Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

Since_Uuz_Up said:

Your starter sounds about right, (stirplate?). Do you use Servomyces?

For all intents stepped decoction mashing should not increase BE but it does...it does in our mashes also. Let us know how the ferm goes.

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I did not use Servomyces but I made the starter in three steps over a week so it should be very healthy. I don't have a stir plate but I swirled it every chance I got. I calculated the starter size using mrmalty based on a 3.3 gallon batch and since I ended up with 4 gallons the starter might be a little small.

Fermentation looks good so far. I'm not adding any external heat although I insulated the fermenter. Temperature was up to 74 this morning, about 36 hours after pitching. Is it rising too fast?

gio said:

I did not use Servomyces but I made the starter in three steps over a week so it should be very healthy. I don't have a stir plate but I swirled it every chance I got. I calculated the starter size using mrmalty based on a 3.3 gallon batch and since I ended up with 4 gallons the starter might be a little small.

Fermentation looks good so far. I'm not adding any external heat although I insulated the fermenter. Temperature was up to 74 this morning, about 36 hours after pitching. Is it rising too fast?

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I don't think so but I would take saq's advice and get the temp up to 82-83 (even artificially if needed) and hold it there for 5-7 days.

Wow, this is the most vigorous fermentation I've had yet. I can hear this upstairs in my house. Fun!!!

1" Krausen 10 hrs after pitching.
Temp up to 78.6 24 hrs later and blowing out the blowoff tube.

One thing I didn't count on, my brew strip thermometer only reads up to 78. I had to pull out the kid's laser thermometer thingy to take temps. Wrapped a junky towel around the carboy. Hoping the temp gets higher by tomorrow...

Since_Uuz_Up said:

I don't think so but I would take saq's advice and get the temp up to 82-83 (even artificially if needed) and hold it there for 5-7 days.

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My temp is going way up too. This evening I checked it (not quite 48 hours since pitching) and the temp was 78-80. I got a little worried that it was getting too hot, too quickly as I feared fusel alcohols from such high temps so early in the fermentation. I removed the sleeping bag I had wrapped around the fermenter and a few hours later the temp had dropped to 76. I think I'm going to replace the blanket tonight though and let it go above 80. If its not above 80 tomorrow night, I might start adding heat to it.

gio said:

My temp is going way up too. This evening I checked it (not quite 48 hours since pitching) and the temp was 78-80. I got a little worried that it was getting too hot, too quickly as I feared fusel alcohols from such high temps so early in the fermentation.

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We had the same worry a few times. Sounds like you're right on track to me though. Once you hit 1.020 you'll start to get some real slow-down on the gravity drop, (and this is where I differ from this thread's recipe), and it could take 4-5 weeks in secondary to get there. In my opinion this is where you start to get some amazing flavors in this brew. Swirl it heat it, baby it, read it a bedtime story, and it will pay off

Since_Uuz_Up said:

We had the same worry a few times. Sounds like you're right on track to me though. Once you hit 1.020 you'll start to get some real slow-down on the gravity drop, (and this is where I differ from this thread's recipe), and it could take 4-5 weeks in secondary to get there. In my opinion this is where you start to get some amazing flavors in this brew. Swirl it heat it, baby it, read it a bedtime story, and it will pay off

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Took the first gravity reading today, 7 days after pitching. It was at 1.018 so it's exactly where it should be. I've been holding it at 81 the past few days. I'll continue to hold it there a few more days, then I'll let it drop to 65, and transfer to secondary next weekend to age it at 50 for another 6 weeks or so.

I tasted the wort and wow, it's amazing. Very strong fruity esters and little to no fusel alcohols. It had a very warm alcoholic taste though. I suppose this is to be expected though as it's about 10% ABV, very young, and not yet carbonated. I'm not sure if it's the yeast, the warm fermentation temps or the D2 (none of which I've used before) but this beer promises to be great so far.

gio said:

Took the first gravity reading today, 7 days after pitching. It was at 1.018 so it's exactly where it should be. I've been holding it at 81 the past few days. I'll continue to hold it there a few more days, then I'll let it drop to 65, and transfer to secondary next weekend to age it at 50 for another 6 weeks or so.

I tasted the wort and wow, it's amazing. Very strong fruity esters and little to no fusel alcohols. It had a very warm alcoholic taste though. I suppose this is to be expected though as it's about 10% ABV, very young, and not yet carbonated. I'm not sure if it's the yeast, the warm fermentation temps or the D2 (none of which I've used before) but this beer promises to be great so far.

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Sounds like your on the winning track! The only thing I dislike about this recipe is having had a well made batch and running out of it The traditional method on this ale is the best recipe we've brewed. One quick comment. Compared to an authentic Wesvleteren 12 this recipe is a little strong on the Pale malt side. I'm going to ease up on the Pale on the next few batches.

Saq is probably right regarding "stressing" the Westamalle yeast. You get very dense, rich flavors by carefully and slightly under-pitching and then nurturing this fermentation along.

Since_Uuz_Up said:

Sounds like your on the winning track! The only thing I dislike about this recipe is having had a well made batch and running out of it The traditional method on this ale is the best recipe we've brewed. One quick comment. Compared to an authentic Wesvleteren 12 this recipe is a little strong on the Pale malt side. I'm going to ease up on the Pale on the next few batches.

Saq is probably right regarding "stressing" the Westamalle yeast. You get very dense, rich flavors by carefully and slightly under-pitching and then nurturing this fermentation along.

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I've never actually had a real Westvleteren 12. My brother has a couple of bottles. Maybe I'll be able to convince him to open one and compare when this beer is done.

If you ease up on the pale, will you replace it with more pilsner or something else?

I can't wait till I get a microscope (in April) so I can count yeast cells and know for sure how much yeast I'm pitching. I wish there was an easy way to measure wort aeration too.

Any news on the candi syrup you've working on? It's becoming harder and harder to find D2.

gio said:

If you ease up on the pale, will you replace it with more pilsner or something else?

I can't wait till I get a microscope (in April) so I can count yeast cells and know for sure how much yeast I'm pitching. I wish there was an easy way to measure wort aeration too.

Any news on the candi syrup you've working on? It's becoming harder and harder to find D2.

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Yes, we use only Belgian Pils and Pale. I prefer Dingemann's a little better than Castle. Right now I have two batches racked with 12lbs Pils and 4 lbs Pale and 14 lbs Pils and 2 lbs Pale.

Also yes, we've applied for a patent on the process here in the US but while it's pending we intend to sell this Fall. Our website is being modeled now and we have larger equipment on the way. Our capacity will be only 200-300 gallons per month to start, (1600 one lb units), however, there will be no shortages as we can double capacity without additional equipment if needed. We will start with 2 Belgian styles (D90 and D180) with 2 American styles of brewing syrup as well. Through all of this our biggest setback has been getting a reliable source for bulk organic sugar. We're still negotiating that part.

Are you using unrefined sugar? If you are using refined granulated white sugar it seems kind of silly to go for organic if its something in the range of 99%+ pure minimum.

hey guys,
what do you think if age this beer in oak barrel? Just got one as a present

As to the oak barrel guy- it is not quite the style of the brew, but if you want to experiment, go for it.


2nd attempt is bubbling away. I overshot my efficiency, and after tossing in the starter I have a little over 6 gallons in my bucket. Started bubbling 7 hours after pitching, and the next morning it is going crazy. The blow off bucket was beer colored and the hose full of crud, but no clogs and happily bubbling away.

Saq, you stated you were bringing down the size of the starter; does this affect the ability of the yeast to ramp the wort's temp up to the low 80's? If so, are you artificially heating your fermentation vessel, or just letting it ride and do what you want it to do?

A lower starter will not result in a lower final cell count in the fermenter, it will just mean more reproduction and more stress until it gets up to maximum yeast population. I feel like some of these reproduction and stress adds to the creation of some of the desirable yeast esters. Other yeasts produce bad off flavors when underpitched but most belgians do not (unless you dont want esters).
Since the yeast population will be the same there wont be any problems getting the heat up. If you are having problems getting the temp up you can wrap a blanket around the fermenter, that helps quite a bit.

Oak in a quad can be pretty nice if its subtle. One of the best beers I've ever had was Pannepot Grand Reserva which is barrel aged. Saboteur is also a really damn good beer and its oak aged.

saq said:

Since the yeast population will be the same there wont be any problems getting the heat up. If you are having problems getting the temp up you can wrap a blanket around the fermenter, that helps quite a bit.

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Thanks for the reply. The fermenter is currently wrapped up in 4 beach towels, though it is sitting on a lid that is on the floor, so not much insulation there, but the sides and top should be good enough.

Last time I brewed this batch the ferment got stuck, so hopefully all goes well this time. I will have to remember to shake it from time to time to keep that yeast suspended. I found out after brewing that my thermometer was off (damned thing needs to be replaced), so my mash temp was more around 152 rather than 150. Hopefully I still can drop down where I need to for the SG.

You need to make sure you mash low, 150 tops if single infusion. If you do step mashes you want to start lower.
Make sure you use the right amount of sugar (15% by gravity points) and you let the yeast get up t otemperature.

Crud, just checked my thermometer, seems I did do a 152 or so mash temp for the single infusion. It is fermenting away happily, after 24 hours from pitching the wort has risen to 74F.

I am concerned that I will get too high of an OG. I did a 3.1L stir plate starter, but the concern is the level of fermentables. I had the right amount of sugars added by gravity points.

Should I work up another starter and pitch that in part way through if it seems to not be dropping? Say after 4 or 5 days it is no where near 20 but instead at around 30, that would be when I would think about adding more yeast to the mix. And if it is just due to lack of fermentables and the yeast did all it could do, should I just go with an extra sweet brew in the end or should I potentially water it down to the expected FG? Thanks for any thoughts.

Adding more yeast of the same strain is not going to help lower the OG if the yeast has fermented all of the available fermentable sugars. Adding a more attenuative yeast (which can eat more complex sugars) will help, WY3711 is probably your best bet, its clean and will eat just about anything.

I did that before for a stuck fermentation with that strain, made my Belgian taste like a Saison unfortunately and brought the OG down too far. I will cross that bridge when I get there, no point worrying about it at this point.

daliusn said:

hey guys,
what do you think if age this beer in oak barrel? Just got one as a present

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Do it! I've never oaked a beer I didn't like.

Nateo said:

Do it! I've never oaked a beer I didn't like.

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Why would you oak a beer you didn't like? I just take them to parties and let my friends drink them!

Question about the fermentation temp.

I have the brew going, and it has leveled out at 74F after 2 days, no change in temp in the last 24 hours. I have no good way of artificially heating this. it is wrapped up in a bunch of blankets. I have also lost a decent amount of yeast to the blow off bucket. SG is at a 1.048, by my calculations it should have been a 1.042 to keep with the time schedule.

Should I just let it ride and figure it will take longer to ferment, or should I do anything to the brew to get it to ferment aggressively? I am figuring the temp level is to get esters produced rather than to get the fermentation done, correct? I normally do the RDWHAHB, but I want to catch this early if I need to adjust it rather than futz with it later.

I would put it in a tub with warm water (about 85F) and add hot water bottles to keep the temp up as close to 80 as possible.

rjwhite41 said:

I would put it in a tub with warm water (about 85F) and add hot water bottles to keep the temp up as close to 80 as possible.

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As I am in a little apartment I don't really have a spare tub to stick the fermenter in, as I don't think I want to take a shower with it. Though, it is supposed to be water/air tight....

I might stick the bucket in my boil kettle and wrap that up to insulate. Assuming I can get 1 gallon around the bucket, I need to have that water initially 115F. If I open the lid of the fermenter and give it a gentle stir, this will keep parts fo the wort from getting too much heat all at once. Or does this sound a bad plan?

The temperature level is important for this beer coming out the right way. Both ester production and attenuation level. There really isn't a way around that.
Get a fermwrap or some kind of heater you can wrap around your fermenter.

Tall_Yotie said:

As I am in a little apartment I don't really have a spare tub to stick the fermenter in, as I don't think I want to take a shower with it. Though, it is supposed to be water/air tight....

I might stick the bucket in my boil kettle and wrap that up to insulate. Assuming I can get 1 gallon around the bucket, I need to have that water initially 115F. If I open the lid of the fermenter and give it a gentle stir, this will keep parts fo the wort from getting too much heat all at once. Or does this sound a bad plan?

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I put mine in a closet with a space heater and very carefully set the thermostat to keep it just warm enough.

Tall_Yotie said:

As I am in a little apartment I don't really have a spare tub to stick the fermenter in, as I don't think I want to take a shower with it. Though, it is supposed to be water/air tight....

I might stick the bucket in my boil kettle and wrap that up to insulate. Assuming I can get 1 gallon around the bucket, I need to have that water initially 115F. If I open the lid of the fermenter and give it a gentle stir, this will keep parts fo the wort from getting too much heat all at once. Or does this sound a bad plan?

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I'm sorry I didn't mean a bath tub, I meant a storage tub or better yet a cooler. Just about anything that can hold warm water should work. Instead of using warm water bottles you could also use an aquarium heater. If you have a ferm wrap or space heater that would be better but I have found this to be a cheap alternative although it requires more attention.

I figured that after posting, hehe.
I have a trash can but that is really big. I am thinknig perhaps a 10g cooler (like that used for a mash tun) if the bucket with spigot can fit. If not, my brew kettle could work and just wrap the whole deal up. I will replace the lid with some plastic wrap so I can easier stir the wort to get the temperature distributed as well as monitor it. The aquarium heat I have might work, and as far as space heaters go or fermwrap I have none, alas.
Hopefully I can find a practical solution. Will get that done after work.

saq said:

Are you using unrefined sugar? If you are using refined granulated white sugar it seems kind of silly to go for organic if its something in the range of 99%+ pure minimum.

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Given the level of refinement of sucrose I do understand your point and in principle I agree. (here's where I waffle on the issue a little). Basic refined sucrose is treated with hydrochloric acid in the refining process and trace by-products were showing up in our analysis so we decided we wanted an indisputably pure product. Even if the levels were tolerable it was just contrary to our business vision even at the mmg level. Organic sugar is about 15% more in cost but in bulk, (1000 lb palates), the cost increase is eliminated. So, we can sleep a little better at night knowing our level of quality even exceeds European food standards

saq said:

Adding more yeast of the same strain is not going to help lower the OG if the yeast has fermented all of the available fermentable sugars. Adding a more attenuative yeast (which can eat more complex sugars) will help, WY3711 is probably your best bet, its clean and will eat just about anything.

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Disagree just a little on this saq. Yeast that has been exhausted may still be alive but no longer attenuative. I've re-pitched Westmalle before with notable reduction in OG but this is a very last resort. Measured single pitch is always best.

Yep, 3711 is an efficient bug. Our experience is that it adds a classic Saison "funk" but never having used it on a Westy clone I'm not sure if the flavor will come though or not.

I had the flavor come through from the 3711 on a brew of the same style as this recipe. It actually goes pretty poorly with it, 5 months of aging and I still don't care for it; may be dumping it after one last tasting attempt.

As for the temp, I went and got a 10g cylindrical cooler (been wanting one as a mash tun to replace my rectangular one), put the fermenter in there and added warm water. I then realized that my BACKUP thermometer reads 1F below actual, so the wort is sitting at 82F (6 gallons) with the bath around it at 89 (4 gallons). I tried to cool off the bath a bit, will see how that goes, but I would rather have the issue of having to cool the wort rather than having to warm it. Luckily my backup to my backup thermometer works fine.

I will probably post again soon to show that all is going well and back on track!

Tall_Yotie said:

I had the flavor come through from the 3711 on a brew of the same style as this recipe. It actually goes pretty poorly with it, 5 months of aging and I still don't care for it; may be dumping it after one last tasting attempt.

As for the temp, I went and got a 10g cylindrical cooler (been wanting one as a mash tun to replace my rectangular one), put the fermenter in there and added warm water. I then realized that my BACKUP thermometer reads 1F below actual, so the wort is sitting at 82F (6 gallons) with the bath around it at 89 (4 gallons). I tried to cool off the bath a bit, will see how that goes, but I would rather have the issue of having to cool the wort rather than having to warm it. Luckily my backup to my backup thermometer works fine.

I will probably post again soon to show that all is going well and back on track!

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Yep, given the amazing vitality of 3711 I'm not surprised that it added it's funk to the brew. Thanks for the heads up.

So after 5 days I am only at 1.026; I am thinking of keeping it at the 80-82F range for another day. Should I bring the temp down a little though? I want to let it ferment out, but I don't want to end up with banana beer. That happened last time I brewed this when a heat wave hit it when it was supposed to be cooling down.

gio said:

Took the first gravity reading today, 7 days after pitching. It was at 1.018 so it's exactly where it should be. I've been holding it at 81 the past few days. I'll continue to hold it there a few more days, then I'll let it drop to 65, and transfer to secondary next weekend to age it at 50 for another 6 weeks or so.

I tasted the wort and wow, it's amazing. Very strong fruity esters and little to no fusel alcohols. It had a very warm alcoholic taste though. I suppose this is to be expected though as it's about 10% ABV, very young, and not yet carbonated. I'm not sure if it's the yeast, the warm fermentation temps or the D2 (none of which I've used before) but this beer promises to be great so far.

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Racked to secondary for cold conditioning on Saturday after two weeks in the primary. Gravity was 1.014 which might be slightly high but within the range of error of my hydrometer. Tasted some of the beer and wow, it tastes amazing so far. It definitely has that thick plum/fig fruity flavor that I like in belgian quads. I've never had Westvleteren 12, so I don't know if it's close but it tastes kind of like Rochefort 10 which I've heard is similar. It's going to be tough waiting 8 more weeks. I feel like if I bottled it now, it would be a great beer, so I can't imagine how will get even better. I think the D2 belgian candi syrup and fermentation temperatures made the difference (as did perhaps the decoction mash). I just brewed a Rochefort 10 clone this past weekend with a similar recipe where I also added in a little amber candi syrup. Can't wait to see how that one turns out.

Which recipe did you use for the Rochefort 10 clone?

smuth10 said:

Which recipe did you use for the Rochefort 10 clone?

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I started a thread about it, here are the basics:

11.25lb Belgian Pilsner
1.0lb Flaked Wheat
1.5lb CaraVienne
1.5lb CaraMunich
0.25lb Belgian Debittered Black
1.5lb Amber Belgian Candi Syrup (10min)
2.25lb D2 Belgian Candi Syrup (10min)
0.25oz Crushed Coriander (10min)
4tsp Yeast Nutrient (10min)
1/2tsp Irish Moss
8 AAU Styrian Goldings (80min)
4 AAU Hallertauer Hersbrucker (10min)
Wyeast 1762 Rochefort
Batch size: 5.5 gallons
OG: 1.098 (75% efficiency)
FG: 1.014 (estimated)
IBU: 27
SRM: 45
Boil time: 90min
Enhanced double decoction mash, pitch at 68, let rise, for 2 weeks, rack to secondary cold condition for 6 weeks, repitch and bottle condition

Since_Uuz_Up said:

Given the level of refinement of sucrose I do understand your point and in principle I agree. (here's where I waffle on the issue a little). Basic refined sucrose is treated with hydrochloric acid in the refining process and trace by-products were showing up in our analysis so we decided we wanted an indisputably pure product. Even if the levels were tolerable it was just contrary to our business vision even at the mmg level. Organic sugar is about 15% more in cost but in bulk, (1000 lb palates), the cost increase is eliminated. So, we can sleep a little better at night knowing our level of quality even exceeds European food standards

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When are you going to have a few pounds of your D90 and D180 for me to test? I've got a batch of the Traditional coming up soon

saq said:

When are you going to have a few pounds of your D90 and D180 for me to test? I've got a batch of the Traditional coming up soon

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I'm interested in beta testing too. I make a belgian every month and I'd love to try out your new syrup.

saq said:

When are you going to have a few pounds of your D90 and D180 for me to test? I've got a batch of the Traditional coming up soon

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saq, gio, we're excited about offering the authentic syrups too. We have agreed to perform trials only once our finished retail packaging is ready and we have the capacity for US sales, (we're estimating 600 Liters/day) . When production is at least partially up and running early this Fall, we'll immediately begin trials with full volume sales following in early November. We will only be trialing D90 and D180 coming in Spring 2012.

Since_Uuz_Up said:

saq, gio, we're excited about offering the authentic syrups too.

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I think it's funny that you can call them "authentic" syrups. That's a pretty meaningless term, but it sounds good for marketing, so it'll probably serve you well.

I hope the AHA doesn't mind, but I had the opportunity to ask Stan Hieronymus from BLAM about this for the last AHA "Ask and expert" column:
The gist of my question was "what's the deal with dark candi syrup?"
Stan Answers:
“Authentic” seems to cause particular confusion when it comes to monastery-brewed beers. Every Trappist brewery in Belgium has made many changes in process in recent years, even since BLAM was published. Things certainly have changed since the 1920s when Westmalle began using what was referred to as “candi sugar,” but was in fact what we would call dark syrup. Does the fact that a brewery would change vendors over time make it less authentic?

But specifically, no, there is no single vendor. The companies that make the syrup do much more business with confectionary manufacturers. Literally at the same time that BLAM was working its way through the final stages of production Brian Mercer was tracking down syrups to import and the result was Dark Candi Inc. I wouldn’t call it “black magic” but I’ve since tasted many American-brewed beers that have the same rich, rummy character you find in a beer from Rochefort, and those beers included Dark Candi in the recipe. As Randy Mosher has pointed out in his own books, and in providing a syrup recipe for BLAM, you can make your own dark syrup. You can also experiment with less refined sugars from specialty grocers. For example there is a Mexican grocery near me that sells a sugar with distinct rummy notes."