lots of matter in must

Thanks for any help/advice you can offer... I might just be freaking out because $70+ and 6+ gallons of mead are on the line...

I just racked my first big batch of mead. I have a slight issue I wanted to check on. I decided not to boil my big batch as that seems to be the consensus among people who seem to go into lots of detail about procedure... I decided to get the wort up to 178Fish in hopes that would sterilize the honey without destroying the character (I know the hightest directions say 115, but I was scared I might get an infection).

Anyway, now that it's racked I see lots of stuff (whitish matter) floating around in there (I shake the hell out of the 6.5gallon carboy when I rack brews)... Is this the stuff that would have been skimmed if it was simmered/boiled??? Should I be concerned??? The matter is settling out of it, but I wanted to know if it was something the yeast might react with and ruin my batch/give killer hangovers, like waxes... I skimmed my 1 gallon test batch (not much came out, but it was not brewed with the same ingredients); I also simmered it because I had not yet read sources that said otherwise.

The honey I used was 12lb raw orange blossom from William's... it had gone to sugar a little (had it since april) and when I got it you could see a lot of matter (bee parts and other stuff I assume), but dissolved nicely and looked clear in the brew kettle... I also used 5.5lb local clover honey (clear typical filtered?)...

here are some pics: 2hrs after racking, yeast not yet added.

w/ flash... you can see the junk floating down after I slid it across the counter to take pics... the below "cloud" was already present... more started to fall when I moved the carboy







these two are with the flash off... the initial stuff that settled out left a big "cloud" in the middle bottom of the carboy, with a layer across the entire bottom... when I moved it it caused more to start falling... as you can see in pic 1




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more complete recipe:

2 brew pots:

brew pot 1:
1.5gallon h20 brought to a boil with 2oz heather tips, turn off heat
12lbs william's orange blossom honey (described above)
brought back to 178F (read that was temp of inoculation somewhere...) then let cool some
racked into 6.5gallon carboy with 2 gallons h20, heather tips filtered out (also noticed some white scum on funnel filter...)

brew pot 2
1gallon h20 brought to a boil and added 3tsp fermax (DAP) & 3tsp yeast energizer (w/DAP,yeast hulls,MgSO4,vit.B complex)
5.5lb local clover honey added after heat turned down
brought back to 178F and then let cool some
racked into carboy

yeild ~6 gallons... comes up maybe half an inch shy of where the carboy tapers, hoping that is enough head space for adding stepped nutrients and mixing..

Haven't take OG yet... guessing b/t 1.113 and 1.120

planning to use Lavlin 71B and expect a semi-dry result... (I wish I would have bought 2 packs, but only have 5g... says it is good for 6 gallons, but... I plan on re-hydrating only in water)
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side issue (posted as a new thread):

I like supporting my local home brew store, so my "DAP" is Fermax... and I don't have superfood or fermaid, but rather "yeast energizer" (ingredients above) ... both are from "Crosby and Baker"... I hope I didn't use too much... I know hightest says at innoc. you should use a little less than 1 tsp DAP, and ~2tsp superfood or 1 tsp fermaid...

Does anyone know how what I have compares, or how much I should use??? I still plan on adding more at the recommended intervals down to 2/3 OG

I am not sure how those compare to my stuff, so I erred on the side of adding a little extra... I put 3tsp Fermax (label calls for 1tsp/gallon, so I cut that in half) and 3tsp yeast energizer (label calls for 1/2tsp gallon, so I used the recommended amount)...

Well considering you said the carboy was shook quite a bit and you had only honey I am going to assume it is flocculated yeast. A pic would be helpful if you could provide it.

Also I am a firm believer of the no heat method personally. I have done dozens of batches without an infection, honey is awesome like that.

I have not added the yeast!

mr_y82 said:

I have not added the yeast!

Click to expand...

Ah, missed that part. I wouldnt worry personally

Thanks bubbachunk. I'd say that's good advice; I'll try to take it, lol... maybe someone else will tell me specifically why I shouldn't worry...

pics moved to OP. I hope 5 grams of yeast will be enough!

Ok...take a big breath...RDWHAHB....

lol... sorry and thanks. Going to the fridge now.

some if it (that seen in the bottom) seems to be mostly heather residue that passed through the strainer and funnel screen... the rest is coagulated proteins and wax particles (got some help at gotmead).

It has been fermenting 10 days; I am still getting one bubble in my S-airlock every 7 seconds or so. It fermented really strongly for a number of days before slowing. I aerated for 4 days, but did not add anything. Tastes pretty decent, though it is (obviously) still very sweet. No funky odors (i.e. the sulphur odor I got with my 1 gallon test batch with cote de blancs at 74-76F... I added some boiled bread yeast and splash racked that one and now it's doing good).

OG 1112
SG 1060

Should it have dropped more by now? Should I add any additional nutrients/energizer/boiled yeast? I have not added any more since inoculation (3tsp nutrient, 3tsp energizer). I noticed mine is a little slower than those timelines in Hightest's guide, but I didn't step nutrients...

Thanks.

EDIT:

as per feedback at gotmead I have swirled the carboy (with airlock on) for long enough to work the yeast back into suspension... I will do this every other day for a few days and if I don't see some progress I will boil a few tsp of bread yeast and add it as a nutrient (so I don't add inorganic nitrogen at this point...)...

Any other advice?

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from gotmead: http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18941

YogiBearMead726 said:

I have a couple of thoughts on your situation. First off, what temperature is this fermenting at? If it's cold, like under 65F, that could be causing it to crawl along. If it needs to be warmer, just wrap a blanket or two around the carboy, and stick it somewhere warmer or maybe even wrap an electric blanket around it on a lower setting. From the few times I've used 71B I've had greater success at temperatures around 70F.

Secondly, if you'd like to add more nutrients, I'd shy away from what you've already added. At this point, the yeast won't be able to properly metabolize inorganic nitrogen (ie DAP which is present in both commercial nutrients and energizer). You'll want to add either organic nitrogen like Fermaid O (not Fermaid K which contains roughly 30% DAP by weight) or if you don't have access to that, boil some bread yeast and add that for some more nutrients.

I'd also suggest swirling some of the yeast up into suspension. Mind you, you don't want to aerate it like before, so leave the airlock on and swirl the carboy until the yeast gets put back into suspension. This will get the active yeast back up into the must where they can ferment the remaining sugars easier and have the added benefit of utilizing the dead yeast cells as a crude fining agent. Do this once every other day or three, and fermentation may well finish all on it's own without additional nutrients.

Feel free to PM me if you have any other concerns. I might not be at the "mentor" level of mead making yet, but I'm more than happy to share any info I have.

Good luck, and keep everyone posted on the progress of the batch!

Click to expand...

Thanks. It has been fermenting between 68-72F (swing of night vs. day). I might try the bread yeast thing again. When I did my 1 gallon batch I added 2 tsp boiled yeast. Should I keep the ratio the same (that would be almost 12 tsp... seems like too much), or should it be reduced say to just a few tsp?

YogiBearMead726 said:

I'd just use a few tsp worth. It's easier to add more later than it is to backtrack after adding too much. If you did add 12 tsp, you might risk a bread-like yeasty flavor in the finished product that might not be very appealing.

Before you add the boiled yeast, I'd try swirling the carboy and see if that doesn't help things get going.

As for reposting, go for it. Always good to share info.

Click to expand...

Sounds good. I will give it a good swirl this evening and if I don't see some increased activity in few days I will add the yeast (I just don't want to wait too long as I have read most nutrient should be added before the halfway point...). I'm not exactly sure how to judge these things since this is my first big batch... the small batch with OG of 1.080 was more down the alley of a long time homebrewer, like myself... this higher OG stuff is new to me.

YogiBearMead726 said:

This is certainly true for inorganic sources of nitrogen like DAP. But boiled yeast and Fermaid O can be added safetly at any point in fermentation.

It has more to do with the life cycle of yeast than anything. During aerobic fermentation, the yeast need lots of oxygen and are able to process DAP very easily. However, at around the 1/3-1/2 way point, the yeast switch gears into anaerobic fermentation. At that point, oxygen and inorganic nitrogen is a hinderance to fermentation. Buy organic nitrogen like boiled yeast will still be easily assimilated by the fermenting yeast even after the halfway point.

It still might be a good option to swirl for a couple of days before taking action with additional nutrients from the boiled yeast.

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Will do. Thanks again.

gotmead progress... I won't typically do this, but I posted this problem at both sites.

Medsen Fey said:

Another thing to consider here is the pH. One common reason for a slow fermentation in a traditional mead is a pH that drops too low (below about 3.2). If you can check the pH here, that may point to a problem that can be easily corrected.

Your nutrient additions were a little light here, and adding a bit more Fermax wouldn't be a bad idea (another 1.5 tsp to pick a number).

I didn't see if you aerated this batch after pitching. That's a common issue with brewers who try meads - the concern about oxygen exposure cause folks to give the yeast too little and results in less yeast growth and inadequate biomass to complete fermentation. If you haven't aerated this batch, give it one good aeration (but carefully or you'll be mopping the ceiling )

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mr_y82 said:

Thanks. I aerated the heck out of it before pitching, after pitching, and a couple times a day for the first 4 days. It's in a carboy, so I took the top off hoping some O2 would make it's way in before and during aeration.

I think maybe activity is up slightly since I swirled the yeast back in (though much settled back out quickly). Maybe I will add a little boiled fermax/bread yeast this evening and give it a good shake... for now it's off to work.

No way currently to check the PH... I'll have to research how to remedy such a problem.

Thanks again.

Click to expand...

mr_y82 said:

I boiled 1.5 tsp fermax, .5 tsp energizer, and a few tsp bread yeast for 5 minutes, let it cool for a little bit, added to the carboy, aerated and mixed very well, bringing all the yeast back into (at least temporary) suspension. 2 hours later the bubbling in the S-airlock has doubled from every 6 to 3 seconds... maybe the mead just needed this little kick. I had intended to do stepped nutrients, but since I was not sure of what I had and how it compared to other products I shied away from it...

I'll post progress and results.... but expect a few more questions, esp. while I get my bearings... I need to anticipate more questions/problems so I can address them more appropriately and timely.

As always, thanks for the help.

Click to expand...

12/29/11 racked to secondary... still got that rocket fuel edge, but time, patience, and time should make this nice... 15% w/ SG of .998... but still a little sweetness.

Issue #1 - you are a beer brewer... Beer brewers are necessarily obsessed with PROCESS.... You are not brewing Beer... You are making Mead... Mead is Honey Wine....

It's different... VERY different! In Beer world - You can start with the same, exact list of base ingredients and yeast and make 100 different types of beer depending on your process.... If you start with Merlot grapes and Merlot wine yeast - you make Merlot wine..... You won't get Cabarnet or Zinfandel or Shiraz no matter how much you want it....

The Quality of Wine is heavily determined by the Ingredients... In this case - the Honey, Yeast, Water, Nutrients, and finally - Aging control the final quality of the mead - provided you can just leave it alone to do it's thing.... Process wise - so long as you don't make too many mistakes, it will be OK.... This is very different from Beer - where if you aren't somewhat obsessive about Process, you won't get a beer that bears any resemblance to what you were trying to make....

Don't take this as an insult - Wine makers can run into the same issue when trying to make beer... They focus in on the highest quality ingredients and the right yeasts, and don't pay as much attention to the process... and get weird results.... until they learn about the importance of the Process....

Anyway - let it be.... It will be fine. With 15% ABV - you will probably need to let it sit 2-3 years for it to really come into it's own and be totally delicious.... It will probably be pretty darn good in a year, though...

Thanks

Thanks for the adive, but just in case you got the wrong idea, I was not complaining... I always taste my hydrometer samples and, if anything, I waited a couple extra weeks before racking to secondary... Any impatient impluse I have can be put off with my back to back to back beer projects and my weaker trial run of mead (which tastes rather appealing at 5 months).

No offense intended... just didn't think I had an issue, just offering an update... too many threads are seemingly missing conclusions that would be helpful to anyone who happens across them doing research (I mellowed out since the OP... it's been a while and the mead has been looking good... sitting in a corner, covered with a towel... mostly being ignored, as it should). :smile:

cheers.

Gotcha... Sorry about that... I do appreciate the update.... I think you more or less have it right... Leave it be a while longer if it still tastes like paint thinner....

We run into "Over processing" with Mead and Wine .. kinda like when the wine guys show up on the Beer boards with questions like "I got ahold of the rarest, original land race Ethiopian Barley and Bavarian Hops and Yeast from the Pharoh's tomb... Tried to make beer and it tastes all weird and bitter... What went wrong?" You ask about process and get...

"Well, I used tap water, and mashed it for a while, I forget how long... I boiled it till it looked thick, cooled it off, and pitched yeast." You ask... "Did you strain off any of the grain, hulls, or the the clumpy Trub stuff" and they say "I thought you leave all that stuff in there to add body... You know, Tannins?"

And you say "!"

Thanks

haha...

No problem. I really do appreciate the feedback. I'm just here to learn and maybe even (occasional) help someone; though advice sought may (severely) outweigh advice given. I understand the impulse to assume I was some nutty kid trying to drink 2 month old fire in a carboy... as george carlin said:

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

Thanks again.