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Bobby_M

Bobby_M

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This is a public service announcement for all those who rush their beers into the keg/bottles and then right into the cooler. Stop, or my mom will shoot.

I brewed two batches about 9 months ago that made it into the keggerator probably just under a month after pitching. It had fermented out just fine, cleared up in secondary for a week or so, then right into the kegerator. I found them to be barely drinkable. Too sweet, strange off flavors, etc. They sat in there for months not being poured.

I eventually needed the room in the kegger so they got ripped out and left in my garage over the summer (80-85F ambient). I just took a test of both of them and they're good beers now. This goes to show how important a decent ale-temp conditioning is. If I would have just left then another month before rushing them into the cooler, they wouldn't have been ignored like red-headed step children.
 
I have often wondered about this practice, too.

I know some veteran homebrewers who ferment their beers for 7-10 days, rack to kegs, crash cool, and force carbonate. A few days later they are drinking. It seems to take their beers forever to get good (IMO), and by then much of it is gone. I can't understand why they don't condition their beer. I wonder if it is a generational thing.
 
Everytime I get impatient I'm reminded when I taste a young beer. Put it down! Unless it's wheat, I let it sit at least a month in a secondary.
 
So, once a ale's done fermenting, what's a safe temp range to store it at without getting off flavors? Cause I always thought 85F was a little high.
 
That's a good question. I honestly let it sit in the garage because I was convinced I would be dumping both down the drain when I got around to needing the kegs. Then I have to wonder though, the big concern about high temps are always about fusel alcohol and ester production during primary/active fermentation. Well that stage had been long completed already. I'd say no harm done.. hey, they tasted markedly better than before.
 
I definately agree, I made some beer almost 2 years ago now and thought it was bad was I just left it. I tasted some yesterday and its absolutley fantastic (if a little flat). Really smooth
 
Bobby_M said:
This is a public service announcement for all those who rush their beers into the keg/bottles and then right into the cooler. Stop, or my mom will shoot.

I brewed two batches about 9 months ago that made it into the keggerator probably just under a month after pitching. It had fermented out just fine, cleared up in secondary for a week or so, then right into the kegerator. I found them to be barely drinkable. Too sweet, strange off flavors, etc. They sat in there for months not being poured.

I eventually needed the room in the kegger so they got ripped out and left in my garage over the summer (80-85F ambient). I just took a test of both of them and they're good beers now. This goes to show how important a decent ale-temp conditioning is. If I would have just left then another month before rushing them into the cooler, they wouldn't have been ignored like red-headed step children.
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WOW. I've done the same but haven't gone back to try them.
Really looking forward to trying my tow-headed beers.
 
I was one of those impatient people (it's my first brew, 6 weeks is a long time!) and I put my keg in the kegerator too early and it's definitely "green". Is it safe to take the keg out of the kegerator and let it sit warm for a few weeks? Or since I already cooled it, should I keep it in the kegerator?
 
That's exactly what I did. It was cold for 3 months, then it sat in the warm garage for a couple months.. It tasted better. I don't know if there are any viable yeast left after all that time to do anymore conditioning, but my results suggested there was.
 
Okay Bobby.... so are you saying that you should put it in a 5 gal corny and pressurize. Then let it sit in the gararge around 80F for a month then crash cool it and enjoy after a day or so. Or place it in the corny and purge the O2 out, and then let it sit at room temp for a month then crash cool it and enjoy after.

I was wondering about using this technique and didn't know if after fermenting should I bottle it or just put it in one of my cornies. I have everything needed to start kegging now and so far haven't the time to finish. I have been contemplating on just filling some cornies and letting them sit so that I can finish my keggerator. Here in Florida the temps in my garage can hit upper 90's easily. My last bottling batch I had to keep inside (76F for 3-4 weeks) and they turned out great.
 
Hey, I resent that red headed remark! Although I am not entirely redheaded me sister is and so is me grand pa!

This is all good to know, my winter warmer is going to be read to bottle soon and I need a reason to be patient and not drink it right away!

Sean
 
Sean from New Hampshire said:
Hey, I resent that red headed remark! Although I am not entirely redheaded me sister is and so is me grand pa!

This is all good to know, my winter warmer is going to be read to bottle soon and I need a reason to be patient and not drink it right away!

Sean
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Your reasoning should include that it won't taste as good when it's new as it will once aged. ;)
 
Brewery Ommegang's conditioning room is WARM. I can't recall the temp but it was WARM in there.

My stuff goes roughly 10 days ferment, then either into the bottle (where it goes for 2 weeks @ferment temp) or into secondary and then it sits @around high 50's to low 60's to condition. I would never personally crash cool because you are basically halting much of the activity. That is fine for some stuff, but much of what I like to brew just ends up greatly benefitting from a long sort-of-cool conditioning phase. When I want to stop or severely inhibit any more changes, I throw it into the fridge.

Where you want to be careful with warm conditioning is if you have a recipe that has things which spoil at warm temperatures for long periods of time such as Oatmeal, etc. Also what will show up is if you have residual protein from a poor cold break, etc these too can lead to instability.
 
Great topic. I do directly to keg after two weeks in the primary, then let the keg set for about 4 weeks at room temperature. However, this past summer, room temperature went up a notch more than usual since I got a programmable thermostat (worth it's weight in gold, my friends....) I imagine the kegs probably hit about 80 or so a couple of times. But, if it ain't "all that," do the college trick. Start off with the good stuff, then by the second or third round, switch to the not so good stuff and you won't even know the difference.
 
drunkatuw said:
I was one of those impatient people (it's my first brew, 6 weeks is a long time!) and I put my keg in the kegerator too early and it's definitely "green". Is it safe to take the keg out of the kegerator and let it sit warm for a few weeks? Or since I already cooled it, should I keep it in the kegerator?
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Im not impatient, but I did the same by putting the keg in the fridge after 1 in primary and 2 in secondary, kegged it, set for maybe 3 days at room temp(84-69) then put in fridge for 3-4 days. Took it back out after reading some post, now been sitting at room temp again. I'm new and A bit confused sometimes! I screwed my 1st 1 up so bad it is funny(lol) Soo is it okay to cool then remove from cool(40d) and put back 2 (84-69) ????
 
It really matters what alcohol level we're talking about here. A stronger beer can definetly use the conditioning time at i think 65 degrees or lower. It just lets all flavors become more of one flavor. However i really think that a 3 to 4 percent beer could be banged out and be drinking in a few weeks! Just one question for you. What was the Final Gravity? I'm thinking that it could of fermented a little when you took it out that second time. As it warmed it use what little yeast and fermented all the way down. Who knows. thats my 3 cents worth
 
Similar story-
I've been out of brewing for a few years, going through my bottle cases, I found two full cases! So this beer has been under the stairs in my basement (pretty constant temps), for 2-3 years. Both styles taste great, and have good carbing.
One is a Bock, the other is a blueberry wheat. I recall that the wheat definetly had a strong blueberry taste, but now has mellowed nicely.

Great way to get back into homebrewing-enjoying some tasty mellow brews, while I wait for the new stock to age properly.
 
I’ll agree that some beers need a decent rest before reaching their peak.

I’ll disagree that all beers need the same.

I brew 3.5% – 4.5% house ales all the time, and from kettle to tap in 3 weeks seems (at least to friends and family who drink it) to be more than enough time.

What’s the difference between a wheat beer (which everyone seems to agree is drinkable at 3 weeks), and a similar (weight) grain bill that doesn’t have any wheat?

Big beers…sure. Give em time to grow, age, mellow and the flavors to meld. I have a porter stuck away in the brewshop right now that I’ll give at least two more months. I have a Guinness Extra Stout that I brewed back in May and is hiding in the dark until winter.

Depends on the beer style and the drinking preference. I prefer to see myself as brewing and serving a fresh beer, made from scratch.
 
Okay! Thought I'd boot this thread again and see what others think.

Tomorrow I'm gonna move my Cascade PA II over to a corny (first time). Then I'll wait for it to condition for about 2-3 weeks maybe longer at room temp, and then crash cool it for a few days after. Yes it will be on CO2 the whole time. Hopefully this will turn out like Bobby M had stated. Anyone see a problem with doing it this way or is this an acceptable way similiar to bottling?
 
I'd agree that not all beers NEED a long time to be drinkable, but I do believe that any beer can benefit with an extra week sitting around. Certainly no harm in it. Even my American Blonde recently hit its stride at 3 weeks after a 2-week primary. Or course, it took a party last night to kill that joy quick.

I think 2-weeks of post ferment warm conditioning for a pale ale is plenty if it was <1.060 OG.
 
Bobby_M said:
I'd agree that not all beers NEED a long time to be drinkable, but I do believe that any beer can benefit with an extra week sitting around. Certainly no harm in it. Even my American Blonde recently hit its stride at 3 weeks after a 2-week primary. Or course, it took a party last night to kill that joy quick.

I think 2-weeks of post ferment warm conditioning for a pale ale is plenty if it was <1.060 OG.
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That sounds good... but I want to keg condition using corn sugar and let it sit 2-3 weeks before I tap. Does corn sugar work well enough or should I just force carb and check the pressure every day waiting for my 2-3 week conditioning?
 
the_Roqk said:
That sounds good... but I want to keg condition using corn sugar and let it sit 2-3 weeks before I tap. Does corn sugar work well enough or should I just force carb and check the pressure every day waiting for my 2-3 week conditioning?
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The only thing I'd say about priming a keg, is the taste will be different than a force carb'd keg. When I started doing 10-gallon batches, I thought I'd save gas by priming one keg and setting it aside for 3-4 weeks and then forece carb the other keg.

With three different recipes (Bass, Redhook ESB and Nierra Sevada) all of the primed kegs had distinctly different tastes. It reminded me of that "home made beer" taste that excessive yeast gives.

If I hadn't been doing ten gallon batches, I never would have realized how much "cleaner" a force carb'd beer tasted.
 
BierMuncher said:
The only thing I'd say about priming a keg, is the taste will be different than a force carb'd keg. When I started doing 10-gallon batches, I thought I'd save gas by priming one keg and setting it aside for 3-4 weeks and then forece carb the other keg.

With three different recipes (Bass, Redhook ESB and Nierra Sevada) all of the primed kegs had distinctly different tastes. It reminded me of that "home made beer" taste that excessive yeast gives.

If I hadn't been doing ten gallon batches, I never would have realized how much "cleaner" a force carb'd beer tasted.
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Thanks BierMuncher!

I don't know what I'm thinking, maybe trying to save some CO2. But hell, why? I have 3 full 20# cylinders and might as well use them and save the corn sugar for bottling. Tomorrow I transfer, carb and wait.
 
the_Roqk said:
Thanks BierMuncher!

I don't know what I'm thinking, maybe trying to save some CO2. But hell, why? I have 3 full 20# cylinders and might as well use them and save the corn sugar for bottling. Tomorrow I transfer, carb and wait.
Click to expand...
Good idea. You'll be drinking sooner and the beer will be cleaner.

I had been using a 20 and a 10 and as soon as I figured out that priming a keg wasn't for me, I traded the 10 for another 20.
 
Now, the question is.....what if you prime with DME? Would that add flavor while also accomplishing the warm aging and carbing?
 
ScubaSteve said:
Now, the question is.....what if you prime with DME? Would that add flavor while also accomplishing the warm aging and carbing?
Click to expand...
It's not the DME that adds flavor, but the increased count of the yeast, that changes the flavor.

Will it carb? yes.

Does it get a longer warm conditioning time? yes

Does it taste better? Not in my opinion. Not unless you like some additional yeast bite. Again, all I have is side by side batches that tasted different as evidence. (not sure what better evidence there could be.)

If you insist on longer room-temp conditioning, do it clean (sans sugar) and then after the three weeks is up, chill it...hook it up to 30PSI for exactly 60 hours and then bleed off...set to serve and...serve.

I prefer cold conditioning to help clarify the beer, but that's not the question here...
 
Bobby

I have to thank you. After reading through this thread you motivated me to do something that had to be done. I got my kegerator set up last week and in a rush to use it stuck in a couple of kegs that weren't really ready. And worse, I was drinking it just because it was there.

Pulled them out this morning and stuck in a keg of water. I'll only be drinking seltzer from the tap until the beer is conditioned!

Thanks
 
Great. It's not like anyone blames you because even when we bottle our first couple batches, we're well into wasting a six pack's worth in carbonation tests. I remember refridgerating and popping a bottle after only being on the sugar for 2 days. This pattern is repeated after getting a kegger.

Even now, I have two carboys of American Amber in the basement completely cleared. I was so tempted to rack them to keg and put them on the gas yesterday. Why not? It's only 10 days old and I KNOW I'd be pulling half a pint a day. I'd be a good 2 gallons low by the time it started tasting good.

Those who are well disciplined can rack to keg and NOT chill it. Others should leave it in a carboy.
 
Bobby_M said:
...Those who are well disciplined can rack to keg and NOT chill it. Others should leave it in a carboy.
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I'm not well discliplined, but my keezer is full and I'm needing to brew. So it's into kegs and off to a dark corner for my Anchor and OktoberFast.
 
Instead of conditioning the beer in a keg after primary and secondary fermentation have occured, I prefer to leave the beer in primary longer than is conventional (basically as long as it can sit there without picking up off-flavors). Unless the beer is a very delicate style, I leave it an extra week to two weeks in primary after active fermentation has subsided. The logic behind this is that the yeast in the trub cake of the primary "cleans up" the beer by metabolizing chemicals produced while they were going wild. There is less yeast in the secondary, bottle, or keg than in the primary, so the aging process goes considerably faster in the primary. Unless the beer is high gravity or has tons of hops, I usually forgo secondary. This seems relevent because this technique may reduce the need for later aging, warm or otherwise.
 
This is a very interesting thought considering I usually see about a quarter of an inch or so of yeast in the secondary a day or so after racking. I assume most of that yeast would have stayed in suspension in primary. That's probably even more significant than the cake.

I still like clearing in secondary, but maybe I'll start leaving beer in primary for an extra week. It certainly can't hurt.
 
I have 8 cornies that have been in the keezer a couple of months...even an Oktoberfest that I brewed in March...untouched.

I've been on a business trip for the past 3 weeks and will be gone another...back home for a couple of days then off again for a week or so...lookes like a late O'fest for me...oh well...:D
 
BrewBrain said:
This is a very interesting thought considering I usually see about a quarter of an inch or so of yeast in the secondary a day or so after racking. I assume most of that yeast would have stayed in suspension in primary. That's probably even more significant than the cake.

I still like clearing in secondary, but maybe I'll start leaving beer in primary for an extra week. It certainly can't hurt.
Click to expand...

I don't have any scientific qualifications but I find this theory illogical. The beer doesn't go through any kind of physical change after racking. Unless the trub has some kind of repelling properties, I don't think sediment knows which container its in. I'd suspect that immediate layer is a result of sucking up some of the already settled sediment that resettled in the secondary. I'm just curious why you suspect the racking process encourages more flocculation.
 
I primary for 3 weeks, then bottle condition for as long as I can keep my pesky fingers off those bottles.

I feel them crying out: "drink me! drink me!"

I always end up cheating and drinking them young. I must learn discipline.
 
Bobby_M said:
I don't have any scientific qualifications but I find this theory illogical. The beer doesn't go through any kind of physical change after racking. Unless the trub has some kind of repelling properties, I don't think sediment knows which container its in. I'd suspect that immediate layer is a result of sucking up some of the already settled sediment that resettled in the secondary. I'm just curious why you suspect the racking process encourages more flocculation.
Click to expand...

Well, now that you made me think about it I've decided I don't know. However, I find the amount of yeast on the bottom of the secondary builds very quickly to a level and then sort of stops building. Within a few hours I've generally got a pretty good layer going. I'm guessing it isn't building that fast in primary, but I use a bucket for primary and can't see it.

As you say, it could be settled sediment from primary that got sucked up. I try to be careful to not siphon that stuff, but who knows.

Only other thing I can think of is maybe the mixing action of racking jostles some of the yeast out of suspension, but that doesn't make much sense to me.
 
Bobby_M said:
...I'm just curious why you suspect the racking process encourages more flocculation...
Click to expand...
All I know is that I racked an Anchor Amber to my secondary after 10 days and within 30 minutes there was a nice 1/4 inch of trub settled.

And I ain't no sloppy racker either. :p

Without exception...rack to secondary...beer becomes substantially clearer within a day or two. At least in my brewshop.
 
It's not that I don't believe what you're observing. My curiousity as to the "why" is what's getting the best of me. Maybe it does have something to do with the trub layer having a static charge which repels new settlement. Maybe a slight bit of oxydation encourages separation.

I tried an extended primary, no secondary batch and you're right, it doesn't clear in the keg as fast. In fact, it took about an extra week to hit that cold conditioned clarity. In listening to the Jamil show (just about every episode), he claims his beers improved greatly by doing long primaries and then simply extending the cold conditioning in the kegs which I'd imagine is easy to do when you have a frickin walk in cold room.
 
We prolly need a physics person to give an opinion.

My theory is that racking to a secondary thins out the wort. Yeast trub after all, despite how compacted and sticky it is at the bottom of the vessel, is still a liquid. A highly dense liquid that contirbutes to the overall concentration of yeast in the primary.

It's probably safe to estimate that the yeast cake represents ~90% of the yeast concentration in the primary.

Now suck off the liquid and leave behind that 90% concentration, and the new liquid is thinner and "frees up" the remaining yeast to settle out.
 

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