Water Testing Question

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craq5

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I ordered a test kit package from Ward Labs to test my tap water. In the meantime I have found a store near me with a very fancy RO water system which I can purchase RO water for brewing. I have also read some who combine RO water with their tap water to make up their profile.


Should I send my tap water to Ward Labs for testing and with those results cut it with RO water when brewing. I assume it would be a waste of money to send the RO water in for testing? I am totally new to messing around with my brewing water.

In the end I hope to use the EZwatercalculator and use X Gallong of Tap + X Gallons of RO. Just want to make sure there is no reason to test the RO water as well.

OR

Should I just go all RO water and adjust with salts and just forget about TAP. Then would it make sense to send in the RO water fort testing?????
 
I ordered a test kit package from Ward Labs to test my tap water. In the meantime I have found a store near me with a very fancy RO water system which I can purchase RO water for brewing. I have also read some who combine RO water with their tap water to make up their profile.


Should I send my tap water to Ward Labs for testing and with those results cut it with RO water when brewing. I assume it would be a waste of money to send the RO water in for testing? I am totally new to messing around with my brewing water.

In the end I hope to use the EZwatercalculator and use X Gallong of Tap + X Gallons of RO. Just want to make sure there is no reason to test the RO water as well.

OR

Should I just go all RO water and adjust with salts and just forget about TAP. Then would it make sense to send in the RO water fort testing?????

Wait until you get the results of your tap water test until you start thinking about how you're going to alter it. If it's really high in calcium or bicarbonate for example, you may want dilute it with RO from the store. But that may not be necessary if you have soft water. It will also depend on the particular style you want to brew. I change the water profile for each style that I brew. The water used to make a Burton ale wouldn't work well at all for a Czech Pilsner. I also don't think it's necessary to test the RO water from the store, unless it's a shady store and you don't trust them.

I suggest reading the chapter on water in John Palmer's book before doing any water modification. If you don't have his latest copy, you can read the 1st edition online for free. Using the EZ water calc is a great tool, also. Once you understand the concepts and learn the tool, you'll start noticing a (good) difference in your beers. So, read up, look at your report when it comes, and ask questions if you have any, and we'll go from there.

TB
 
Thanks for the tip. So I finally got the report back from Ward Labs

Sodium 63 ppm
Potassium 3 ppm
Calcium 34 ppm
Magnesium 15 ppm
Total Hardness 148
Sulfate 25
Chloride 75
Carbonate 6
Bicarbonate 109
Total Alkalinity 99

Looking to brew a Milk Stout, 31.7 SRM. Tried entering parameters in EZwater but still confused. Don't see where I compare SRM with values entered OR Where I can enter in water profiles (London etc......) Any help would be great. Do I have the water profile to brew a stout?
 
Though who knows water probably affects color too, but it doesn't sound like the figure you're looking for.
 
Thanks for the tip. So I finally got the report back from Ward Labs

Sodium 63 ppm
Potassium 3 ppm
Calcium 34 ppm
Magnesium 15 ppm
Total Hardness 148
Sulfate 25
Chloride 75
Carbonate 6
Bicarbonate 109
Total Alkalinity 99

Looking to brew a Milk Stout, 31.7 SRM. Tried entering parameters in EZwater but still confused. Don't see where I compare SRM with values entered OR Where I can enter in water profiles (London etc......) Any help would be great. Do I have the water profile to brew a stout?

That is a pretty tough water to brew with. By the way, I see that you didn't change the SO4-S concentration to SO4. The actual sulfate concentration is 75 ppm. Unfortunately, there are several programs out there that don't have the capability to tell you that you made this mistake.

Both chloride and sulfate are a little high for some brews, so dilution may be something to consider. The alkalinity will probably need some neutralization for some brews, but its not out of this world. Overall, this is a water that can be used as long as you understand the changes needed for your brews. I suggest reading the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website.

The recommendation to use the Palmer recommendations for water is not a good one. The 'beer color' based approach to brewing water adjustments was long ago found to be useless. The Palmer recommendations are particularly way off when brewing darker styles.
 
Do I have the water profile to brew a stout?

Yes, and many other beers too. For light (in body - not color), dry stout (Irish stout) your mash pH might be a tad high but probably acceptable. As you add more dark malts mash pH will decline and may get to the point where it goes too low. My experience with stouts like that is that it's easier to put charcoal briquettes in the blender with some water. What I am getting at is that as long as you are reasonable with the black stuff and go easy on the high color caramel malts you will probably be OK. But I'll never to pass on the opportunity to suggest that you ought to obtain a pH meter and learn how to use it.
 
The recommendation to use the Palmer recommendations for water is not a good one. The 'beer color' based approach to brewing water adjustments was long ago found to be useless. The Palmer recommendations are particularly way off when brewing darker styles.

I believe you're referring to Palmer's old water calc spreadsheet. The new water spreadsheet is more accurate and applicable. Also, in his new editions, Palmer corrects many mistakes made in previous editions.
 
If I am starting with "rough" water then am I better off just starting with RO and adding additions. Can any of the calculators go off just using 100% RO water? I dont mind diluting my tap with RO and the extra cost to pick up a few gallons.

Appreciate the advice.
 
It doesn't matter what your water is like. It is always easier to use RO water (unless you are among the fortunate few that have tap water that is practically RO water). You start with a 'clean sheet of paper' each time you brew and can adjust to anything you like that is physically realizable (I mention that because there are many published profiles abroad that are not physically realizable). Probably the biggest advantage is that you are immune to changes in your tap water with the seasons, as the supplier switches between wells, buys from an adjacent county etc.

The only problem I have with using RO water is that you won't learn as much about brewing water treatment as you would if you forced yourself to make do with the water you have.
 
So with RO water do what parameters do I enter in the EZwater spreadsheet? Sorry if this is a dumb question.
 
The ion levels for RO water can be variable based on the membrane, its age, and the ionic content of the feed water. But in most cases, the RO ionic concentrations are very low and typically under 10 ppm. The RO profile in Bru'n Water shows the following:

Ca 1 ppm
Mg 0 ppm
Na 8 ppm
SO4 1 ppm
Cl 4 ppm
HCO3 16 ppm

Assuming zero for any of the ions would not be that far off.
 
The 'beer color' based approach to brewing water adjustments was long ago found to be useless.

I revisited the color based approach to mash pH prediction and it is fairly good when done correctly. The sticking point is getting the user to understand the %roasted parameter. I admit that this is a bit awkward.


Kai
 
So with RO water do what parameters do I enter in the EZwater spreadsheet? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Not at all. Zero will do and is easy to remember. My experience with these systems used for brewing is that they go on for ever before the membrane begins to degrade. When I upgraded I gave away a system that I had been using for over 10 years that still performed well but you may wish to check up on the performance of your system from time to time with an inexpensive 'TDS' (in quotes because they measure conductivity, not TDS, though they read in TDS) tester. For example my system typically reads 3 ppm out and 160 in meaning the average rejection is about 98%. This system is about 3 years old though, because it is used mostly for brewing it only has about 200 hours on it. In the columns below I've taken your analysis and applied 90% and 95% rejection to the concentrations.

0% Rejection-------> 90% - 95%
Sodium 63 ppm ---> 6.3 - 3.1
Potassium 3 ppm ----> .3 - .15
Calcium 34 ppm ----> 3.4 - 1.7
Magnesium 15 ppm ---> 1.5 - .75
Total Hardness 148 ---> 7.4 - 3.7
Sulfate 75 --------------> 7.5 - 3.8
Chloride 75 -------------> 7.5 - 3.8
Carbonate 6
Bicarbonate 109
Total Alkalinity 99 ------> 10 - 5

A new system is going to reject more like 98% so the numbers show that even with a conservative assumption of 95% treated water is essentially mineral free in your case.

Something to consider both WRT membrane life and rejection is the fact that your water is super saturated WRT calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate (you don't say what your pH is but I'm guessing it's about 9) which will precipitate on the membrane of your filter shortening its useful life. To avoid this RO units are fed with softened water (or run at very low recovery but in your case no level of recovery will save you). Using a softener replaces magnesium and calcium with sodium with the result that your water softened would contain an additional 67 mg/L sodium which, with the 63 mg/L already in the water would total 130. At 90% rejection you would have 13 mg/L sodium and at 95% half this (6.5). But membrane manufacturers are aware that RO systems are often used this way and strive for good sodium rejection. Often you will see the spec sheets listing sodium rejection at about 99%.
 
I revisited the color based approach to mash pH prediction and it is fairly good when done correctly. The sticking point is getting the user to understand the %roasted parameter. I admit that this is a bit awkward.


Kai

Ah yes! I see your approach now. As we know, all your data on malt acidity does show a fairly linear acidity vs. malt color. I note that both base and crystal malts are quite similar in the slope of their acidity vs malt relationships, almost identical. But it is the roast that does not conform to that with its relatively constant acidity that has little variation with color.

Of course, what I was speaking of was the Palmer SRM vs RA relationship.
 
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