How do you rig a larger blow off tube when fermenting in a bucket with a lid like the poster's? Remove the grommet and use a tube just slightly larger?
Why Not to Pitch On Your Yeast Cake
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How do you rig a larger blow off tube when fermenting in a bucket with a lid like the poster's? Remove the grommet and use a tube just slightly larger?
Bob, just gave your OP a shot and pitched a measured slurry of Danstar Windsor... I know it's dry yeast and I could have pitched a fresh packet, but it's what I had available and what was needed for the Caribou Slobber kit.
Also, I noticed that to get numbers similiar to yours in the OP, I set the sliders on mr. Malty's pitching Calc to worst case scenarios - yeast concentration to #1 thin slurry, and non yeast percentage to 25% which then sets the calc to about your numbers. I did the same setting for my 1.052 OG beer and pitched 250 ml of slurry. Appropriate, or too much yeast?
Anyway, slurry was pitched after 60 seconds of pure o2, so I'm hoping for a vigorous ferment at a temp controlled 64-65.
Also, I noticed that to get numbers similiar to yours in the OP, I set the sliders on mr. Malty's pitching Calc to worst case scenarios - yeast concentration to #1 thin slurry, and non yeast percentage to 25% which then sets the calc to about your numbers. I did the same setting for my 1.052 OG beer and pitched 250 ml of slurry. Appropriate, or too much yeast?
Anyway, slurry was pitched after 60 seconds of pure o2, so I'm hoping for a vigorous ferment at a temp controlled 64-65.
I'm a believer too. I pitched 4 ounces (volume) of slurry from a starter into 5.25 gallons of 1.054 wort and had vigorous airlock activity in 8 hours. I had to replace the airlock with a blowoff tube the following day.
I've also pitched 8 ounces from a cake into 5.25 gallons of 1.047 wort, and while the fermentation wasn't as robust, the resulting beer came out great.
I've also pitched 8 ounces from a cake into 5.25 gallons of 1.047 wort, and while the fermentation wasn't as robust, the resulting beer came out great.
jwalker1140
Well-Known Member
Yesterday I pitched a 3-day-old 8 oz jar of slurry into 5 gallons of a 1.052 blue moon clone. It's chugging away nicely.
The thread is one of my top 5 favorites. Thanks, Bob!
The thread is one of my top 5 favorites. Thanks, Bob!
Biggest issue with pitching onto a yeast cake is you dont really get a chance to taste the beer and make sure the yeast isnt making poor beer. If you can store the yeast for a week and make sure it did its job right without off flavors I would be a whole lot more comfortable.
I only say this because I was recently burned by some mutated yeast...
I only say this because I was recently burned by some mutated yeast...
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
foltster said:
......Jesus man.....they must have REALLY effing mutated to not only exit the fermenter and mutiny, but to make FIRE!
I got 19 batches out of one purchased yeast dose. God knows how the old germans made beer without white labs.
What off flavors occurred? Mutated fire breathing yeast would be the last theory I Would come up with.......
milldoggy
Well-Known Member
cheezydemon3 said:
I would guess it is more of a sanitation issue than bad yeast. Pitching on a yeast cake seems to increase the number of ways other things can get in, to me at least. I do it every once in a while, but prefer washing. I have been using the same wyeast bel/can private collection yeast for 3 years now. On my 6th washing. I do say the flavor has changed, but so has my equipment and experiance, so I cant 100% say it is mutated yeast.
I'm not going to say you can't make good beer by pitching on top of a yeast cake. I've certainly heard many a brewer talk positively about it and haven't tried it myself. But the possible negatives are many and should be recognized:
- Yeast over-pitching
- Old fermentation byproducts into the new beer
- Old garbage that falls to the bottom, such as proteins, cold/hot break, hop particles, etc. into the new beer
- Flavors from the previous batch into the new beer
- Questionable sanitation of the fermenter
- Increased ratio of bacteria and wild yeasts to brewer's yeast
- Dead yeast
- Weak/unhealthy yeast
These things do have an effect on flavor and one has to wonder if the beer could've been better by not reusing the yeast cake.
It seems to me the risks are much higher than the possible payoff vs. the $7 for a new yeast pack, even less if you are into dry yeast.
For the record, I do reuse yeast, but harvest it from the batch and get it going with a yeast starter to have a good, healthy pitch.
The topic of yeast reuse is well covered in the book "Yeast", by Chris White (of White Labs) and Jamil Zainasheff, particularly pages 161-165, with pitching onto a cake discussed on page 164. The bottom line? Not recommended.
As far as the way the "old Germans" used to do it, I keep hearing that from brewers. Not to be too critical, but no one knows what that beer really tasted like, so it's questionable as to how valid it is to offer it as proof of anything other than as a way to reuse. My guess is that beer tasted like crap, but my guess is just as good any one else's.
- Yeast over-pitching
- Old fermentation byproducts into the new beer
- Old garbage that falls to the bottom, such as proteins, cold/hot break, hop particles, etc. into the new beer
- Flavors from the previous batch into the new beer
- Questionable sanitation of the fermenter
- Increased ratio of bacteria and wild yeasts to brewer's yeast
- Dead yeast
- Weak/unhealthy yeast
These things do have an effect on flavor and one has to wonder if the beer could've been better by not reusing the yeast cake.
It seems to me the risks are much higher than the possible payoff vs. the $7 for a new yeast pack, even less if you are into dry yeast.
For the record, I do reuse yeast, but harvest it from the batch and get it going with a yeast starter to have a good, healthy pitch.
The topic of yeast reuse is well covered in the book "Yeast", by Chris White (of White Labs) and Jamil Zainasheff, particularly pages 161-165, with pitching onto a cake discussed on page 164. The bottom line? Not recommended.
As far as the way the "old Germans" used to do it, I keep hearing that from brewers. Not to be too critical, but no one knows what that beer really tasted like, so it's questionable as to how valid it is to offer it as proof of anything other than as a way to reuse. My guess is that beer tasted like crap, but my guess is just as good any one else's.
Sanitation COULD have been the issue, sure. The flavors however made my IPA taste a whole lot like a belgian...which infection causes that again?
Sorry for the dumb question, but I have the White House honey porter kit from Northern Brewer fermenting now. It uses Wyeast 1056 American Ale yeast. I made a starter based on what the Mr. Malty site said. I have the ingredients for the Northern Brewer Double IPA, which also uses the same yeast. I'd like to reuse the correct amount of yeast cake from the honey porter in the DIPA, but the DIPA says to use a yeast starter. If I'm reusing the yeast cake, isn't the original beer basically a starter?
Also, is there any issues reusing the yeast cake from a honey porter into a DIPA? Seems weird to go from a darker beer to a lighter beer, but I know it's only a small portion of the new batch.
And if I followed everything correctly in this thread, I'm calculating that I will need ~382 ml of slurry (assuming 1 billion yeast cells per 1 ml harvested slurry; using 5 gallons and an SG of 1.083). Is that correct?
Thanks all for the great information in this thread
Also, is there any issues reusing the yeast cake from a honey porter into a DIPA? Seems weird to go from a darker beer to a lighter beer, but I know it's only a small portion of the new batch.
And if I followed everything correctly in this thread, I'm calculating that I will need ~382 ml of slurry (assuming 1 billion yeast cells per 1 ml harvested slurry; using 5 gallons and an SG of 1.083). Is that correct?
Thanks all for the great information in this thread
Sorry for the dumb question, but I have the White House honey porter kit from Northern Brewer fermenting now. It uses Wyeast 1056 American Ale yeast. I made a starter based on what the Mr. Malty site said. I have the ingredients for the Northern Brewer Double IPA, which also uses the same yeast. I'd like to reuse the correct amount of yeast cake from the honey porter in the DIPA, but the DIPA says to use a yeast starter. If I'm reusing the yeast cake, isn't the original beer basically a starter?
Also, is there any issues reusing the yeast cake from a honey porter into a DIPA? Seems weird to go from a darker beer to a lighter beer, but I know it's only a small portion of the new batch.
And if I followed everything correctly in this thread, I'm calculating that I will need ~382 ml of slurry (assuming 1 billion yeast cells per 1 ml harvested slurry; using 5 gallons and an SG of 1.083). Is that correct?
Thanks all for the great information in this thread
You can use the slurry as calculated and that would work fine. Or, you can rinse the yeast and use also. You'll probably have enough yeast in the yeast cake to rinse and save a few jars for in the future, and also to use for the next batch.
Thanks for the info.
So any issue with using the yeast cake from a porter into a DIPA?
So any issue with using the yeast cake from a porter into a DIPA?
milldoggy
Well-Known Member
mtnagel said:
Should be fine, but rinsing it would remove any color, trub, etc
Shouldn't be any issue. Keep in mind, you don't want to reuse the yeast TOO many times because they can go through mutations. But the DIPA should have a higher OG than the porter, would would basically make the porter a giant yeast starter. You should be good to go!
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
I am lucky enough to have clean tap water.
I hold my bucket over the sink and spray out 1/2 the yeast cake for a big beer, or 1/4 for a normal brew. I take a paper towel soaked in no-rinse and wipe over the krausen residue and lip of the bucket. Pitch cooled wort on the remaining yeast.
I hold my bucket over the sink and spray out 1/2 the yeast cake for a big beer, or 1/4 for a normal brew. I take a paper towel soaked in no-rinse and wipe over the krausen residue and lip of the bucket. Pitch cooled wort on the remaining yeast.
I've only ever reused yeast once.
Is it okay to reuse the yeast from the Honey Ale (OG 1.062) in a milk stout (OG 1.051)? The yeast used in both kits is the exact same. Or should you only go higher in OG for the batch with the reused yeast?
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
I re-used the same danstar 18 batches.
Not sure what a mutation would taste like, but all good beer.
You should be fine. That gravity isn't really huge. Once you start getting into 1.070 or 1.080 or bigger, yeast can get a little stressed and start causing off flavors after a while.
When I brew, and know i'm going to use the same yeast 2/3/4/5 times in a row i tend to start with the lower OG batches first, and work my way up.
1st - amber ale
2nd - pale ale
3rd - milk stout
4th - IPA
5th - imperial porter
6th - IIPA or RIS
the yeast starts in a nice easy environment to grow, get healthy and develop. Then as your OG increases you'll just have that many more healthy yeasties devour the sugar in those hefty OG worts
I see. That requires a lot of planning 
So you just don't want to reuse the yeast from a really big beer. Like > 1.070? Would you reuse that?
So you just don't want to reuse the yeast from a really big beer. Like > 1.070? Would you reuse that?
This. I went about 10 generations on US-05. I think it got mildly infected near the end, but it didn't make bad beer, ever.
Oh, I wasn't saying it wont work, i'm just saying that it can yield better results. Ever cultured yeast from the bottom of a bottle before? its always recommended to get yeast from the bottom of a bottle where ABV is lower...it doesn't stress the yeast as much. Same with pitching onto a cake.
I've reused yeast from my RIS before..but I was only, say, 3 generations into brewing. 1.100 is a tough environment for those little yeasties...which is why I made a smaller beer next. no problems...its just good practice, is all
as long as your beer tastes good you're in business
I've reused yeast from my RIS before..but I was only, say, 3 generations into brewing. 1.100 is a tough environment for those little yeasties...which is why I made a smaller beer next. no problems...its just good practice, is all
as long as your beer tastes good you're in business
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
I tested the limits...maybe.....I had one 4 month stretch when I wasn't brewing, between the 7th and 8th usage of a cake, as I recall.
The yeast cake was dried and cracked, but not discolored at all.
I didn't remove any. It had been sealed up tight (well moisture got out somehow) but I figured that at the accepted mortality rate, over 765% of the yeast was dead (complete BS)....so I just dumped in my cooled wort. It took right off.
The yeast cake was dried and cracked, but not discolored at all.
I didn't remove any. It had been sealed up tight (well moisture got out somehow) but I figured that at the accepted mortality rate, over 765% of the yeast was dead (complete BS)....so I just dumped in my cooled wort. It took right off.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
jwalker1140
Well-Known Member
First off, a quick thanks to Bob. I've made some of my best ales following the information in his original post.
I do have a question regarding lagers though. I want to brew a helles and then pitch that yeast to a marzen. I have a temp control fridge for fermentation but I bottle condition. My plan is to ferment the helles for 1-2 weeks and lager for 4-6 weeks, all in the primary, and then bottle. When I bottle, I would collect ~2 cups of slurry and pitch it to my marzen within the next day or so. Is 6-8 weeks total in the primary too long for the yeast?
I do have a question regarding lagers though. I want to brew a helles and then pitch that yeast to a marzen. I have a temp control fridge for fermentation but I bottle condition. My plan is to ferment the helles for 1-2 weeks and lager for 4-6 weeks, all in the primary, and then bottle. When I bottle, I would collect ~2 cups of slurry and pitch it to my marzen within the next day or so. Is 6-8 weeks total in the primary too long for the yeast?
milldoggy
Well-Known Member
jwalker1140 said:
Naa, 8 weeks is fine, some yeast may die, but not enough to worry about. Just pich 2 and a 1/4 cups if you are worried.
jwalker1140
Well-Known Member
Excellent news. Thanks much!
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
I would go more like 3-4 cups.
Some may be dead
and lagers take more yeast anyways.sounds like an excellent plan!
*Edit- Hell, sounds like a candidate for just pitching on the cake. Whenever that is justifiable, it is SO convenient*
I see. That requires a lot of planning
So you just don't want to reuse the yeast from a really big beer. Like > 1.070? Would you reuse that?
If the 1.070 beer seemed to have a good fermentation, I'd take a chance on reusing it....probably. Depends on if I'm feeling lucky!
TrubHead
Well-Known Member
Quite interesting reading this thread although I did skip the middle pages of "discussion". Think I'll stick with washing the yeast vs pitching wort onto yeast cake.
Sampled another home brewer's beer a while back and told him it tasted a little soapy. Could pitching onto trub/yeast cake cause this?
Sampled another home brewer's beer a while back and told him it tasted a little soapy. Could pitching onto trub/yeast cake cause this?
Darwin18
Well-Known Member
More likely attributed to his cleaning/sanitizing methods.
Brewskii
Well-Known Member
So if you pitch a copious amount of yeast (either from a cake or starter), should you then be causing an over pitch scenario by oxigenating that wort at pitch?
I gather the esters are produced in this lag phase during o2 take-up....- is that right?
I gather the esters are produced in this lag phase during o2 take-up....- is that right?
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is endorsing pitching on the whole cake (unless it is bred specifically for a HUGE beer or big lager). Overpitching can be a problem.
I Use sanitary water to rins all but about 2 cups of the yeast cake out of the fermenter. Wipe the lip and inside of fermenter with NO RINSE soaked paper towel.
Dump chiled wort on remaining yeast.
Rinse and repeat!
I Use sanitary water to rins all but about 2 cups of the yeast cake out of the fermenter. Wipe the lip and inside of fermenter with NO RINSE soaked paper towel.
Dump chiled wort on remaining yeast.
Rinse and repeat!
I recently brewed my first all grain (a Rye/Biscuit Ale) using a batch sparge. After collecting my boiling amount I was intrigued by the still somewhat sugary grains left in my Mash Tun. I decided to do an experiment and collected a 1 gallon cold sparge, boiled for about 45 minutes with a fraction of the hops from my recipe, and pitched with about a half packet of US-05 in a 1 gallon carboy. I got a pretty vigorous fermentation and I'm excited to try my "small beer," but this thread has me thinking that I may be able to use the yeast cake from the 1 gallon batch to ferment a new 5 gallon batch. The ratio may be not quite right, but it's more than pitching just 1 vial of liquid yeast.
Any thoughts?
Any thoughts?
Sure....
Rinse the yeast cake.... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-revisited-318684/
Actually, that 1 gallon cake ought to be pretty darn close for a 5 gallon batch. You're much better off maybe slightly over-pitching with that vs. using one vial of liquid yeast with no starter (which is a significant under-pitch)
Unless the 1 gallon batch has a bunch of trub/hops, I'd harvest it into a sanitized jar and pitch the whole thing straight onto the 5 gallon batch. If you're going to wait any more than a few days before use, rinse it.
jwalker1140
Well-Known Member
grndslm said:
Or if you intend to repitch the yeast within a week or two, just follow the technique outlined by the OP and save yourself some trouble.
Where's the trouble in rinsing??
Boiling is trouble???
Boil one pot of water with your jar(s) for 5 minutes. Take the bottles out with tongs, screw on lids, put in freezer. Throw that water into the carboy, bucket, or whatever other fermenter you've got.... swirl around, set it at angle so that the trub falls into a corner and will stay there when you get ready to pour the CLEAN yeast out. Leave it for 30 minutes, then pour the liquid into the jars.
We're talking an hour and a half to separate from the trub (hops, dead yeast, etc.). And you can pitch one of those jars immediately if you'd like. No need for the top liquid to become totally clear.
I think what the OP tries to accomplish is estimating how much yeast there is WITHIN the trub. But he thinks calculating yeast count is of the utmost importance???
ipe:Uhh... yea.... let's calculate our good yeast without separating from the dead yeast, hops, and other trash.
Good one.
