Yes, that is indeed a valid approach to getting a rough idea as to what effects the stylistic ions (sulfate, chloride, sodium and let's include magnesium here even though it also has an effect on pH). I never would have thought that this would work and, other than table salt, I have never tried it but Colin Kaminsky (Downtown Joe's in Napa) tunes his salt additions by this method.
A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer
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thisoneguy
Well-Known Member
pfowl01 said:
I think the recommendation is actually to add 2 tsp of each (for "minerally" beers). I would consider just starting with 1 tsp of each, and possibly increasing the additions in subsequent batches of the same brew if you feel like you want more minerals. My sense is it's easy to OVER-adjust your water, so it's better to start with the minimum amount to keep your mash pH in a good range and then experiment with adding more (even using small additions to the finished beer) to see if you feel like more mineral content improves the beer.
Disclaimer: I'm just starting to study water chemistry. Hopefully someone with more experience will correct me if I'm wrong.
1 tsp of gypsum and 1 of calcium chloride would be a good place to start. Add or detract from that in subsequent batches until you hit the levels that give you the most pleasing beer.
Brewsncrabs
Well-Known Member
Thanks for an educational thread Yooper and AJ. That PH meter better be under the Christmas tree this year!
After using water softenener water for a few AG brews, I have finally decided to learn this water chemsitry stuff. I am not a scientist, so i have some questions.
Would you add gypsum to a hoppy red ale as if it were an IPA? Specifically Jamil's Evil Twin recipe?
I will be using 100% RO water and following the baseline additions for calcium and acidulated malt.
Do higher gravity brews like barleywines need "more" additions or does gravity not matter when it comes to water chemistry?
When using 100% RO in water profile spreadsheets, are all your starting mineral numbers "0"? Does RO remove everything?
After using water softenener water for a few AG brews, I have finally decided to learn this water chemsitry stuff. I am not a scientist, so i have some questions.
Would you add gypsum to a hoppy red ale as if it were an IPA? Specifically Jamil's Evil Twin recipe?
I will be using 100% RO water and following the baseline additions for calcium and acidulated malt.
Do higher gravity brews like barleywines need "more" additions or does gravity not matter when it comes to water chemistry?
When using 100% RO in water profile spreadsheets, are all your starting mineral numbers "0"? Does RO remove everything?
You'd have to ask Jamill about that! Actually it depends on personal taste. I always suggest starting low on gypsum and working up.
It depends on the requirements of the style more than the gravity.
Yes. The actual numbers aren't 0 but they are pretty close. If you wanted to use actual numbers you would have to do an analysis on the RO water each time you brewed. 0 is close enough.
Brewsncrabs
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the quick response. You have made this easier to understand. Cant wait to try it tomorrow morning!
phoenixs4r
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So, we've got two beer under our belt using this guide and all of your help, starting off with deionized water. They turned out fantastic, thanks!
I've run into a bit of a snag tho, we are attempting our 3rd pure water brew, a caramel cream ale that we loved, and this is the first time that the EZ water calculator puts us UNDER in our PH
This is for an 11.5 gallon finished batch, using 7.5g mash and 9.1 gallon sparge
15.5lbs 2row
6.5lbs wheat malt
3.5 Crystal 60L
The estimated mash output is @ 5.36..... so I need to raise it for the first time. Not sure if I should follow the guide and still add the calc chloride first to make it go even further into the negative AND THEN add slaked lime/baking soda to raise it? Or to just add the slaked lime/baking soda only? Or to leave it alone?
I'm hesitant to cut the deionized water with tap water because I don't know it's profile, and it changes upwards to 4 times a year.
halp?
THANKS
I've run into a bit of a snag tho, we are attempting our 3rd pure water brew, a caramel cream ale that we loved, and this is the first time that the EZ water calculator puts us UNDER in our PH
This is for an 11.5 gallon finished batch, using 7.5g mash and 9.1 gallon sparge
15.5lbs 2row
6.5lbs wheat malt
3.5 Crystal 60L
The estimated mash output is @ 5.36..... so I need to raise it for the first time. Not sure if I should follow the guide and still add the calc chloride first to make it go even further into the negative AND THEN add slaked lime/baking soda to raise it? Or to just add the slaked lime/baking soda only? Or to leave it alone?
I'm hesitant to cut the deionized water with tap water because I don't know it's profile, and it changes upwards to 4 times a year.
halp?
THANKS
This is the Primer thread where the philosophy is that you don't worry about what spreadsheets or calculators tell you - you just brew the beer using common sense, simple additions. It doesn't guarantee success every time - just probable success. OTOH if you use the EZ (or other) spreadsheet and it tells you that you are going to get a mash pH of 5.36 your mash pH could be anywhere from 5.16 to 5.56 as the spreadsheet doesn't know the parameters of the actual malt you are using. In other words Primer or spreadsheet there is uncertainty as to what the actual outcome will be. The only way to resolve that uncertainty is to obtain and use a pH meter and that is really what I recommend everyone do.
I don't know what the 'ideal' mash pH is (if there is one) but my inclination is that it is around 5.4. If I measured 5.36 in a mash I would not worry. I would probably use a bit less acid next time though.
I don't know what the 'ideal' mash pH is (if there is one) but my inclination is that it is around 5.4. If I measured 5.36 in a mash I would not worry. I would probably use a bit less acid next time though.
When is the ideal time to add salts to water? Dough in or to strike water? is there an ideal Ph for sparge water? I've only heard the less than 6 rule of thumb. Also to those that are more experienced, is there a pH meter that has a replaceable electrode and is one of the better money can buy? Need to buy one soon.
To me it is easiest to treat the water as I load it into the HLT. I need 2 HLT's full of water for most brew days. The HLT is 35" deep when filled and so I put all the salts I need into 35 mL of solution (time 2). Dump the first 35 mL into the first HLT full and then as I add water to it during the rest of the brew add 1" of solution for each inch of water added. What is easiest for you will depend on the size of your HLT etc. You shouldn't be using chalk and as everything else is soluble it should be simpler to add it to the HLT. It's tough enough getting malt and water mixed thoroughly without having to worry about getting the salts mixed in too.
I'm sure sparge water at pH 5 will extract less phenols that sparge water at pH 6 but the general feeling is that pH 6 is adequate. You may very well not need to acidify your sparge water unless your alkalinity is appreciable.
Yes, many, even the inexpensive meters have replaceable electrodes. Often with these the cost of a new meter is $79 and the cost of a replacement electrode $69 so that's something to think about. Higher end meters always have replaceable electrodes which connect to the meter via cable and connector (traditionally BNC but fancier connectors are being used now as more smarts are being put into the probes which talk to the meters digitally).
I'm sure sparge water at pH 5 will extract less phenols that sparge water at pH 6 but the general feeling is that pH 6 is adequate. You may very well not need to acidify your sparge water unless your alkalinity is appreciable.
Yes, many, even the inexpensive meters have replaceable electrodes. Often with these the cost of a new meter is $79 and the cost of a replacement electrode $69 so that's something to think about. Higher end meters always have replaceable electrodes which connect to the meter via cable and connector (traditionally BNC but fancier connectors are being used now as more smarts are being put into the probes which talk to the meters digitally).
There's a saying out there about how no matter how simply something is explained, someone will get it muddled. I'm a muddler. So my question is: Are these additions cumulative? For example, for an IPA, I would add, in total, 40g Magnesium to 5 gallons of brew water. If it were not cumulative, I would add 20g.
A.J.'s Results (Starting water + Additions) for 5 gal of water (in ppm)
Calcium Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride SO4/Cl2
Baseline 69 20 20 20 108 0.23
Pils, Heles, Hefes 45 20 20 20 64 0.38
Stouts, Porters 69 20 20 20 108 0.23
British / Light Ales 119 20 20 138 108 1.60
IPA, Export, Burton Ales 217 20 20 256 196 1.68
A.J.'s Results (Starting water + Additions) for 5 gal of water (in ppm)
Calcium Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride SO4/Cl2
Baseline 69 20 20 20 108 0.23
Pils, Heles, Hefes 45 20 20 20 64 0.38
Stouts, Porters 69 20 20 20 108 0.23
British / Light Ales 119 20 20 138 108 1.60
IPA, Export, Burton Ales 217 20 20 256 196 1.68
The Primer does not call for any magnesium additions.
The base line is 1 tsp of calcium chloride per 5 gallons. The key words are 'deviate from the baseline'. If you are doing a British beer you can replace that with 1 tsp of gypsum or you can add 1/2 tsp each of calcium chloride and gypsum or you can add 1 tsp of each. In the first 2 cases the calcium addition level is about the same. In the latter case it doubles. For 'minerally beer' you can double chloride and/or sulfate. That's lots and lots of minerals. You should experiment around these guidelines looking for the additions that give you the beer you find best before going to 2 tsp of each. Try adding them in the glass to a less aggressively salted beer before you brew with those levels.
The base line is 1 tsp of calcium chloride per 5 gallons. The key words are 'deviate from the baseline'. If you are doing a British beer you can replace that with 1 tsp of gypsum or you can add 1/2 tsp each of calcium chloride and gypsum or you can add 1 tsp of each. In the first 2 cases the calcium addition level is about the same. In the latter case it doubles. For 'minerally beer' you can double chloride and/or sulfate. That's lots and lots of minerals. You should experiment around these guidelines looking for the additions that give you the beer you find best before going to 2 tsp of each. Try adding them in the glass to a less aggressively salted beer before you brew with those levels.
Thank you!
TNTgill
Well-Known Member
AJ I wanted to thank you for this primer and the continued posting to it. I do have a question. I have only brewed 6 batches (2 extract 4 AG) and used 100% RO water for all of them with no additions (used 5.2 stabilizer on 2 batches before reading here that it was a fraud so it got trashed). My finished products have all been bland and just lacking flavor and complexity that I was expecting with my brews. Would having no minerals in my water and pH less than optimal cause such blandness or should I look elsewhere? My last brew I did adjust my water per your primer and although its only 10 days in primary the flavor is much better compared to the others. (Its a porter so I omitted the sauermalz and just treated all my water per your instructions) so I wanted to thank you for the instructions.
Quite possibly and yes. In other words to try using the supplements suggested, including sauermalz (if required) and, if possible, check mash pH first as these are easy fixes. If the problem is solved, enjoy the beer. If not you will have to look further at things like pitch rate, oxygenation, choice of yeast strain, fermentation temperature, grist composition and the height of tides in the Red Sea.
In general I find that a minimum level of chloride and proper mash pH will 'turn on' the flavors but beer is so diverse that I can't declare that as a universal panacea.
TNTgill
Well-Known Member
Thanks again AJ, I learned on my first batch the importance of proper fermentation temps (green apple beer is not good!). I use a stir plate to start any liquid yeast and pitch dry and liquid per Mr. Malty. Oxygenation could be better as I do not yet have a stone but I usually pour from the kettle to the bucket a few times and stir until I have a good 6-8 inches of foam and fermentation usually kicks off well within 4-6 hours (had one bubbling like mad in an hour and a half). I have been using mostly kits from Midwest and 1 or 2 I found here with great reviews so grist composition should be fine. I truly think (at least hope) that my use of 100% RO water has negative impact on my beer flavors. Time will tell on the porter that I racked onto a pound of toasted coconut today and the saison I have planned for monday. Thanks again.
I've been using the EZ water calc spreadsheet for a while now, and it just occurred to me that I might be using the sparge water input incorrectly. Where it asks for sparge water volume, I've been using [pre-boil volume - mash volume] to get my number. Should I be entering the total sparge water volume in the HLT instead? It would alter the ppm dilution of any sparge mineral additions, so I'm not sure which is the correct way to use that part of the spreadsheet.
I searched, and could not find an answer, so sorry if this has already been addressed.
Thanks,
TB
I searched, and could not find an answer, so sorry if this has already been addressed.
Thanks,
TB
I enter the total sparge water volume as you suggested, as that is the actual water that I am adding my sparge/kettle salts to.
That also makes makes sense.
However, what made me question the way I was doing it, is that what if you're not adding any salts to your sparge/HLT water at all? Then what does the value you put for the sparge volume affect, and how? I don't usually add any salts to my HLT, but I noticed that the final water profile changes with the value you enter for the sparge volume regardless.
Am I making any sense? Am I missing something here?
Thanks!
EDIT: for example, I fill my HLT to 15 gallons when I begin a brew day, so I could put that in the cell for sparge volume (which would make sense if you're adding any salts). However, I always end up with a couple gallons left in my MLT and HLT once sparging is finished. So are those extra gallons being accounted for somehow in the spreadsheet? I always figured they weren't, so that's why I used the [pre-boil volume - mash volume] to get the value to enter in that cell.
davepeds
Well-Known Member
random observation that may be helpful to someone. To drop 10lb of grain by 0.1 pH, we've read before that it takes about .8ml of 88% lactic acid. For those of us without pipettes, that's an infant tylenol dropper.
Keep in mind the 2 goals of the spreadsheet - one is to calculate the mash pH, the other is to calculate the concentration of the "stylistic/taste" salts - those that affect the perceived flavor and other beneficial fermentation aspects as opposed to affecting the pH of the mash. The most familiar taste elements are chloride and sulfate. If your goal is to end up with a finished beer that has 100 ppm of chloride and 80 ppm of sulfate and you were to ignore your sparge volume, you would end up diluting the concentration of your desired chloride and sulfate.
If you end up with sparge water left over that never makes it into your kettle, reduce your sparge value on the spreadsheet by a corresponding amount.
-TH-
Well-Known Member
It depends on when you are adding your sparge water salts. If you are adding them to all of your sparge water prior to sparging, then use that volume in the spreadsheet. If you are waiting to add the salts until post-sparge in the boil kettle, then you should only enter into the spreadsheet the actual sparge water used, because in effect you are only treating that amount of water.
Make sense?
Yes, this is pretty much what I'm getting at. There are a few gallons of water left in my HLT after sparging, along with some amount left in the MLT. I do not treat my sparge water at all, but I do treat the mash water. The reason for this, is that my water isn't far off at all for most styles of beer that I brew. So, typically, I just need to lower the pH a bit, and add some sulfate. Since sulfate helps lower the mash pH, I just put it all in the mash, so I get my target pH, and the diluted result in the BK with the desired mineral content. For this reason, I've been putting the [pre-boil volume - mash water volume] for the sparge value, and unchecking the box that says "adjusting sparge water." So, the way understood it, that value is used to calculate the diluted result after sparging.
Am I interpreting this correctly?
Thanks again for the help!
-TH-
Well-Known Member
Tiber_Brew said:
Ah I see now. Yes you've got it right!
Great, thanks for your help!
They say the only dumb questions are the ones that don't get asked. I always like to tell the story of the president of my company who gave his annual 'things are going to be great' spiel and then asked for any questions. When there were none he reached into his pocket, pulled out a crisp new $100 bill, held it aloft and said he'd give it to anyone who asked a dumb question. The muse descended and I blurted out 'Is that real?' to which he responded 'That's a good question!'.
Anyway, the calcium is calcium in either case so the pH reducing effect (small relative to that of the acid) is the same. So the difference in the beers is the difference between the effects of chloride and sulfate. The former tends to increase sense of mouthfeel, roundness and sweetness. Sulfate tends to make hops bitterness more aggressive. This is while you will see some remarks about using gypsum in British style beers where the sulfate related hops characteristics are considered desirable but not in German beers where they are not.
Anyway, the calcium is calcium in either case so the pH reducing effect (small relative to that of the acid) is the same. So the difference in the beers is the difference between the effects of chloride and sulfate. The former tends to increase sense of mouthfeel, roundness and sweetness. Sulfate tends to make hops bitterness more aggressive. This is while you will see some remarks about using gypsum in British style beers where the sulfate related hops characteristics are considered desirable but not in German beers where they are not.
Willum
Well-Known Member
I have a question related to the primer. I have been successfully using the guidelines in the primer, with minor modifications, for a while now. I am in the process of switching over to BIAB. It looks like I need more acid malt to reach my desired PH. I am basing this off of brunwater and ezwater, which are dead on with my normal batch sparge method. I assume the difference is because of the no-sparge nature of BIAB (more water in the mash), but I am just wondering if there is something I am missing. I know it has been mentioned to use less then 4% (affects flavor?), but I am thinking that statement assumes the full volume of water is not in the mash tun. 
The Primer assumes you are using water with low alkalinity (i.e. RO water or tap water diluted with RO to the point where the alkalinity is below 30). Thus the acid malt is there mostly to combat the alkalinity of the malt. Thus it doesn't matter how you sparge. The correct amount of acid malt is the amount that sets the mash pH correctly.
The 4% limitation is thought to be the level above which the sauermalz would render the beer tasting lactic. Sauermalz has a flavor effect at this level and below but that is generally thought to be a positive one by those who detect it but not all users do.
The 4% limitation is thought to be the level above which the sauermalz would render the beer tasting lactic. Sauermalz has a flavor effect at this level and below but that is generally thought to be a positive one by those who detect it but not all users do.
Willum
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that the amount of water is irrelevant? I am not using RO water, but I have relatively low amounts of minerals in my tap water. I follow the primer, but I often add slacked lime in place of calcium chloride. I started by using the primer, but making the end result equal to what it would if I were starting with RO/DI water. The only mineral that I have more the 20ppm is chloride, so I add less of that. It works for me and my PH is steady. I am just questioning how adding 10 gallons of at mash in will change instead of adding 5.
My water report is below.
pH 7.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 157
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.26
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.2 / 2.3
ppm
Sodium, Na 21
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 16
Magnesium, Mg 5
Total Hardness, CaCO3 61
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.2 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 3
Chloride, Cl 42
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 56
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 46
Total Phosphorus, P 1.06
Total Iron, Fe 0.03
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit
My uneducated guess makes me think that the disparity is because of the bicarbonate in my water as compared to RO/DI water?
First observation is that slaked lime is a powerful alkali. If you add enough of it to pick up 40 mg/L calcium you are increasing the alkalinity of your water by about 100. That can be overcome by adding acid but you might as well just add calcium chloride or calcium sulfate instead of the hydroxide and then the acid.
Yes, the amount of water is a minor consideration if the water is soft (low in mineral content). The acid has to overcome the alkalinity of the malt and it has to overcome the alkalinity of the water. If the water contains little alkalinity then the amount of water doesn't matter much. If it contains lots then it does. You are right at the dividing line between low and moderate alkalinity so with your water you might find that you need a bit of extra acid if you mash in with the full volume rather than a subset.
Yes, the amount of water is a minor consideration if the water is soft (low in mineral content). The acid has to overcome the alkalinity of the malt and it has to overcome the alkalinity of the water. If the water contains little alkalinity then the amount of water doesn't matter much. If it contains lots then it does. You are right at the dividing line between low and moderate alkalinity so with your water you might find that you need a bit of extra acid if you mash in with the full volume rather than a subset.
Yes, changing the amount of water in the tun with the grist will affect mash pH. This is less true for really low alkalinity water, but is especially true as the tap water alkalinity rises. There is a limited amount of acid provided by the grist. There is X mg/L of alkalinity added with every drop of water in the tun. The acid quantity minus the total alkalinity added via the water drives the mash pH.
The BIAB method is a good case in point since typically the whole charge of water is added at once and the bag steeped. In this case, you assume that the mash water volume is the total water volume in contact with the grain and there is probably no (little??) sparge water.
I see that this water is pretty nice and I'm hoping that lime is only added in those cases where Bru'n Water says its really needed. As AJ says, its a powerful alkali. You definitely want the mash pH to end a little low than a little high. So an easy hand with the lime is important to avoid screwing a batch of beer.
Willum
Well-Known Member
I am using very small amounts of slacked lime. Just enough to get the water up to 50ppm calcium. I read in a few books that water with less then 50ppm can cause problems? It is often between 1-2 grams in 10 gallons of water.
The reason I added the lime was in place of calcium chloride, to make for the fact that my water already had 42 chloride. It was not in addition to, but in place of. This of course is variable, based on how much chloride/calcium I am looking to end up with.
This was my assumption, but I wanted to ask someone to confirm, thanks! Just so I have it right in my head, the "Total Alkalinity, CaCO3" is what we are talking about right? I assume because RO/DI water would have 0, less acid would be required to reach the same PH. As the volume of water increases so the does the acid requirement.
In my case, no sparge water at all. This is a change for me, as I have always used a three vessel system and batch sparged. I want to go all electric and a 3 vessel system is just not in the cards.
The reason I added the lime was in place of calcium chloride, to make for the fact that my water already had 42 chloride. It was not in addition to, but in place of. This of course is variable, based on how much chloride/calcium I am looking to end up with.
This was my assumption, but I wanted to ask someone to confirm, thanks! Just so I have it right in my head, the "Total Alkalinity, CaCO3" is what we are talking about right? I assume because RO/DI water would have 0, less acid would be required to reach the same PH. As the volume of water increases so the does the acid requirement.
In my case, no sparge water at all. This is a change for me, as I have always used a three vessel system and batch sparged. I want to go all electric and a 3 vessel system is just not in the cards.
Try using Bru'n Water to check what that does to your alkalinity (even in 10 gallons). For example, to raise my bicarbonate in 4.5 gallons of mash water to the 60s (for a dry stout) I only need about .5 grams of lime. You're likely adding more alkalinity than you want to add.
I'm hoping that you're adding lime only as needed to provide the alkalinity needed for your mash. Don't add it based on its calcium contribution or you are likely to add too much alkalinity to the mash and the pH could be too high. Using calcium chloride and calcium sulfate are the preferred additives to raise calcium content.
.
Willum
Well-Known Member
According to Bru'n Water 1 gram in 10 gallons increases my calcium to 30.3 and my bicarbonate to 96.
I think you are being led down the garden path a wee bit here. While in principal the amount of water does have an effect on pH in practice it is, for low alkalinity waters, small. Let's take your water and call its alkalinity 50 ppm as CaCO3 because that's a nice round number: 1 mEq/L. To move one L of that water to pH 5.4 will, assuming it comes to you at pH 7, require 0.9 mEq/L. Assuming that you put 455 g of malt in that liter of water (about 1 qt/lb) and that the malt had the typical buffering capacity of 25 - 30 mEq/pH-kg to move that malt from pH 5.8 to 5.4 would require 25*.4*455/1000= 4.55 to 5.46 mEq per pound of grain + liter of water for a total of about 5 (splitting the difference between 25 and 30 for the grain). The 0.9 for the water is about 15% of the total. That's what I meant when I said most of the acid goes to take care of the grain. Given a nominal buffering capacity for the grain of 27.5 mEq/kg-pH 0.9 mEq more of less of acid will move the pH of a pound of grain by 0.9/(27.5/2) = 0.06 pH. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's significant or not. As I said, you are right on the borderline.
