Cost Savings in Electric?

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BucksPA

BucksPA

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My Brutus 10 clone was can be viewed in my signature runs off of propane. I typically get 1.5 seperate brew sessions for each Lowe's purchased propane tank. Each tank costs $20 and each brew session is used for heating up sparge water (9-10 gallons), strike water (4-7 gallons), and used for a vigorous boil at about 11% evaporation rate per hour, typically 60 minute boils.

I brew a lot and am have 3 tanks on hand, but am spending so much on propane I wonder if there are cost savings with electric versus propane.

Can an electric setup be used for less than approximately $13-15 per session?

If you really want to get technical, mr electric runs 10 cents kw.
 
In my opinion electricity has got to be cheaper than all that propane. If you wanted to do a rough estimate on math just assume it takes 30 minutes to heat up your system, 60 mins for a mash, another 20-30 to heat up to boiling, than 60 minutes of boiling. Assume you're using 22amps at 240V's that entire time and you can try to estimate costs.
If I'm doing my math right, using an online calculator, thats 5280Watts of energy for 3 hours at 10cents per kwh would add up to about $1.58 in electricity charges for a 3 hour brew session. Of course this will vary greatly with how long it actually takes depending on the amount of water you're heating and boiling and how cold the water is to start. Even if it takes you 4 hours you're still only talking $2.11

If anyone else wants to chime in here and do their own calculations it would be helpful to see if others agree with this very rough estimate. But, it looks like it would be much cheaper overall.

http://www.webmath.com/kwh.html
http://www.supercircuits.com/resources/tools/Volts-Watts-Amps-Converter
 
I have a RIMs system similar to www.theelectricbrewery.com. I have a panel mounted amp meter. I would agree with the analysis above. However, with PID control rarely are the elements running at 100%. Even though my brew day is approx 3 hrs, the only time the elements are at 100% is during the intial strike water warming, and warming up the bk to boil. My rims tube once it hits the mash temp pretty stays < 10% PID. I set my BK down to 60% PID once I hit a boil. With all that in mind I would take the 1.58$ above and drop it well below 1$.
 
Math looks good, I'd say you're even way overestimating since most E-rigs don't run wide open at 22-23 amps for most of the time. For most of the mash you're at 10-20% power to maintain temps, (could be a bit less or more depending on insulation), and for boil you're at 50-75% depending on how vigorous a boil and again insulation.

The other way to look at it is: You will need to raise 15 gallons of water from 10C to 100C, and boil 1.5 gallons of it into steam.

15 gallons of water is 56.8 kg. Water's specific heat is 4.18 kJ/kg/K, you are going from 10 C to 100C which is 90K delta. So you need 21,368 kJ.

Latent heat of vaporization is 2260 kJ/kg, 1.5 gallons of water weighs 5.68 kg. Energy to boil is 12,836 kJ.

So total is 34,204 kJ. Assume 80% efficiency to account for heat loss, you're at 42,759 kJ. One watt is 1 J/s. One kW is 1 kJ/s. so you need 42,759 kW*s, divide by 3600 seconds in an hour and you need 11.88 kW*h. At $0.10/kW*h, that's $1.19.
 
electricity without argument is cheaper than propane. The cost of your system depending on complexity can negate the savings. I built my system b/c thats the system I wanted and would never go back to propane. Cost savings on fuel is not in my oppinion alone the best reason to go electric. except for inexpensive heat sticks the cost of equipment would eat up the fuel savings.
 
shortyjacobs said:
Math looks good, I'd say you're even way overestimating since most E-rigs don't run wide open at 22-23 amps for most of the time. For most of the mash you're at 10-20% power to maintain temps, (could be a bit less or more depending on insulation), and for boil you're at 50-75% depending on how vigorous a boil and again insulation.

The other way to look at it is: You will need to raise 15 gallons of water from 10C to 100C, and boil 1.5 gallons of it into steam.

15 gallons of water is 56.8 kg. Water's specific heat is 4.18 kJ/kg/K, you are going from 10 C to 100C which is 90K delta. So you need 21,368 kJ.

Latent heat of vaporization is 2260 kJ/kg, 1.5 gallons of water weighs 5.68 kg. Energy to boil is 12,836 kJ.

So total is 34,204 kJ. Assume 80% efficiency to account for heat loss, you're at 42,759 kJ. One watt is 1 J/s. One kW is 1 kJ/s. so you need 42,759 kW*s, divide by 3600 seconds in an hour and you need 11.88 kW*h. At $0.10/kW*h, that's $1.19.
Click to expand...

I think my head just exploded. :drunk:
 
shortyjacobs said:
The other way to look at it is: You will need to raise 15 gallons of water from 10C to 100C, and boil 1.5 gallons of it into steam.
Click to expand...

since I love nit-picking, I'll just add that you won't raise all 15 gallons to 100°C: some will be absorbed by the grain. But otherwise, that's exactly how I would calculate the cost. :mug:
 
my system cost $2300 to build from the groun up. I dont care though, because hobbies aren't cheap. If i wanted to brew beer to save money, I'd be brewing corn and rice beers. However, when it comes to down to brew day (twice a month), I'd love to get that cost down to $60 for 10 gallons versus $80.

So what you guys are telling me is great news. The cost to build on the front end doesn't matter as much as the cost on the back end every time i brew.

That's a big difference $13 per session versus $1 or $2 max.

thanks.
 
zeno27 said:
since I love nit-picking, I'll just add that you won't raise all 15 gallons to 100°C: some will be absorbed by the grain. But otherwise, that's exactly how I would calculate the cost. :mug:
Click to expand...

lol, I knew someone would pick up on that.

See, trick is, you're also having to heat grain up from ~10C to whatever the hell mash temp is in C....and I didn't feel like figuring THAT bit out. (Specific heat of barley, WTF? :drunk:). I suppose I could have figured it out by knowing how much, say, 25 lbs of 50F grain will drop the strike water temp, but that was too much work. I figured that by just saying I'm heating everything to 100C, I'll capture the absorption/grain heating bit under the umbrella ;).
 
BucksPA said:
my system cost $2300 to build from the groun up. I dont care though, because hobbies aren't cheap. If i wanted to brew beer to save money, I'd be brewing corn and rice beers. However, when it comes to down to brew day (twice a month), I'd love to get that cost down to $60 for 10 gallons versus $80.

So what you guys are telling me is great news. The cost to build on the front end doesn't matter as much as the cost on the back end every time i brew.

That's a big difference $13 per session versus $1 or $2 max.

thanks.
Click to expand...

lol, 12 bucks saved a session, 2300 bucks in, you only have to brew 192 batches to recoup your costs! At 10 gallons a batch, and 200 gallons max per year, that's a repayment time of only 9.6 years.

On second thought, I'm not going to show these numbers to SWMBO. :drunk:
 
I LOVE my electric rig and will never go back to propane!

That said, why not get one of those 100 pound tanks? If you're using that much propane, you could pick up a 100 pounder. I use 2 100 pound tanks at my cottage, and I paid about $85 for the last exchange at my propane dealer. He owns the tanks, and his name is stamped on them. I don't pay a deposit or anything, just take the tank back to him and pick up a full one when I need one. He also delivers for no charge when he's in the area, so sometimes I have him deliver sometimes I just pick it up myself.
 
shortyjacobs said:
Math looks good, I'd say you're even way overestimating since most E-rigs don't run wide open at 22-23 amps for most of the time. For most of the mash you're at 10-20% power to maintain temps, (could be a bit less or more depending on insulation), and for boil you're at 50-75% depending on how vigorous a boil and again insulation.

The other way to look at it is: You will need to raise 15 gallons of water from 10C to 100C, and boil 1.5 gallons of it into steam.

15 gallons of water is 56.8 kg. Water's specific heat is 4.18 kJ/kg/K, you are going from 10 C to 100C which is 90K delta. So you need 21,368 kJ.

Latent heat of vaporization is 2260 kJ/kg, 1.5 gallons of water weighs 5.68 kg. Energy to boil is 12,836 kJ.

So total is 34,204 kJ. Assume 80% efficiency to account for heat loss, you're at 42,759 kJ. One watt is 1 J/s. One kW is 1 kJ/s. so you need 42,759 kW*s, divide by 3600 seconds in an hour and you need 11.88 kW*h. At $0.10/kW*h, that's $1.19.
Click to expand...

Holy crap, somebody likes math a little too much:)!! Nice calculations though!
 
shortyjacobs said:
lol, 12 bucks saved a session, 2300 bucks in, you only have to brew 192 batches to recoup your costs! At 10 gallons a batch, and 200 gallons max per year, that's a repayment time of only 9.6 years.

On second thought, I'm not going to show these numbers to SWMBO. :drunk:
Click to expand...

I did those numbers too... and then decided to just show her the per batch cost savings :rockin:
 
shortyjacobs said:
Math looks good, I'd say you're even way overestimating since most E-rigs don't run wide open at 22-23 amps for most of the time. For most of the mash you're at 10-20% power to maintain temps, (could be a bit less or more depending on insulation), and for boil you're at 50-75% depending on how vigorous a boil and again insulation.

The other way to look at it is: You will need to raise 15 gallons of water from 10C to 100C, and boil 1.5 gallons of it into steam.

15 gallons of water is 56.8 kg. Water's specific heat is 4.18 kJ/kg/K, you are going from 10 C to 100C which is 90K delta. So you need 21,368 kJ.

Latent heat of vaporization is 2260 kJ/kg, 1.5 gallons of water weighs 5.68 kg. Energy to boil is 12,836 kJ.

So total is 34,204 kJ. Assume 80% efficiency to account for heat loss, you're at 42,759 kJ. One watt is 1 J/s. One kW is 1 kJ/s. so you need 42,759 kW*s, divide by 3600 seconds in an hour and you need 11.88 kW*h. At $0.10/kW*h, that's $1.19.
Click to expand...

Oh I do love some thermodynamics.:drunk:
 
shortyjacobs said:
lol, 12 bucks saved a session, 2300 bucks in, you only have to brew 192 batches to recoup your costs! At 10 gallons a batch, and 200 gallons max per year, that's a repayment time of only 9.6 years.

On second thought, I'm not going to show these numbers to SWMBO. :drunk:
Click to expand...

yeah i wouldnt tell her either. i know youre busting chops, but i never said i was interesting in switching systems to recoup money. the upfront cost from all of our systems immediately negates any savings from homebrewing.

i am just sick of refilling multiple tanks all the time.
 
If you're spending 80$ to brew 10 gallons then there has to be even more of an opportunity to drive down the cost. Seems really high to me .. unless you're making barley wine.
 
The math is well done and interesting, but all any homebrewer has to understand is that if you're heating a pot with a gas flame, a lot of that heat just goes out into the environment and is therefore wasted, no matter how you're set up. An electric heating element immersed in the liquid (water, wort, or etc.) is going to transfer almost all of its energy directly to the liquid. The pot will of course lose heat through its walls, and from evaporation and boiling, but the heat input of immersion electric elements is far, far more efficient than any gas burner can possibly be.
 
jusware said:
If you're spending 80$ to brew 10 gallons then there has to be even more of an opportunity to drive down the cost. Seems really high to me .. unless you're making barley wine.
Click to expand...

Bingo. With group buys on grain, buying hops on sale, and re-using yeast, my typical pale ale or IPA 5 gallon batch is well under $20 (not counting electric or propane cost or cost of running my well pump to ic the wort or clean up).
 
i do group buys. i buy 20 gallons of poland spring as my tap water is so horrible that it failed last year. that's $20, plus i always calculate $20 for a propane tank, so that's $40 of that $80 right there. The actual math would be $13 a tank though. I was giving a rough figure, though. And i'm too lazy to step up a yeast starter so i just buy extra yeast. It's a hobby, not a cost saver.

Let's be honest, I just need an excuse to tell the wife that I'm going to start a new build. :)
 
A big thing to realize is those propane tanks in the exchange are around 15lbs. They are 20lbs tanks but they are filling them with less and less to keep the cost they charge you the same. The label on them should say how much is actually in them. I bought
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009XCFRE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Only costs $12-15 to fill to full 20lbs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No LP vendor I've ever used fills tanks with more LP than the tare (empty) weight stamped onto the flange on the top. Most tanks are 18 - 18.5 lbs. Whatever that says, that's what they fill them to. So they put them on a scale, and when an 18 lb. tare weight tank reads 36 pounds on the scale, they stop. I have always been told they cannot put 20 lbs in them, whatever the truth behind that statement.
 
About 2 years ago maybe longer Blue Rhino went around and picked up all tanks considered 20 lb and replaced them with 15lb tanks. If you have older tanks that are considered 20 lb it's cheaper to have filled. I take 2 tanks to u-haul and have filled when empty. Last time cost me 27.00 to fill both. Exchange here is 19.99 per tank. I saved around 13.00. I use 1 on grill but it's there on brew day if needed.
 
BigAl said:
About 2 years ago maybe longer Blue Rhino went around and picked up all tanks considered 20 lb and replaced them with 15lb tanks. If you have older tanks that are considered 20 lb it's cheaper to have filled. I take 2 tanks to u-haul and have filled when empty. Last time cost me 27.00 to fill both. Exchange here is 19.99 per tank. I saved around 13.00. I use 1 on grill but it's there on brew day if needed.
Click to expand...

They are the same tanks, tank size didn't change. However, new safety laws required propane tanks to have a overfill prevention device. For a time (a couple years ago, as you say) Blue Rhino did accept old tanks without the OPD in exchange for tanks with the OPD. BR then took the old tanks and swapped out the old valve with a new valve/OPD assembly. The space taken up in the tank by the OPD necessitated a small reduction in the amount of propane that could fit in the tank. After that there have been a couple time that BR simply reduced the amount of propane in the tank (first to 17lb then 15lb) and simply changed their label on the tank, the tank is no different and if you take that empty "15 lb" BR tank to u-haul, they will put more than 15 lb in it.

Personally, much like my CO2 tank in my kegerator, I only swap my tank with BR when the hydro-test date is coming due. ;)
 
Yeah, what Yooper said in post #12. When I had my propane rig, I got tired of messin' with 20# tanks and went with 100 pounders. The company delivers a full one & takes away the empty & it was mush cheaper. I just had to rig a longer hose to extend from the rig to outside of the back door of the garage.

I'm going all electric now to brew in the basement and really looking forward to it - I think it'll be much cheaper that pro-pain!
 
i honestly don't want a 100 pounder or even a 75 pounder. I have 3 (one is on the grill....kind of acts as a spare) and two to work with. They are not always all filled at once.

To Junkster's point, I need to be able to brew in a warm setting when it is cold out. Last year I had to run hoses from the washer/dryer lines as my outdoor hoses would freeze up. With my propane I would have to keep the garage open and would freeze out there.

Electric is so clean......at the consumer level.
 
Hands down....Go electric. It's hassle free, quiet, clean, consistent, and cheap on brew day.


Everybody in my brewclub hates their propane hassle and stress after seeing me punch in my strike temp and walk away.
 
O'Haggerty said:
Hands down....Go electric. It's hassle free, quiet, clean, consistent, and cheap on brew day.


Everybody in my brewclub hates their propane hassle and stress after seeing me punch in my strike temp and walk away.
Click to expand...

Hahaha, i punch in my strike temp and walk away.........after I do 20 other things, all just to walk back in 3 minutes to make sure nothing exploded!
 
GTO_Guy said:
Natural gas stub with a homemade burner for the WIN!
Click to expand...

Nope, i've been Brewing that way from the get go, and let me tell you I can't wait to convert to electric.

Recirculating mashes
Pin point mash temps
Step mashing
Cheaper than propane

All a bonus over a "manually" operated gas burner.

-=Jason=-
Sent from my HTC Incredible using Home Brew Talk
 
I basically tell people ask that it's about 1/10th the cost of using propane.

Of course, electrical costs and propane refill costs change from area to area, but 1/10th is a safe bet in most North American cities if you're trying for a rough estimate.

That said, going electric to save money was probably the last reason I did it. I would have done it even if it cost more than propane.

Kal
 
yeah, i like your setup kal. well done. its still very early on regarding the amount of research ive done for an e-build. this thread has been answered, so perhaps i'll start up a new one regarding my next question......

thanks all
 

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