late extract addition and full boils?

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cpz28

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I've heard that the late extract addition isn't recommended for full boils. Is there a good reason? I ask because prior to doing full boils I always used it for taste/ color. Now that I am doing full boils I would like to continue to use it in order to produce lighter colored beer. Is there any reason I shouldn' t do it? I know it probably messes with the hop utilization a bit.
 
It will mess with hop utilization quite a lot actaully. The reason for late additions is to...

1. Aid in poor hop utilization in partial boils.
2. Keep the color from darkening too much do too the greater concentrarion of sugars.

With a full boil, the wort won't darken quite as much, and your hop utilization is normal. If you do a late extract, you would either end up with an extremelly bitter beer (much more so than intended) or a beer lacking in any hop character at all, depending on how you fixed the hop scheduling.
 
Seconded.
The only way you can match up your hop additions with recipes is to have malt in with the hops. You could try adding just half the malt to try keep the colour lighter and compare that to a full malt boil as far as hop flavour, aroma and bitterness.
Experiment and go with your own opinions and taste buds.
But if you are folowing someone elses recipe and they did a full boil and you didn't, you won't be drinking the same beer they made, it might be too bitter or not enough flavour.
 
I would think late extract addition with a full boil would be a way to save on hops. Cut back your bittering hops by 10% and see how you like it. 10% doesn't seem like much, but it adds up.

EDIT: I meant 10% for every 5 lbs. DME. This was just a rough estimate. YMMV.
 
I just want to avoid that nasty carmely extract flavor. I fear it like the plague, since I neglected to mention that.
 
There's no reason you can't do late extract addition with a full boil. As others have mentioned, you'll have to adjust your hopping schedule, but you have to do that with late-addition partial boils, too. IIRC, at least one of the common brewing programs will actually do this for you.

As far as the "nasty carmely extract flavor"...are you using LME or DME? Might be the LME "twang" you're tasting?
 
Expand upon the LME "twang". This is the first I have heard of this. I brew exclusively ales, due to temperature constraints, and prefer them on the darker side. I partial mash, and use LME way more than DME, and always partil boil. Is this a flavor preference, or does my process just avoid this?
 
I only use DME, I loathe LME. Prior to doing full boils I did a DIPA using 8 lbs of DME. I neglected to do the late extract addition and it has this carmelized type of flavor (60 min boil). Ever since when doing partial boils and using the late extract addition I never experienced the flavor again, aswell as produced some extremely light colored beer (that would have easily brought through that carmel taste do to them being lower hopped lighter beers like pale ale and wits). In my experience LME produced a distinct twang, while DME did not, it produces a carmel flavor when all the dme was boiled for 60 min in a partial boil. If you guys are telling me that if I do a full volume boil and have all the DME in there the whole time and it won't produce the carmel flavor, then amen. I have a few great recipes that have only been done as partail boil late extract additions that I would now like to do as full boils. If I were to spend all that money, not do the late extract addition and have the carmelized flavor i'd be sad. So having all that extra water in the boil causes the beer to be lighter without the late extract addition as well as voids the scorched/carmel flavor? I sincerly want to know as many of you guys are more knowledgeable/seasoned brewers than myself. Thanks again in advance for all the feedback guys, I've learned so much on this forum.
 
For my taste it is more of a harshness that I don't think should be there, late extract additions helped a bit but I'm not doing my first two AG batches to see if what I picture as reality actually is.
And on topic, I would think the only issue would be the hops absorption, just cut it back and you may be able to make some killer blonde ales, etc. Please let us know how it comes out.
 
I have a related question...

I usually do the biggest boil I can with my extract/PM recipes which is about 4 gallons. I also do late extract additions with about 25% going in right away and the rest going in with 15 minutes remaining. After this conversation, I'm now thinking I should put more extract in since I'm doing such a big boil (but not full). Would 50% right away and 50% at the end be about right? I'm usually PM'ing so I got those fermentables in there too.

I guess my question is, should the amount of extract added early be the same percentages as the amount of water added early? For instance, if I'm doing 4 gallons out of a 6 gallon or so full boil, should I add 2/3 of the extract early and 1/3 late?
 
I have a related question...

I usually do the biggest boil I can with my extract/PM recipes which is about 4 gallons. I also do late extract additions with about 25% going in right away and the rest going in with 15 minutes remaining. After this conversation, I'm now thinking I should put more extract in since I'm doing such a big boil (but not full). Would 50% right away and 50% at the end be about right? I'm usually PM'ing so I got those fermentables in there too.

I guess my question is, should the amount of extract added early be the same percentages as the amount of water added early? For instance, if I'm doing 4 gallons out of a 6 gallon or so full boil, should I add 2/3 of the extract early and 1/3 late?
Good question.

I've mentioned where I got my information before. In Papazian's TCJOHB he has a Hop Utilization Chart. In it it says that you get the max hop bitterness extraction at 60 mins in a 1 gal boil with 1 lb of malt. I use only 3 AAs for my 6 lbs of malt in a Hefe Weizen. For Pale Ales I go up to about 4.8AAs I'm not a hop head and prefer my brews well balanced with only a hint of bitterness. I've never dry hopped either.

From that I do my small boils atarting at 1.5 gals (extra .5 expected loss due to evaporation) and I boil for 45 mins.

If I use Irish Moss I adjust the recipe and add it at 30 mins, still technically 15 minis form the end of (actual) boil. At 45 mins I remove the pot form the flame and add the remaining malts and steep for 15 mins.

I place 4 gals of filtered tap water into the deep freezer for 4-5 hours prior to brewing. I place 2 gal in the primary before pouring the hot wort into it.
I sparge the hops out using a nylon net attached to my primary bucket.

It's not right or wrong, but this process works well for me.

I guess the answer you're looking for is 1 lb of malt per gal of water. ;)

If your wort has a high malt density then the hop bitterness extraction will be underutilized.
 
It will mess with hop utilization quite a lot actually. The reason for late additions is to...

1. Aid in poor hop utilization in partial boils.
2. Keep the color from darkening too much do too the greater concentration of sugars.

With a full boil, the wort won't darken quite as much, and your hop utilization is normal. If you do a late extract, you would either end up with an extremlly bitter beer (much more so than intended) or a beer lacking in any hop character at all, depending on how you fixed the hop scheduling.

Did a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale a couple days ago and tried to add half the LME at the beginning and half during the last ten minutes thinking it would help with the color. It came out pretty bitter in the end, but my evaporation was more than I thought so I ended up adding another gallon of water in the end to get five gallons. Hopefully it will tame the bitterness.
 
Did a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale a couple days ago and tried to add half the LME at the beginning and half during the last ten minutes thinking it would help with the color. It came out pretty bitter in the end, but my evaporation was more than I thought so I ended up adding another gallon of water in the end to get five gallons. Hopefully it will tame the bitterness.
I've done that also. Taken a reading and the OG was higher than expected so I added another 1/2 gal of top off water to bring it within range. The sugar content is there as well as the hop bitterness. The only possible drawback I can see is it may seem watered down come bottling time. When that happens you can always add Malto Dextrine in with the priming sugar. Works for me. ;)
 
I've done that also. Taken a reading and the OG was higher than expected so I added another 1/2 gal of top off water to bring it within range. The sugar content is there as well as the hop bitterness. The only possible drawback I can see is it may seem watered down come bottling time. When that happens you can always add Malto Dextrine in with the priming sugar. Works for me. ;)


Thanks for the tip! Sorry to hijack the thread.
 
back from the dead-

How does late late extract mess with hop utilization? I'm formulating a bock PM, and I was going to add only 1 lb of the 6lb of DME at the beginning (this would be added to about a 1.020 partial mash wort) and the other 5 at 15 min.

Reason? BeerSmith says I can cut my bittering hops by about 30%. But, will that produce any off hop flavors boiling in such a weak wort?

Full wort boil, btw...6 gallon boil. Thanks!
 
back from the dead-

How does late late extract mess with hop utilization? I'm formulating a bock PM, and I was going to add only 1 lb of the 6lb of DME at the beginning (this would be added to about a 1.020 partial mash wort) and the other 5 at 15 min.

Reason? BeerSmith says I can cut my bittering hops by about 30%. But, will that produce any off hop flavors boiling in such a weak wort?

Full wort boil, btw...6 gallon boil. Thanks!

You'll get increased hops utlization. If you use Beersmith, that will give you the correct estimated IBUs, since you can click "late extract addition" in Beersmith. That estimate is pretty close, in my opinion.

You won't get any off flavors, only more bittering.
 
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