Keggle: Electric Vs Propane?

I have just ordered my parts to finish my Keggle, MLT was done last week. I still have no way to heat this so am looking at options. My first instinct is a big ol burner and propane. But where I currently live there is no garage and it is cold for 5 months of the year outside and can handle the cold especially if beer is involved but there is an Dryer outlet in the kitchen and I am a decent electrician. Before I finish my keggle I want to know my options.

Consider this an informal survey

Do you use a burner or electric and what do you consider the advantages of your setup?

Electric is better in every way as far as I am concerned.

It's easily controlled (just manually switch a relay or add PID control easily)

Can be shut off and on instantly (like if you are about to have a boilover)

No open flame

It's absolutely quiet

It's cheaper ($0.06 per kWh for me)

It doesn't produce harmful gas, so I can brew inside without worries

You don't have to refill or lug tanks around

It's absolutely repeatable... i.e. I know I can pump 3500W of heat in every boil and always have the same evaporation rate.

It's tremendously more efficient. My 7000 watt HLT (roughly 24000 BTUs) will outperform a 100,000 BTU propane burner.

I have electric, I love electric.

It is compact, clean, quiet and easy to control.

No refills, no CO emissions

I love electric brewing.

My 9000W BK is 30,600 BTUS, about the equivilent of 100,000 BTUS on a gas burner.

All well and good for electric, but it intimidates me where to even begin to put something together with control boxes, relays, pids? lol.....

tomy2 said:

All well and good for electric, but it intimidates me where to even begin to put something together with control boxes, relays, pids? lol.....

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It can be, luckily we have some very experienced electric builders and brewers here on HBT with a wealth of knowlege

Electric all the way. Power costs me about $0.12 kwh, Say I run both elements at 100% for 3 hours (I think I am way over estimating here) using 5.275 kW works out to be a $2.07 worth of electricity. That and I can brew inside.

In my sig there is a link to an electrical primer. It's still a work in progress so there are bits and pieces scattered through out it. This weekend I think I am going to put a generic electrical drawing together for the controls and such for people to reference.

Thanks...that would be great!

There's something about brewing outside on the deck, looking at the lake, that I love. There's also a lot to be said about having a basement(I don't) and being able to stay inside and make beer like a scientist with lots of control. Fire and electricity both have their advantages you'll just have to decide how intense you want to get about the hobby.

As soon as I have a lake in my backyard I will have to start brewing out my back porch as well in the mean time I will be looking into electric. I actually can see the joys to brewing outside over propane and if I still lived in Louisiana I could rationalize a big burner for crawfish boils, which goes really good with beer.

I will do some searching for designs but if any ones wants to post some links for electric keggle designs for me to start looking at I'd appreciate it.

Are all you electric indoor brewers using a range hood or similar to vent boiloff vapor? If not, do you get condensation buildup on the ceiling?

I brew in my garage with all electric and it can get a little steamy in there so I crack the garage door when I am boiling. Otherwise its quiet, warm, and pretty relaxing. I am thinking of building some sort of fan/hood system to vet out through the roof.

I'm thinking of going electric in my basement and using the dryer vent to exhaust steam. I have several vent fans/motors saved from over the range microwaves I could press into service.

With it being in direct contact with an element, do you guys ever worry about scorching your wort?

I do not have a fume hood and I do not see any condensation built up on the walls or ceiling. It is a fairly large room and I turn the two ceiling fans on during the boil. The back sliding glass door is usually opened or cracked. I do get condensation on the windows and sliding glass door.

A fume hood or steam extractor is in my future.

E-keggle. I used to worry about my propane tank running dry in the middle of a boil. No more. Plus, great control over temp.

TheAleMaster said:

With it being in direct contact with an element, do you guys ever worry about scorching your wort?

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Only if you are using HDW elements. Most people use LWD or ULWD elements in the BK.

TheAleMaster said:

With it being in direct contact with an element, do you guys ever worry about scorching your wort?

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The ULWD (ultra low watt density) elements won't cause darkening of the wort. I reached into my wort and touched it once!

Photopilot said:

As soon as I have a lake in my backyard I will have to start brewing out my back porch as well in the mean time I will be looking into electric. I actually can see the joys to brewing outside over propane and if I still lived in Louisiana I could rationalize a big burner for crawfish boils, which goes really good with beer.

I will do some searching for designs but if any ones wants to post some links for electric keggle designs for me to start looking at I'd appreciate it.

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Here is my build from last year. Converting only a BK is pretty easy. Things get a little more complicated when you add the pumps and an HLT heater to the mix. Here is my HERMS build and panel.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bling-bling-electric-herms-conversion-93217/

So you can visualize this.

HWD elements are rated around 150W/sq inch
LWD elements are rated around 75w/sq inch
ULWD elements are rated at around 50W/sq inch

As you can see, HWD elements then have a much hotter surface temp.

LWD elements take that wattage/sq in. and cut it in half.

ULWD elements reduce it by another 17% or so.

Your largest decrease in watt density is HWD to LWD elements, ULDW elements can get to be awfully long and that can cause design issues if they exceed the diameter of your kettle (mounting horizontally) or cause you to require a large volume in your kettle to keep the tip submerged (mounting vertically)

TheAleMaster said:

With it being in direct contact with an element, do you guys ever worry about scorching your wort?

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I don't think there is much difference between an electric element and a 100k BTU propane burner heating up the bottom of a kettle. I've never seen it be an issue.

beltbuckle said:

I don't think there is much difference between an electric element and a 100k BTU propane burner heating up the bottom of a kettle. I've never seen it be an issue.

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It is different though, it is all about BTUs and surface area.

A 100K BTU burner is only actually applying maybe 40% of those BTUs to the kettle at FULL power. The surface area of the bottom of the kettle is pretty large compared to the surface area of the element. So 40K BTUS over the entire bottom and some of the sides of the kettle. An element is putting 100% of it;s BTUS into the wort across a much smaller area.

Also, these elements are ON and OFF... a gas burner is not. You arent boiling for an hour at full throttle, 100K BTUs... you are boiling with much less (15,000 BTUs). These elements, when they are heating, ARE 100% ON... there is no throttling them. So, you are getting 100% output when they are on, on a small surface area, for an hour or more.

HWD elements have caused scorching for some users, I have not seen or heard of this issue with LWD or ULDW elements.

The only time I have had scorching is when I was heating mash water in my RIMS. The flow control valve was shut way too much and when the water got to about 160 deg it started to flash boil, turning it into a 1psi pressure cooker. What ever was in the HEX burnt and smelt horrid. I wouldn't blame the element though, it was an operator error.

TBH I think it is very difficult to scorch the wort in an open boil kettle. If you fill a pot full of water and put it in the oven and set it to Broil, the temp of the pot will not get above 212deg UNTIL all of the water has boiled off. So the boiling water will carry away all of that extra heat energy.

The only way scorching occurs is when the sugar is directly touching the element and is conducting/insulating heat from the element to the liquid. (If you have ever dumped LME in on a hot burner you will have discovered this). But with sugars and everything in suspension, I can't imagine the sugars getting too far beyond caramelizing temps (occurring ON the element). Now specific heat does change as the specific gravity does but I don't believe we are condensing the sugars down enough to make that much of a difference. It's not like we are making LME That is just speculation on my part though.

One way to find out.... Some one want to send me a 5500W HD element?

The Pol said:

... no CO emissions.....

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Pol, coal fired electric plants are one of the single largest contributers of CO emmisions.

McCuckerson said:

Pol, coal fired electric plants are one of the single largest contributers of CO emmisions.

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Not in my garage though

The Pol said:

Not in my garage though

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Nice! Any hits on the HERMS?

McCuckerson said:

Nice! Any hits on the HERMS?

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It is sold, it is in Yoopers house now.

OK Parts for the keggle are on the way.

What are my options for going electric?

What is the easiest or cheapest option?

Links to the wiring for it?

Is a 240 V GFCI needed? I would not mind putting one in but it is a rental, I plan on possibly moving soon and don't want to invest in this place.....But also don't want to die brewing

Thanks

Photopilot said:

OK Parts for the keggle are on the way.

What are my options for going electric?

What is the easiest or cheapest option?

Links to the wiring for it?

Is a 240 V GFCI needed? I would not mind putting one in but it is a rental, I plan on possibly moving soon and don't want to invest in this place.....But also don't want to die brewing

Thanks

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You could put one 'in line'. Just buy a small one breaker box.

Hermit said:

You could put one 'in line'. Just buy a small one breaker box.

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Awesome idea. That way I could buy one that fits in "my" houses CB box and use it where ever I end up till I get to move home.

Photopilot said:

Awesome idea. That way I could buy one that fits in "my" houses CB box and use it where ever I end up till I get to move home.

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Yep. Just make it into an extension cord type contraption. It also gives you a little flexibility in terms of moving the equipment a little.

I'm going to go electric soon (got a brewtroller this week and need to get the panel/some other parts together) and am wondering about using an immersion chiller with the electric element in there. Do people just set it on the element (doesn't seem like a good idea at all), build "stilts", or ditch it and go counterflow/plate?

When I had an IC i would set it right on top of the element. no problems. You will find though that a tall IC will probably stick a good ways out of the wort now. I made a lower profile one and then just went to an IC.

buffalobrewer said:

I'm going to go electric soon (got a brewtroller this week and need to get the panel/some other parts together) and am wondering about using an immersion chiller with the electric element in there. Do people just set it on the element (doesn't seem like a good idea at all), build "stilts", or ditch it and go counterflow/plate?

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I suggest you look at no-chill brewing. You will no longer need your IC, or you can do what I did and turn your IC into a HEX for your HERMS. Chilling is a waste, I don't even do it anymore.