Way, way, way over the top Sam Adams Utopia clone

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paulthenurse

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Ok guys, a friend and I have agreed that we're going to try to brew a Utopia Clone just after Christmas. We've both had it before so we at least have tasted what we're trying to replicate. From information gathered from a ton of sources we've cobbled together this recipie. We're going to aim for 20 gallons going into the pots, boiled down to ten gallons of final product. Tell me what you think of the recipie. It's not a perfect clone, I know Sam has a starting point of 48*Plato and we're only around 42. We've talked about adding some malt extract to boost ours up, we're still negotiating on that, I want to keep it all grain. We'll also be adding either sherry or champagne yeast (if we can't get sherry which according to our local guy is hard to get) and we'll be aging it on oak chips for probably a year. I'm thinking about how to replicate the taste profiles they get from the time SA keeps the beer in old whiskey and sherry barrels

I know Pummba and Landhoney were both talking about taking a shot at this some time ago, dows anyone know how that turned out?


Anyways, heres our recipie

Recipe Type All Grain
Batch Size 10 gal. Boiled down from 20 gallons at start of boil

Predicted Original Gravity 1.188 @ 60 °F

Predicted Terminal Gravity 1.034 @ 60 °F

Mash Efficiency 80 %

Total Grain/Extract 70.00 lbs.

Calories (12 fl. oz.) 782.1



40 lbs. American 2-row
15 lbs. American 6-row Pale
3 lbs. American Caramel 60°L
3 lbs. Toasted Pale Malt
1 lbs. Melanoidin Malt
4 lbs. Munich Malt
1.5 lbs. German Smoked

2.5 lbs. Maple Syrup added with 15 minutes left in boil

2 oz. Tettnanger (Whole, 4.50 %AA) boiled 60 min.
2 oz. Spalt Spalter (Whole, 4.75 %AA) boiled 60 min.
2 oz. Hallertau (Whole, 4.50 %AA) boiled 30 min.
2 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (Whole, 4.50 %AA) boiled 10 min.

Yeast : White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale

Original 41.75 °Plato
Attenuation 79.6 % 63.1 %
Extract 8.53 °Plato
Alcohol 21.1 % ABV


PTN
 
Holy Crap....never had the real thing but I can see why its so damn expensive. Any clue how much this little test of yours is going to run you? I wish you the best though on this one.
 
I'd be tempted to add the syrup after fermentation had begun. Get the lowest-grade stuff you can find; cheaper AND more flavor. Adding it after fermentation is active might let you squeeze out a few more points of attenuation. And, if you're only using 1.5#, forget the smoked malt, you'll NEVER notice it in a beer this big. That's what, 2% or so? You'd probably need at least 10% - which I would do myself, personally ;), to get a subtle smokiness. Remember, rauchbiers are usually 50%-ish. I know you're not going for a smoked beer, but at that small a quantity it's pointless.
 
Good point. But I don't remember a distinctive smoke presence in the original. Now granted, I've only had it twice and the last time was a year ago but I just don't remember it being there. Too bad the research is so damned expensive. The guy I'm brewing it with has several bottles but they're not opened and he's whining about opening one up.
PTN
 
I've heard that it's there (I've never had the pleasure of partaking in a sample), and I think it would be a wonderful complement to the other flavors in there... but **** or get off the pot, 1.5# isn't worth weighting out. Some of the smokey character could either be yeast derived (you'll inevitably stress them out, nature of the beast here) or might be somewhat a byproduct of the uber-long boil you'll be doing. Not exactly "smoke," but you might get some interesting smokey characteristics from kettle caramelization and from the yeast.

Oh, what about that high-gravity ale yeast as your finishing yeast instead of the champaign?
 
The usual recommendation I have seen for WLP099 is to start with a moderate strength wort (30*P or so) and step up the gravity to your target over the course of 3-4 steps, re-oxygenating with each step so the yeast will grow bud and adapt to the fresh sugars. This yeast is really good at tolerating alcohol, but no yeast is good at growing in a 50*P wort which is essentially syrup. ;)

You could move half the wort to the fermenter and pitch the yeast, and then boil down the remainder to double the gravity and split into three containers which you then freeze. Each container could be re-boiled to sanitize and then added to the fermenter after cooling. Or, you could do what I'm planning when I try this and simply use extract for the remaining fermentables. Half 30*P wort and half 60*P wort would yield the same result as a 45*P wort without shocking the yeast, giving you a much better shot at a reasonable attenuation.

Subscribed. I want to try this someday myself. Good luck! :mug:
 
Are you sure the smokiness is coming from rauchmalt and not the whiskey barrels? I've never tried the real thing but it seems that the barrels would definitely add some smoke.
 
Jesus! I could dig up about a thousand threads of people *****footing around about this clone but I've never heard of anyone with the juevos to actually go the distance. This is a homebrew I would actually, dare I say (no whammy, no whammy, no moderate), pay for a bottle of... Seriously though, YOU HAVE TO KEEP US INFORMED ABOUT THIS ONE. Full pics of the whole process. I don't know anyone on this forum with any experience with beers this big. This would definitely be a great addition to the forum and brewing in general. Good Luck!

I'm subscribing and watching closely! :mug:
 
Hey Paul- When are you planning on brewing this? I'd definitely be interested to help you out even if you guys just wanted a "go-fer" around... I'd even be the photographer for something this "epic" I've been meaning to meet up with you over the last year...

Shoot me a PM!

PS- subscribed!
 
The usual recommendation I have seen for WLP099 is to start with a moderate strength wort (30*P or so) and step up the gravity to your target over the course of 3-4 steps, re-oxygenating with each step so the yeast will grow bud and adapt to the fresh sugars. This yeast is really good at tolerating alcohol, but no yeast is good at growing in a 50*P wort which is essentially syrup. ;)

:eek:

X2 (as in vials also!)
definitely step up the starter BIG TIME.

crazy massholes! :mug:
 
It's certainly added by both. I agree with what the_bird said, at the low level we're using teh rausch, why bother. I'll proably boost that and the crystal up to 5# each.

whoa now! 5 lbs of crystal will be way too much. with as high a starting gravity as you'll have, it will never dry out to anything less than disgustingly sweet. Hell, without the crystal you'll be hard pressed to get below 1.050 I would imagine. I'd limit the crystal by weight, and not persentage of total grain, according to what you would have in a normal gravity beer of 10 gallons, say 2 lbs max.
 
Remember, wine yeast can not ferment malt sugars; many of them also will kill a beer yeast when pitched. Pitch the Ale yeast first and the champagne when the ale yeast is done.
 
whoa now! 5 lbs of crystal will be way too much. with as high a starting gravity as you'll have, it will never dry out to anything less than disgustingly sweet. Hell, without the crystal you'll be hard pressed to get below 1.050 I would imagine. I'd limit the crystal by weight, and not persentage of total grain, according to what you would have in a normal gravity beer of 10 gallons, say 2 lbs max.

Interesting thoughts. Defend the arguement.
 
Remember, Paul, your biggest battle will be with attenuation. Even if you max out as much as the yeast can possibly do, even if you use champagne or the high-gravity ale yeast, it's inevitable that you will still have a LOT of residual sugars. I'd be mashing as low as I could, for as long as I could, to battle that. The crystal's also going to make that battle harder for you. The final product's inevitably going to be wicked sweet even with fewer crystal malts and simple sugars added.
 
We're planning on a 2-3 hour mash at 145*F and if I can figure out a way to kimchee rig an immersion chiller inline with a pump (Sounds pretty simple) we'll step it up to that temp. I don't want to direct fire the MLT's (especially the plastic ones) because there are going to be far too many opportunities to scorch this brew as it is.
 
We'll use my keggle MLT which should handle half of the grain bill easily, then split the remainder up into two coolers. Actually I just had a Eureka moment. Both my MLT and my BK have SS screens (Made by Jaybird who gets big props for them.) We'll mash in my kegs and boil in Chris's. I have a 12 gallon keg that I use as my HLT, between us we have 5 kegs, we've got more than enough keg volume available
 
Podcast: Sunday Session
Brewing beer with wine yeast and proper oaking techniques with wine consultant Shea Comfort
Broadcast Date: 2008-11-23 17:00:00

Is that the one?

You butchered that link, dude.
 
Oaking on chips for a year might be a bit much. Even with this big beer. You have a LOT more surface area on oak chips than a barrel. Since you are putting in so much effort, I'd contemplate spending the $ on a 10 gallon barrel.
 
I tried to talk my buddy into making 15 gallons of finished product, then we could put it into one of my 3 year old 15 gallon wine barrels After 3 years and 3 different batches of red wine run thru it the oak profile is beginning to tone down. I said I'd pitch in 2/3 of the cost of a new barrel (the ones I use are from Gibbs Bro in Arkansas, a 15 gallon new barrel goes of $185 or so) if he ponied up the other 1/3. I can't see using the barrel for wine again after we store beer in it for a year or so, so I'd be losing that barrel from my cellar. But his wife is preggers and she is making him crazier than he already is and he's not willing to jump. So it's going to be a year in carboys and oak chips in the bottom.

PTN
 
Wait a minute, the Gibbs Brothers? Whodathunk the BGs would get into the cooperage business!

brothers-gibb.gif
 
I might be able to find a barrel, Paul... My uncle is a very experienced wine maker (hobby) and he has told me many times that he could get me a barrel if I asked.
 
I know my barrels are good. I take wine out and put wine back in the same day, I'd be wicked leery of someone elses. I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth but unless I know that the barrel has been scrupulously taken care of I doubt I'd use it. Too many unknowns in an unknown barrel. I was at a conference on wine once (Ya, I'm a wine geek) and one guy gave a lecture that really stuck with me. He talked about how using someone elses unknown equipment was like sleeping with them and everyone they've ever slept with. You don't know what was in that barrel and what might be growing in it now. A whisky or scotch barrel I don't think I'd have as much a problem with since the higher concentration of alcohol would tend to kill off the brett. And although brett can work magic on beer, it ain't going anywhere near this one. So I think I need to pass on that, thanks anyways Tony.

PTN
 
I remember reading an article awhile back about a guy who brewed a 24% ABV beer. His scenario sounds pretty similiar to yours in a lot of ways. One thing that stuck with me was how he built his starter and how he handled primary fermentation.

To build his starter, he boiled up and put in jars a bunch of sterile wort. Pitched one or two viales of yeast, added oxtgen and one jar to start the starter and then every day for the next few days added one of the jars of wort and more oxygen. It sounded to me like he was essentially trying to take the yeast through four lifecycles before actual pitching, it resulted in a huge starter with a massive amount of yeast.

Then when he was fermenting, he pitched half the starter into 2 gallons of the high gravity wort and let it ferment for a few days. He then added a gallon of wort, oxygen and part of the remaining yeast every few days once fermentation slowed until all five gallons were added. Essentially supplying oxygen and fresh yeast with each new wort addition.

Damn, I wish I could remember where I read this, best of luck!
 
i like doing big batches, i have a 38 gallon MLT that works wonders.... my buddy and i regularly mash in 42 to 45 lbs of grain, for doing 10 gallon batches AG of our imperial stout.... we only fill about half the mash tun at this volume, i think it would be ideal for your project, the maxcold coolers are amazing, the best on the market IMHO the 38 gallon maxcold is only sold through academy sports IGLOO MAXCOLD 152-QUART ICE CHEST its specially made for them, it was only 80 bucks and its a great way to do larger batches of higher alch beer (look for academy sports coupons they can sometimes be found)..... our imp stout is only 10.2% abv with a OG of 1.103 I think using a mashtun like this would be a cheap way to work it for you guys, i just use a cpvc manifold on all my mashtuns its really really cheap, and by having such a large thermal mass youll be able to better hold your mash temps having all your grain mashing in one place than in separate places, especially considering how long you are mashing for, i normally do 90 minute mashes and in subfreezing weather and i loose less than half a degree.... the maxcolds rock ill post some pictures of my setup when i get around to it

Cheers!

o yah btw did you guys ever do it or are you still dreaming?
 
FWIW, I have done two high gravity brews. Not 24%ABV, but they were 16.5%.
One was a Samichlaus styled beer. And the other a jacked up version of Hair of the Dog's Adam. Both started at 1.142 and chewed down to 1.020.
I used the Wyeast Hella Bock lager strain, which is the Samichlaus yeast. Both are outstanding beers.
My process for keeping the yeast working was to make a 5 gal starter. Made a simple pilsner. Fermented it out. Then on brew day, racked off the pils (also scooped out a big spoonful of yeast and put inot a 4L E. flask to build up another starter), racked on the syrupy wort. Oxygen was added for two minutes every 2 hours until signs of fermentation, about 6 hours.
After about 10 days when fermentaion slowed, I decanted the starter, and added the yeast to the carboy. From here, I swirled the carboy everyday for about another month and a half to keep the yeast up in suspension. It took a total of 2 months at 48F to get down to 1.020. I then racked off the yeast and lagered for 8 months before bottling.
I figure if your OG is large enough to produce a 24% beer, and you add new yeast through out the process you might be able to it up there.

Good luck, and I hope this helps.
 
i like doing big batches, i have a 38 gallon MLT that works wonders.... my buddy and i regularly mash in 42 to 45 lbs of grain, for doing 10 gallon batches AG of our imperial stout.... we only fill about half the mash tun at this volume, i think it would be ideal for your project, the maxcold coolers are amazing, the best on the market IMHO the 38 gallon maxcold is only sold through academy sports IGLOO MAXCOLD 152-QUART ICE CHEST its specially made for them, it was only 80 bucks and its a great way to do larger batches of higher alch beer (look for academy sports coupons they can sometimes be found)..... our imp stout is only 10.2% abv with a OG of 1.103 I think using a mashtun like this would be a cheap way to work it for you guys, i just use a cpvc manifold on all my mashtuns its really really cheap, and by having such a large thermal mass youll be able to better hold your mash temps having all your grain mashing in one place than in separate places, especially considering how long you are mashing for, i normally do 90 minute mashes and in subfreezing weather and i loose less than half a degree.... the maxcolds rock ill post some pictures of my setup when i get around to it

Cheers!

o yah btw did you guys ever do it or are you still dreaming?

The bold was as far as I could get saying it out loud. That's a huge sentence, this thread must have gotten you jazzed about MLTs.
 
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