Lager starter/pitching/temps

Ok. I have heard a lot of different opinions about the following, so I put out my own feelers on the issue:

1) should the lager starter be kept at the same temperature that the lager is going to ferment at or should it just be kept somewhere closer to 65-70 F?

2) what is the best yeast pitching temp for a lager? I hear people saying to pitch at below 50 degrees and let it come up; I have also heard to pitch about 5 degrees above the fermenting temperature and let it slowly fall.

3). My issue is that it will take me a long time get the wort below 60 degrees (especially 50). In the summer, I don't think the immersion chiller will get it much below 70, regardless of the fact that I am pumping ice water into the via a submersible pump. So, I think this means, that for me to get the temp below 60 degrees, I would essentially have to cool it to 70 with the immersion chiller, then put it in the fermentation bucket and then stick the fermentation bucket in the fridge or icewater for an additional 20-30 minutes before pitching. My issues with this are that 1) I would be worried about the additional time without yeast for an infection take hold and become the dominant culture; and 2) it seems like some of the aeration I achieved by splashing the wort while pouring it into the bucket (my sophisticated aeration method) would be lost by the time I pitched the yeast. Should I just pitch at right under 70 or is the extra time ok or is there some other affordable/practical method I can employ?

What are your opinions these three points; any of these questions (especially number 3) that you can answer, would be much appreciated, or any other advice. This is an octoberfest with Wyeast Octoberfest. THANKS!

1.) room temp is better. You're making yeast, not beer, and yeast grows better at warmer temps.

2.) IME, my lagers got much better if I pitched below my intended fermentation temp. I try to pitch when the wort is between 45-50F

3.) the method you propose is fine. It will be much better to chill before pitching than to pitch warm. Many people chill the wort overnight, then rack off the trub before pitching. You don't necessarily need to go that far, but do not pitch warm. And don't warm up the yeast before pitching. Take it out of the fridge, decant, and pitch immediately.

thanks. the manufacture date on my wyeast octoberfest is June 13, 2013. Beersmith is telling me I need 3 packs and 4 liter starter!!! that is like $20 of yeast and a gallon of starter. That just seems crazy to me. Is there anyway I can do it with less and be ok?

I mean with a gallon starter, about 20% of the batch would be starter.

Mr Malty says only 2.5 liters, but still need 3 packs!?!?!?

nolabrew85 said:

I mean with a gallon starter, about 20% of the batch would be starter.

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No, because you decant the spent wort before pitching.

nolabrew85 said:

Mr Malty says only 2.5 liters, but still need 3 packs!?!?!?

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Or you can make a larger starter with fewer packs. Assuming a 5.25 gal. batch of a 1.060 Ofest, you can use 1 pack with a 14L starter. If you hop the "starter", you can just make a 3.5 gal. batch first, then use that slurry for your Ofest.

Denny said:

Or you can make a larger starter with fewer packs. Assuming a 5.25 gal. batch of a 1.060 Ofest, you can use 1 pack with a 14L starter. If you hop the "starter", you can just make a 3.5 gal. batch first, then use that slurry for your Ofest.

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A 14 LITER starter? As in, 3.5 gallons of starter? Holy massive pitch monsters, Batman!

homebrewdad said:

A 14 LITER starter? As in, 3.5 gallons of starter? Holy massive pitch monsters, Batman!

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Yep. IME, not uncommon for a lager. Which is why I suggested making a small, low gravity batch and using that yeast for the Ofest.

Or, 2 packs of yeast and a 5.7L starter.

ok. Denny, I appreciate all your help, but the more info I get the more questions I have. So I thank you in advance for your patience. I have only done 1 lager before. My Ofest should come out with about 1.057 OG. Before starting this thread, I already smacked the wyeast, but only have one pack and only have one pound of DME. Can I just make a 3 liter starter tonight with 12 oz DME, and then tomorrow when I am able to get more yeast and DME, step it up by adding 2.7 L (with 10 oz DME) and the other pack of yeast? Or is it just better to wait for everything, regardless of the fact that I already activated the pack.

Also, when decanting, do I just cold crash the starter once it is finished bubbling and then just carefully pour most of the spent wort out or should I siphon it out? thanks.

Denny said:

1.) room temp is better. You're making yeast, not beer, and yeast grows better at warmer temps.

2.) IME, my lagers got much better if I pitched below my intended fermentation temp. I try to pitch when the wort is between 45-50F

3.) the method you propose is fine. It will be much better to chill before pitching than to pitch warm. Many people chill the wort overnight, then rack off the trub before pitching. You don't necessarily need to go that far, but do not pitch warm. And don't warm up the yeast before pitching. Take it out of the fridge, decant, and pitch immediately.

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+1 on all..When I was trying to cool my wort, I had the hardest time cooling it down to pitch temp. Especially in the summer. Now I cool it as much as I can, then drain into a BB and put it in my fermentation freezer at about 45 and pitch the next day. Works great.

Yah, you can do the step up. I doubt it will be ready for it in a day, though. I'd start with what you have ASAP. Give it 3-4 days to ferment out (less if you use a stir plate), put it in the fridge a couple days to rash the yeast, decant, then step up and give it another 2-3 days to ferment and 1-2 days to crash. Carefully pouring out the starter wort is fine.

ok. that's a long time. Will give it a shot. thanks. I already got my malt crushed today. You think it will still be good by the time brew day comes or should I just suck it up and buy new crushed malt then?

nolabrew85 said:

ok. that's a long time. Will give it a shot. thanks. I already got my malt crushed today. You think it will still be good by the time brew day comes or should I just suck it up and buy new crushed malt then?

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It'll stay good for weeka or months. I had malt crushed for a pils once, then I had a heart attack. It was 2+ months until I could brew and it was still fine. Just keeo it cool and dry, like in the back of a closet.

Good to hear (except for the heart attack part!). Thanks again for the help!

So. last night I just ended up making a 4 liter starter with 16 oz of DME and the first packet of Ofest Wyeast. The only other containers I have larger than 4 liters are my 5 gallon carboys, which seem a little unwieldy for fooling with a yeast starter (or maybe not, never tried). So I was wondering if instead of "stepping up" the 4 liter starter I already made, I just make a 2 liter starter with 8 oz of DME in my erlenmeyer flask and just put the second wyeast pack in that and just have them separate and then just decant and pitch both when it is time to pitch. Thoughts? Thanks.

nolabrew85 said:

1) should the lager starter be kept at the same temperature that the lager is going to ferment at or should it just be kept somewhere closer to 65-70 F?

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I do all my starters, ale and lagers, at room temperature. The point of the starter is to grow a healthy population of yeast from a small vial or smack pack, not to drink it.

2) what is the best yeast pitching temp for a lager? I hear people saying to pitch at below 50 degrees and let it come up; I have also heard to pitch about 5 degrees above the fermenting temperature and let it slowly fall.

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If you've made an appropriate sized starter then pitch when the wort is 4 - 5 degrees below your targeted fermentation temperature. The heat of the fermenting wort will bring it up to this range. Pitching cold helps to prevent avoidable off-flavors.

If you don't have an appropriate sized starter then you could pitch it a few degrees warmer than your targeted fermentation temperature. This will grow the population and get your fermentation kicked off, however you're increasing your chances of perceptible off-flavors by fermenting too warm.

Pitching the right sized and active starter is key with making a quality lager.

3). My issue is that it will take me a long time get the wort below 60 degrees (especially 50). In the summer, I don't think the immersion chiller will get it much below 70, regardless of the fact that I am pumping ice water into the via a submersible pump. So, I think this means, that for me to get the temp below 60 degrees, I would essentially have to cool it to 70 with the immersion chiller, then put it in the fermentation bucket and then stick the fermentation bucket in the fridge or icewater for an additional 20-30 minutes before pitching. My issues with this are that 1) I would be worried about the additional time without yeast for an infection take hold and become the dominant culture; and 2) it seems like some of the aeration I achieved by splashing the wort while pouring it into the bucket (my sophisticated aeration method) would be lost by the time I pitched the yeast. Should I just pitch at right under 70 or is the extra time ok or is there some other affordable/practical method I can employ?

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I use a chest freezer as my fermentation freezer, but I usually have to wait 4 - 5 hours after my brew day is over before I can pitch the yeast. It's not uncommon for some people to wait until the next day to pitch. If you're confident that you've sanitized everything properly then you have nothing to worry about.

What are your opinions these three points; any of these questions (especially number 3) that you can answer, would be much appreciated, or any other advice. This is an octoberfest with Wyeast Octoberfest. THANKS![/QUOTE]

homebrewdad said:

A 14 LITER starter? As in, 3.5 gallons of starter? Holy massive pitch monsters, Batman!

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Yep, pretty typical for bigger lagers actually. A proper pitch rate is crucial for cold pitching, and it's pretty darn important for warm pitching too!

Yooper said:

Yep, pretty typical for bigger lagers actually. A proper pitch rate is crucial for cold pitching, and it's pretty darn important for warm pitching too!

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A good reason to establish a potential "house lager yeast" that you can collect in large quantities of slurry and repitch multiple times before starting from the bottom and building a starter up again. I try to plan my lagers out in a progressive order - starting with a small 1.040-45 helles or pilsner, and then collecting a couple 2-3 mason jars off of this beer. I can then use those jars of slurry in 2-3 L starters instead of lots of step ups or making massive starters. I try to progress in the size of beers each time through1.04's, 1.05's, 1.06's from one generation to the next.

I too was STUNNED when I started plugging in numbers for lager starters in Mr. Malty. Something I am trying to get better at though in my brewing is pitching better starters, especially lagers. All of my best lagers have come off of repitched yeast slurries......

I just brewed an Octoberfest all grain with wyeast oldest. It is currently in the primary in my lager fridge with a temp of 54 degrees. I created a single (650 ml) yeast starter at room temperature and let it sit on a stir plate for 12 hours. Once The primary is done I will put in secondary and drop temp of fridge by two degrees a day until at a range around 35. This my first ever lager but pitched the yeast at 62 and kept both in fridge. We will see how it comes out.

Do yall reuse starsan solution? I will use it for several applications on brew day, but I was wondering about reusing the 5 gals of solution I have left over and covered from brewing last night to sanitize a few things while pitching yeast today after the wort has reached about 48 degrees in the fridge. I was planning on pouring it into another fermenter from the carboy it's chilling in now in an effort to re-aerate or otherwise aerate as much as possible--think it's worth the extra work or am I not introducing that much more oxygen from the first time I aerated last night by shaking ferementer while pouring wort in?

nolabrew85 said:

Do yall reuse starsan solution? I will use it for several applications on brew day, but I was wondering about reusing the 5 gals of solution I have left over and covered from brewing last night to sanitize a few things while pitching yeast today after the wort has reached about 48 degrees in the fridge. I was planning on pouring it into another fermenter from the carboy it's chilling in now in an effort to re-aerate or otherwise aerate as much as possible--think it's worth the extra work or am I not introducing that much more oxygen from the first time I aerated last night by shaking ferementer while pouring wort in?

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Yes, reuse the star-san!

I was just saying in another thread the other day that I've been using star-san for 7 years, and I'm on my second bottle! I tend to make up a gallon at a time, keep it in a glass jug and fill a squirt bottle. I end up spilling it all by using it before it would "go bad". As long as the pH is under 3, it's fine to use and reuse.

However, I doubt I'd re aerate this batch- I'd just pitch.

thanks for the help everyone. I pitched the huge yeast starter at 1 pm when the wort reached 148. By the time I got home at 8, the airlock was already bubbling!