients, mash time, and mash temps, but they usually don't provide this info. The grain they used to create the DME is presumably being mashed in the mid 150s for 45-60 minutes and then boiled under pressure before being spray-dried.

So say if you used 50% 2-row and 50% Extra Light DME in an IPA recipe. You would have 50% control over the final mash temperature, but it would have to be a ballpark guess considering you are using a portion of extract.

Example: If you employed a 146 F mash temp vs. the 154 F "guess" of a mash temp that the maltster possibly relied on... then on a good day, you might equalize to somewhere around a 150 F. Do you see how an extract or partial mash brewer would never get close to an all-grain brewer chose to fully mash at 146 F? Mash temp is directly related to the fermentability of the wort.
 
Let me see if I have this right - if you mash at a lower temperature (let's say 147F) vs a higher temperature (155F), both are achieving some conversion of starch to sugar from the alpha and beta amylase reactions, but the sugars produced at the higher temperature are more complex / less fermentable than those produced at the lower temperature. Is this a correct summary?

So the reason that so many kit instructions say to mash at 150+ might be a nod to the fact that the average bloke might like a maltier, sweeter, heavier bodied brew. And similarly, DME manufacturers are pitching to a similar audience.

I see now why a lot of extract recipes have added dextrose or table sugar - they are trying to get the ABV up to proper levels without relying so much on LME/DME that might have a lot of unfermentable sugars.

So how would one balance malt and hops in a recipe with added sugar? In the extreme I could have a wort of pure table sugar boiled with hops - the OG/IBU ratio might look fine but I would essentially have a very dry, low body, bitter hop tea vs. beer.
 

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