Pliny the Younger Clone

Awesome, thanks for the info.

How long will it keep after you open the can?

I bought some cheap plastic syringes on ebay, and made my own hopshots. Extract is extremely shelf stable if un-opened. I would think it would oxidize rather quick once opened.

Btw, I think fermentation stopped a little higher than hoped for. There was no airlock activity this morning. I'm guessing I stalled at 1.011-1.012 or so. I don't think it'll be a massive difference. We'll see.

Alright, 1.010, and not budging. That's not quite as low as I wanted, but not a big deal (we're only talking 2 points). If anyone is taking a stab at this, use more dextrose. Or US05. US05 does attenuate a little better.

I tossed the first batch of dry hops straight in the primary. I know Vinnie doesn't do that, but eh....Those will sit for 4 days before I rack to secondary (keg)

What yeast did you end up using this go-around?

Perhaps slightly less carapils and crystal 40 will help in addition to raising the corn sugar by 1-2%. You're already at 5% corn sugar as it is. I don't think it's much higher than that.

WLP001.

Last time around it was more C40, more dextrose, same amount of Carapils, higher mash temp, and better attenuation. US05 has always attenuated a little better than 001/1056 for me. As such, it's not as flocculent.

I think just moving back to 1.33lbs of Dextrose would get the job done, but hey, every fermentation is a snowflake.

subscribed

scottland said:

WLP001.

Last time around it was more C40, more dextrose, same amount of Carapils, higher mash temp, and better attenuation. US05 has always attenuated a little better than 001/1056 for me. As such, it's not as flocculent.

I think just moving back to 1.33lbs of Dextrose would get the job done, but hey, every fermentation is a snowflake.

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You notice drastic differences in better attenuation with US-05 vs. WLP001? That's odd. Perhaps it's because you pitched more cells of US-05... or added more nutrient for the prior batch... or like you said, you used more sugar. I've always had much better attenuation with a healthy pitch of liquid starter vs. any equivalent dry packet of yeast.

Specifically speaking about US05 and 001, yes, I've found 05 attenuates better. Same amount of cells, nutrients, O2, etc. US05 is slightly different than 001. I've consistently found it to attenuate a little more, and flocculate less.

Lately (for me at least), the flocculation has gotten really poor, and I like clear beer, so I've switched to 001.

Have you tried using gelatin to fine your beers? I use US-05 exclusively for my APAs and american IPAs. With gelatin fining and cold crashing I get perfectly bright beer

scottland said:

Lately (for me at least), the flocculation has gotten really poor, and I like clear beer, so I've switched to 001.

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Try WLP090. It flocs AND attenuates better than 001 with the same clean flavor profile. I regularly hit 84-86% attenuation and have clear beers without any special treatment, other than careful racking, time and patience.

@crazyirishman, scott mentioned he used gelatin to clear up his previous batch of younger.

I guess that I skimmed past that

Ya, I gelatin every batch. I'm kind of picky in that sense, but I like commercial quaility, bright beer. Even with gelatin, US05 takes 3-4 weeks to drop dead clear. 001 gets me there much quicker.

Ya, I've used 090 a couple times when it first came out. I like it a lot. Ferments fast, attenuates well, and ya, it flocs better than 001. I've got a vial in the fridge I'm going to pitch into a Scottish 60/- tomorrow. I'm going to use that pitch for a few batches.

I brewed my first attempt at PTY this past Sunday using Scottland’s recipe. I mashed at 148 rather than the two-step mashed proposed his second recipe simple because of the volumes and difficulty of a two-step infusion mash. I also stayed with 1.33 lbs of sugar and used a 2L starter of WLP090. Starting gravity was 1.089. This morning the gravity is around 1.036. I started fermentation at 64 which is a little warmer than Scottland recommendation with WLP001, but it looks like WLP090 likes it a bit warmer. After checking gravity this morning I raised that to 66. Looking good so far.

I took Scottland’s recommendation from his website and purchased hop extract from http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/. I tried to purchase hopshots from Northern Brewer, but they screwed up my order and didn’t ship it out after five days. I canceled that order and got the extract much cheaper from Yakima Valley Hops. The only challenge there was that the extract came in a tin can and I used 35 ML syringes from Petco because I didn’t want to wait for the proper syringes available on Ebay. One of the syringes came undone and I ended up with hop extract all over my hand. What a mess and the smell of hops on my hand for a day or two



Jim

Nice! WLP090 should treat you well. Let us know how it turns outs

Subscribe, gotta try this as soon as I can get my 10 gallon brew stand complete.

What eBay auction did you find the syringes at?

crazyirishman34 said:

What eBay auction did you find the syringes at?

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I bought them around a year ago. I don't remember. Search "luer lock syringe" on ebay. You'll find a bunch. You can usually get like 100x 20ml syringes for $20 or so. That'll last you a longgggg time.

Couple quick updates. I racked to secondary on Thursday. I'm playing around with one of those dry-hoppers from Stainless Brewing. Pretty cool. Anyway, I cleaned and sanitized it, put the hops in, and tossed it in keg, then gassed the keg from the liquid out post for awhile. Then i racked the beer over. There should have been pretty minimal O2 pickup, if any.

I took a sample today, it's tasting right on target. Third round of dry hops go in tomorrow, and the final dose on Friday. I'm getting exciting.

Cool I just ordered one of the dry hoppers too. Are you going to remove the spent hops as you go along?

Ya, that's the big advantage for me using this. On these beers I dry hop multiple times, I can pull out the old hops, clean the dry-hopper, and drop in the new hops. Well, that and not having to transfer to a new keg after dry hopping.

I'm just trying to be really careful not to oxidize the beer at this point. I'm probably using way more CO2 than needed, but CO2 is cheap ($1/lb for me).

It tastes really good so far. As long as I don't F' it up at this point, I think it's going to be spot-on.

scottland said:

Couple quick updates. I racked to secondary on Thursday. I'm playing around with one of those dry-hoppers from Stainless Brewing. Pretty cool. Anyway, I cleaned and sanitized it, put the hops in, and tossed it in keg, then gassed the keg from the liquid out post for awhile. Then i racked the beer over. There should have been pretty minimal O2 pickup, if any.

I took a sample today, it's tasting right on target. Third round of dry hops go in tomorrow, and the final dose on Friday. I'm getting exciting.

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Are you using that dry hopper to dry hop in a keg? Are you suspending it halfway in somehow? The pics on stainless brewing make it seem like it is suspended somehow, but I was wondering if that is included (or even needed).

klindeman said:

Are you using that dry hopper to dry hop in a keg? Are you suspending it halfway in somehow? The pics on stainless brewing make it seem like it is suspended somehow, but I was wondering if that is included (or even needed).

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Yes, and no.

It's much longer than you think. It's about 7/8ths the total length of the keg. You could fit like 20 lbs of hops inside of it if you wanted.

It's long enough, that you can fish it out of the keg with the little hook it comes with when it's resting on the bottom of the keg.

Does that make sense?

Given the volume of hops in a recipe like this, do you see much advantage of the dry hopper over suppending a hop bag in the keg with a piece of string?

thanks

I think that it would give you better contact with the hops. Also it is made of stainless more brewery bling.

scottland said:

Yes, and no.

It's much longer than you think. It's about 7/8ths the total length of the keg. You could fit like 20 lbs of hops inside of it if you wanted.

It's long enough, that you can fish it out of the keg with the little hook it comes with when it's resting on the bottom of the keg.

Does that make sense?

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Totally. Think I may have to pick one up.

I am having weird off favors in beers I secondary (to dry hop), which I think is oxidation. Dry hopping with this in my keg will let me purge with co2 to try and eliminate this as a problem area.

When you fish it out, do you let it drip dry into the keg for a minute or two, or should I just send it straight to the sink?

klindeman said:

Totally. Think I may have to pick one up.

I am having weird off favors in beers I secondary (to dry hop), which I think is oxidation. Dry hopping with this in my keg will let me purge with co2 to try and eliminate this as a problem area.

When you fish it out, do you let it drip dry into the keg for a minute or two, or should I just send it straight to the sink?

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I haven't got that far yet, hahah! Tonight is the next addition. I'm leaning towards pull it out, seal back up the keg, and purge with CO2 while I clean and sanitize the dry hopper for the next round. I really haven't thought it through yet.

One thing that perplexes me about this dry hop schedule is why four short-interval and small serial hop additions are not equal to an equivalently single large dose of the same volume and type of dry hops. I have search the web and listened to Vinnie discuss the subject and it seems that perhaps h eonly understands the phenomenon through direct experience and does not necessarily understand the cause behind the effect. However, today I heard Jamil discuss this subject on an old Brewing Network pod cast. Jamil suggested that perhaps what happens is that on a commercial scale, the dry hops settle to the bottom of the tank and after a few days, only a thin top layer of hops are exposed to the beer, and a significant volume lay underneath and remain unexposed. And by dumping the old hops and replacing them with fresh hops, a new and fresh layer is exposed to the beer. So, the question I have for you guys, particularly anyone with a dry hopper is; do you think perhaps a faster approach to dry hopping this recipe would be to dump the entire load of dry hops in all at once, and then a couple of times a day, gentle agitate the keg to unsettle the hops and in effect, continuously expose the entire volume of dry hops to the beer. Assuming one flushes the keg with CO2, it should’t have any air that would lead to oxidation. Then, rather than requiring 20 days to dry hop this recipe, the whole process could maybe be completed in 6 or 7 days. What do you think?

jim

I think the idea behind multi-stage dryhopping has more to do with the peak effectiveness of the aromatic dryhop oils being released is more like 3-4 days and not 7-14. The problem with this concept is that even though the dryhops have offered as much of their aromatic oils as possible in the shorter time frame, 3-4 total dryhopping days with only one stage of dryhops is not enough. The IPA would still benefit from an additional stage (or two, or three) of brief 3-4 day dryhopping with completely new dryhops for further concentration of intoxicating aroma. There is also the inconclusive belief that if you dryhop for longer than 5-7 days, the hops will start to release some flavors of vegetalness. Some never experience this result, but as a precaution it is one of the reasons that it's recommended to remove and discard the old dryhops each time you add the new set.

Like you mentioned jim, multi-stage dryhopping probably does have a little bit to do with ensuring full dryhop exposure with the beer and thus making each addition smaller instead of dumping in a ½ lb. of dryhops at once. That makes sense. But it also has to do with making the flavor & aroma so potent that it knocks you off your feet.

I employ a similar multi-stage practice when I make my Sangria, which I make in multiple gallons for parties. Let me explain… Instead of leaving 3-7 day soggy, awful, old fruit in the pitcher for the duration, I will add fruit for 2 days, remove it, add new fruit, and repeat this process three times. This creates an infusion. And each time I remove the old fruit, I blend it and press the liquid back into the sangria so nothing goes to waste. Instead of getting a cup half full of soggy fruit, you get a cup of sangria with tremendous fruit flavor and 3 pieces of fruit for garnish. This technique ensures optimal flavor and fruity aroma, plus your final fruit addition is added fresh, which looks better, still has crunch to it, and tastes better. There are no downsides except it is a little more time consuming. But this can be seen as an improvement on the usual method.

Some say that the best way to allow full dryhop contact with the beer is not to sprinkle them directly atop the beer. Rather, it is to weigh down a fine mesh bag of pellet hops so that it bobs in the middle of the beer with 100% exposure. You have to find the right type of bag that can give the pellet hops room to expand and have full contact with the beer. The best type of bags are the larger, fine mesh drawstring bags that you can tie to the neck of the carboy for ease of removal. Oxygen exposure is limited with a smart setup. Though, it is often recommended to flush the beer with C02 for further protection. Vinnie knows the science behind all of this and mentions it in an interview, which should be online. I wouldn't say he just does it because he liked the results or read a brief description about it in a book like most of us.

All-in-all, this is a very nit-picky way of dryhopping, but some people are fervent believers in it. I'm sure some people have different ways of going about dryhopping and their beer's aroma is still amazing. This is just one of many methods.

Just to let you know Jamil Z. in his book Brewing Classic Styles has a recipe in there called Hop Hammer which is a Pliny the Younger Clone, straight from Vinnie C.

I brewed it and did a side by side. Very little difference, mine was a bit more bitter, that could have something to do with age.

Hop Hammer is an amped-up Elder clone, it's not younger. It's basically identical to Elder, just slightly higher gravity. (9-9.5% abv)

As for the multiple dry hops, it just works. All the breweries that are making killer double and Triple IPAs use that method. I forgot who it was, but some brewery or university did some research and found that there was no additional benefit to adding more than ~ 0.5lbs/bbl of hops per dry hop addition. Any additional dry hops didn't add additional flavor or aroma.

They did find that subsequent additions add more flavor and aroma though. I'm not sure anyone understands the science behind it yet, they only know that it works. Firestone walker does 3-4 additions on their IPAs and DIPAs with super short contact times (3-4 days). Vinnie has moved to shorter more frequent dry hop schedules than they were doing in 2004-2005. Stone has moved to multiple dry hops on their new DIPAs (ruination 10th, Enjoy By, 16th ani, etc). Try it out yourself, you'll see.

jaw94087 said:

But, it seems that the aroma imparted should be a function of hop type, hop volume, time of exposure, and area of exposure.

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And it usually is. We typically rely on high total oil content and/or high myrcene American Pacific Northwest hops for dryhopping American IPAs. These include most (but not all) of the hops referenced here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/american-ipa-hops-myrcene-total-oil-content-chart-390356/

The amount we use is normally around 0.50 to 1.25 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer. The time of exposure ranges from 3-14 days on average, depending. Some choose to toss their dryhops in loose, others bag them.

jaw94087 said:

The only difference between multistage hopping and single stage hopping is the area of exposure is increased with multistage hopping.

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You can have the same level of exposure with both methods if you weigh the bag down. It also really depends on your individual system/methods.

Hey scottland, maybe I didn't see it above. What was the total cost approximately for your 5 gal PTY batch? I know my totals for PTE come out to between $50 - $53 depending on current grain/hop costs. I'm doing another batch of PTE this weekend!

bobbrews said:

The best type of bags are the larger, fine mesh drawstring bags that you can tie to the neck of the carboy for ease of removal.

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How would you recommend keeping the carboy sealed with a string coming out of the mouth? Do you just force the stopper back in around the string, or do you use a different airlock setup in this scenario? Would something fine like thread or fishing line work best?

smiller said:

How would you recommend keeping the carboy sealed with a string coming out of the mouth? Do you just force the stopper back in around the string, or do you use a different airlock setup in this scenario? Would something fine like thread or fishing line work best?

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I considered that question with respect to tying off a hop bag in a keg. Some suggest using unflavored dental floss, which is what I did and it seems to work fine. Using floss with a keg seems to be air tight. I’m not sure it matters that much if it is not 100% air tight given that I am purging with CO2 anyway. Although, it is nice that I can gently rock the keg to agitate the hops and nothing leaks out.

I just started dry hopping my first batch of PTY. The FG was 1.010 with an OG of 1.089. I used Scottland’s originally recommendation of mashing at 148. I must say, at this point it taste awesome! Perhaps just a smidgeon sweeter because I had to use carafoam malt rather than cara-pils. But, it is looking really good so far.

Good luck!

55chevydude said:

Hey scottland, maybe I didn't see it above. What was the total cost approximately for your 5 gal PTY batch? I know my totals for PTE come out to between $50 - $53 depending on current grain/hop costs. I'm doing another batch of PTE this weekend!

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I didn't add it up. I bought hop extract and my hops in bulk. That helps a lot.

8 hop shots: $7
15.5oz hops: ~ $15
Yeast: $7.50
Malt: ~ $17

Ya, $48 or so. Depending on your hop and malt prices that could vary a lot.

Also, when maximum recommended dry-hop rates are discussed above (e.g. 0.5 lbs/bbl), is this the maximum amount of total dry hops that should be used, or is this the maximum amount that should be used per hop addition?

smiller said:

Also, when maximum recommended dry-hop rates are discussed above (e.g. 0.5 lbs/bbl), is this the maximum amount of total dry hops that should be used, or is this the maximum amount that should be used per hop addition?

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Per addition. I've heard of a number of breweries that have tested is.

Alright, the fun is winding down. The final dry hop addition went in Friday, and today I'm going to crash the keg and fine with gelatin tomorrow. I've been pulling the dry-hopper out after each addition. Then cleaning and sanitizing it before putting it back in. To be honest, it's a been a pain in the ***. If I were to make this beer more often, I would probably just leave the hops in, and not remove them before the next addition. It would be much easier to just pop the lid on this dry hopper and simply dump more in.

I took a sample when I added the dry hops Friday, and it's tasting right on target. So as long as I don't F something up at this point, it should be fantastic.