L. Plantarum and L. Brevis Berliner Weisse

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njbalazs

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I have never posted before, I am hoping to get some feedback on a brew that I am planning. Looking for help on procedure not recipe:

The very loose "procedure" and thoughts are below.

mashing with one decoction of wort only (no solids);
running off into my brew kettle;
pitching a hand full of crushed grain and juice from homemade sourkraut.


The sourkraut should contain Lactobacillus Plantarum and Lactobacillus Brevis, the grain should have Lactobacillus Brevis. I want the L. Brevis as it will supposedly be more true to the style and produce a more complex beer. Using multiple source strains I am hoping to get some real character.

The hope is to let this sit in the brew kettle for about 12-24 hours then bring to a boil to sterilize at which point I would chill and add a clean fermenting yeast strain.

L. Plantarum produces Diacetyl in milk at levels that are detectable, I assume this will translate to the wort. Boiling should drive that off as well as sterilize the wort.

Is there anything that I should be watching out for or doing differently?
 
I did a Berliner with Plantarum 299v from the good belly drinks that you can get at Kroger. It turned out fine no diacetyl at all. I pitched it at 90 and let it ride at that temp for four days. It is insanely sour. Just make sure you don't hop your wort since all these strains are extremely hop sensitive.
 
I was planning on a small amount of hops in the mash I think less than 5 IBU. Good to hear I don't have to worry.
 
I did a Berliner with Plantarum 299v from the good belly drinks that you can get at Kroger. It turned out fine no diacetyl at all. I pitched it at 90 and let it ride at that temp for four days. It is insanely sour. Just make sure you don't hop your wort since all these strains are extremely hop sensitive.

In my experience 299v is not hop sensitive.
 
One thing that concerns me is the production of acetobacter in the sauerkraut might take off in your wort. I would either skip the sauerkraut addition or ensure the temp is around 110F. That should be high enough to keep the acetobacter production down or negate it.
 
I would recommend 2-3 days souring rather than just 12-24 hours

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Acetobactor is an aerobic bacteria, if I blanket the kettle with CO2 then seal it I can minimize production. I am going to have a hard time maintaining temperature above 110 for 3 days is going to be nearly impossible. I can keep it close for 12.
 
I was planning on a small amount of hops in the mash I think less than 5 IBU. Good to hear I don't have to worry.

5 may be too many. Use zero. If you want any hops, add them when you boil it.

Acetobactor is an aerobic bacteria, if I blanket the kettle with CO2 then seal it I can minimize production. I am going to have a hard time maintaining temperature above 110 for 3 days is going to be nearly impossible. I can keep it close for 12.

It all depends on how long the lag phase is. I don't use grain, which seems to work fairly quickly from reports on here, and I am finding I need to leave it for 5 to 7 days at about 100 F.

Does diacetyl get droven off with boiling? I don't know.

Any alcohol created by the Lacto will be driven off. I don't boil mine.
 
The lacto used does not create alcohol according to Wikipedia. L. Brevis, l. Acidophilus, L. Delbrueckii, and L. Plantarum are all homofermentive, can only produce lactic acid. (Was wondering so I did a quick search)

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The lacto used does not create alcohol according to Wikipedia. L. Brevis, l. Acidophilus, L. Delbrueckii, and L. Plantarum are all homofermentive, can only produce lactic acid. (Was wondering so I did a quick search)

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Not that Wikipedia is a reliable source for information, but you must have misread.

From the L. Brevis page: "L. brevis produces more organic acids, specifically acetic acid and ethanol. This means that this bacterium produces an increased acidic environment and alcohol"

L Brevis can also produce diacetyl per Wild Brews p 187.
 
Acetobactor is an aerobic bacteria, if I blanket the kettle with CO2 then seal it I can minimize production. I am going to have a hard time maintaining temperature above 110 for 3 days is going to be nearly impossible. I can keep it close for 12.

Yes but there is a good bit of oxygen in the water for it to work with. You could boil the liquor first to drive off some of the oxygen.

In my experience with making BW, using the sour mash method, it takes about ~72 hours before I get the desired sourness and that is keeping it at 105F the entire time. If you aren't able to keep those temps, it might be best for you to boil the wort, cool it and then pitch your lacto and let it work until it reaches your desired sourness level. It will take a lot longer to sour at room temp, possibly up to two weeks.
 
Not that Wikipedia is a reliable source for information, but you must have misread.

From the L. Brevis page: "L. brevis produces more organic acids, specifically acetic acid and ethanol. This means that this bacterium produces an increased acidic environment and alcohol"

L Brevis can also produce diacetyl per Wild Brews p 187.

It produces acetic acid? I suspect that is a mistake. Does anyone know?
 
I don't see why you can't trust cited Wikipedia entries. Especially with studies that have been done in regards to how factual Wikipedia is. However I don't care to argue that. The page does say that it produces acetic acid and ethanol. I Google searched it and multiple sources seem to confirm that the majority of what L. Brevis produces is lactic acid, but it also produces acetic acid and ethanol.

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I decided to make a starter for my sourkraut juice, over night it got to 150°F. I can't find anything on what temp will totally kill lactobacillus, i assume it will be fine, but would rather not assume. Can someone enlighten me?
 
I devices to make a starter for my sourkraut juice, over night it got to 150°F. I can't find anything on what temp will totally kill lactobacillus, i assume it will be fine, but would rather not assume. Can someone enlighten me?

I think pastuerization is 145 for 20 minutes. I think that is enough to kill Lacto.
 
I decided to make a starter for my sourkraut juice, over night it got to 150°F. I can't find anything on what temp will totally kill lactobacillus, i assume it will be fine, but would rather not assume. Can someone enlighten me?

Depends on how long it stayed at 150F. At that temperature, it takes about an hour to reduce cell count by x2 and ~3 hours to reduce them to a minimal count.
 
Both L. brevis and L. plantarum are heterofermentive, producing lactic acid in addition to ethanol (or acetic acid) and CO2 from glucose.

The other species you listed (L. acidophilus and L. delbrueckii) are homofermentive.

Check out this link for some basic info.

OP, are you adding sauerkraut juice just because you have it on hand as opposed to purchasing the cultures needed? Or as an experiment?

Acetobacter should not be in your kraut (unless it is a contaminant). The genus Leuconostoc is more commonly used in kraut preparation, in addition to the Lactic acid bacteria.
 
ColoHox said:
Both L. brevis and L. plantarum are heterofermentive, producing lactic acid in addition to ethanol (or acetic acid) and CO2 from glucose.

The other species you listed (L. acidophilus and L. delbrueckii) are homofermentive.

Check out this link for some basic info.

OP, are you adding sauerkraut juice just because you have it on hand as opposed to purchasing the cultures needed? Or as an experiment?

Acetobacter should not be in your kraut (unless it is a contaminant). The genus Leuconostoc is more commonly used in kraut preparation, in addition to the Lactic acid bacteria.

Learned something new.... I always thought it was acetobacter that produced acetic acid in sauerkraut. Thanks for the info!
 
Just a quick update. I brewed on Sunday, ran off into my kettle, pitched my sauerkraut starter as well as a handful of grain. I checked pH yesterday, it was about 3, tasted it to be sure, and it was amazingly tart. I will heat it back up tomorrow with a small amount of hops then pitch my yeast. I am very happy with the results so far.
 
Just a quick update. I brewed on Sunday, ran off into my kettle, pitched my sauerkraut starter as well as a handful of grain. I checked pH yesterday, it was about 3, tasted it to be sure, and it was amazingly tart. I will heat it back up tomorrow with a small amount of hops then pitch my yeast. I am very happy with the results so far.

So you let it ride for ~4days?
 
Just a quick update. I brewed on Sunday, ran off into my kettle, pitched my sauerkraut starter as well as a handful of grain. I checked pH yesterday, it was about 3, tasted it to be sure, and it was amazingly tart. I will heat it back up tomorrow with a small amount of hops then pitch my yeast. I am very happy with the results so far.

With a pH of 3, I imagine the yeast will flip you the bird and die.
 
Johnny, I will let it go for a little over 5 days.
Gabe, I think the yeast will survive the low pH. What I have read on kettle souring, you should target 3.5. Acid washing is done at 2-2.5. If it doesn't work, so be it, it still tastes awesome.
 
Johnny, I silk let it go for a little over 5 days.
Gabe, I think the yeast will survive the low pH. What I have read on kettle souring, you should target 3.5. Acid washing is done at 2-2.5. If it doesn't work, so be it, it still tastes awesome.

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Well I hope the yeast does survive, but IIRC, isn't a temperature around 36F the key to yeast surviving washing? The low pH is also temporary and the yeast isn't expected to reproduce in that environment. As you said, if nothing else, you'll have a presumably probiotic beverage you enjoy.
 
Just a quick update. I brewed on Sunday, ran off into my kettle, pitched my sauerkraut starter as well as a handful of grain. I checked pH yesterday, it was about 3, tasted it to be sure, and it was amazingly tart. I will heat it back up tomorrow with a small amount of hops then pitch my yeast. I am very happy with the results so far.

Check the gravity, you may be boiling off alcohol when you heat it up again.

I find I don't need hops in a Berliner, and just pitch yeast without re-boiling.
 
anything to update us with on this?
I made a batch of Sauerkraut last night just so that I could try this.
I will not boil and will not hop,well maybe dry-hop?
 
The kolsch yeast went off like crazy, the alt is slower but chugging along. I ended up not heating it or adding hops.

For sauerkraut, I cut up a cabbage, jam as much as possible into a quart mason jar add some salt then beat the hell out of it with a wood spoon. Weigh down the cabbage so it is fully submerged in it's own water. Let it sit for 3-5 days on the counter. The natural bacteria will take care of fermentation. Refrigerate when done.
 
So, how much kraut juice did you pitch and how long had it been sitting/fermenting before you pitched it? Did you make a kraut juice starter?
 
Sorry, I used about 50ml of fresh kraut juice in a pint mason jar which I grew for a few days, I pitched the whole starter without decanting.

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Thanks for the clarification.
I am going to try this for sure. I have talked a buddy into trying it too.

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That 50ml went into a typical 1.040 starter.

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