All-Grain: Saison de Erin (looking for input)

I want to brew another beer for the wife. She loved the first beer I did for her, which was basically a gumballhead clone. This time I'm wanting to take a stab at her favorite style. Saison. The recipe is pretty basic, but i'm looking for some input. As a note, once it's out of primary I was thinking I'd split the batch and toss in the dregs of a bottle of Boulevard Saison-Bret to one half.

Saison de Erin
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Wyeast 3724 - Belgian Saison
Yeast Starter: None
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: None
Batch Size (Gallons): 5
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity:1.009
IBU: 28
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 5.1 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 14 days at 80 F

Grain Bill:
8 # Belgian Pils
2 # German Wheat
.5 # Dextrose (in boil)

Hops:
1 oz EKG 5.5% AA 60 Min
.5 oz EKG 5.5% AA 30 Min
.5 oz EKG 5.5% AA 15 Min

Single Step Infusion at 147 F

Fly Sparge to 7.5 gallons.

Boil for 90 minutes down to 6 gallons. Expect to lost .5 gal to wort shrinkage

Cool to 80 degrees and pitch.

After primary is done split the batch. Bottle half and add enough priming sugar to carb to about 2.15 volumes. Put the other half in a secondary fermentation vessel and pitch the dregs of a bottle of Boulevard Saison-Bret.

edit: removed CaraVienne and added Dextrose

The grainbill and hopping look standard. The only time I brewed a Saison, I used straight pils and 10% sugar, no crystal and a lower OG, but I like my beers dry, especially my belgian beers.

Just two things:

a) 3724 is NOTORIOUS for being a pain to work with. I used 3711 (French Saison) and it might not be the classic strain, but it's easy to work with and will produce a nice saison that will not stick and will attenuate to ge the beer in the low single digits. If you want the challenge, go with 3724, but be prepared for it to stick at 1.030. I'd wager that Dupont uses a multistrain and that 3274 is only part of the equation, but what do I know ?

b) I'd start lower than 80F or you risk overwhelming the yeast and having a very hot ferment. For 3274, that might not be a bad thing, but if the yeast starts going crazy and there's a slight drop in temperature or they overheat the beer, the risk of having a stuck fermentation increases. 70F and letting it rise would be better, imho.

jfr1111 said:

The grainbill and hopping look standard. The only time I brewed a Saison, I used straight pils and 10% sugar, no crystal and a lower OG, but I like my beers dry, especially my belgian beers.

Just two things:

a) 3724 is NOTORIOUS for being a pain to work with. I used 3711 (French Saison) and it might not be the classic strain, but it's easy to work with and will produce a nice saison that will not stick and will attenuate to ge the beer in the low single digits. If you want the challenge, go with 3724, but be prepared for it to stick at 1.030. I'd wager that Dupont uses a multistrain and that 3274 is only part of the equation, but what do I know ?

b) I'd start lower than 80F or you risk overwhelming the yeast and having a very hot ferment. For 3274, that might not be a bad thing, but if the yeast starts going crazy and there's a slight drop in temperature or they overheat the beer, the risk of having a stuck fermentation increases. 70F and letting it rise would be better, imho.

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Thanks for the note on temp. I'll probably take your advice and start at 70 and ramp it up a couple of degrees a day until I hit 80. As I understand it warm fermentation is crucial with this strain. Wyeast says it can get stuck, but given time it will ferment out. They also say ramping up temp to 90 can help accelerate things, so I might try that if fermentation hangs for any length of time.

I actually do prefer my saisons pretty dry. So I may take out the caravienne, and sub something else. I figure mashing at 147 will help that quite a bit though too.

Most saisons don't have any caramel malts, so if it were me, I'd omit the caravienne, possibly subbing biscuit or lightly toasting the wheat. But if the Mrs. wants it a little sweeter, then leave it in. I was going to say something about the EKG, but apparently Dupont uses it along with Styrian Goldings. So nevermind. I've had nice results with Saaz, Motueka, mixing Centennial and Nugget, and with bittering hops only. These days people hop their saisons with just about anything, so just use whatever seems appropriate to you. Did you mean to put "no" for a yeast starter? To most people, that would be pitching about half of what you need. I'm not most people, to me that's allowing the yeast to produce more yeasty goodness.

LoneWolfPR said:

Thanks for the note on temp. I'll probably take your advice and start at 70 and ramp it up a couple of degrees a day until I hit 80. As I understand it warm fermentation is crucial with this strain. Wyeast says it can get stuck, but given time it will ferment out. They also say ramping up temp to 90 can help accelerate things, so I might try that if fermentation hangs for any length of time.

I actually do prefer my saisons pretty dry. So I may take out the caravienne, and sub something else. I figure mashing at 147 will help that quite a bit though too.

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I wouldn't sub anything, I'd just go pils andwheat if I were you. Maybe biscuit. Maybe, but a good pils malt will be bready enough.

I updated the recipe removing the caravienne and adding a half-pound of dextrose. That plus the low mash will probably hit the dryness I want. The wife actually likes them dry too.

kingwood-kid said:

Most saisons don't have any caramel malts, so if it were me, I'd omit the caravienne, possibly subbing biscuit or lightly toasting the wheat. But if the Mrs. wants it a little sweeter, then leave it in. I was going to say something about the EKG, but apparently Dupont uses it along with Styrian Goldings. So nevermind. I've had nice results with Saaz, Motueka, mixing Centennial and Nugget, and with bittering hops only. These days people hop their saisons with just about anything, so just use whatever seems appropriate to you. Did you mean to put "no" for a yeast starter? To most people, that would be pitching about half of what you need. I'm not most people, to me that's allowing the yeast to produce more yeasty goodness.

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As for the yeast, unless I go over 1.060 I don't usually worry about more than a smack pack. I've never had an issue just dumping the smack pack without a starter.

LoneWolfPR said:

I updated the recipe removing the caravienne and adding a half-pound of dextrose. That plus the low mash will probably hit the dryness I want. The wife actually likes them dry too.



As for the yeast, unless I go over 1.060 I don't usually worry about more than a smack pack. I've never had an issue just dumping the smack pack without a starter.

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If you are going with 3274, you're begging for it to stick if you don't make a starter. That strain is probably one of the most finicky that is available to home brewers in the wyeast catalogue. There are tons of threads filled to the brim with homebrewers pulling their hair out because it stuck for them.

I've never used 3724 or 565, but I have a culture that I grew from Dupont dregs that never sticks. The last time I used it, it chewed a beer from 40 to 2 in just a few days. 566, 585, 3711 and 3726 are all currently available, and none have the rep of sticking.

jfr1111 said:

If you are going with 3274, you're begging for it to stick if you don't make a starter. That strain is probably one of the most finicky that is available to home brewers in the wyeast catalogue. There are tons of threads filled to the brim with homebrewers pulling their hair out because it stuck for them.

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I will be building a stir plate here soon. I suppose it wouldn't be that big a deal for me to throw a smack pack into 2L of starter wort.

Here's a question, if I am going to divide after primary fermentation and pitch the dregs of Saison-Bret should I add some malto-dextrin to the beer to give the bret something to chew on?

I think Boulevard uses champagne yeast to condition most of their beers. Since champagne doesn't eat maltotriose, the brett will have plenty to eat. It just won't be a saison, although I'm of the opinion that the base style is relatively unimportant when Brett is involved.

kingwood-kid said:

I think Boulevard uses champagne yeast to condition most of their beers. Since champagne doesn't eat maltotriose, the brett will have plenty to eat. It just won't be a saison, although I'm of the opinion that the base style is relatively unimportant when Brett is involved.

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I'm not going to use the dregs for primary fermentation. I'll primary the whole batch with the same yeast. After primary I'll split it. Then add some malto-dextrin to half the batch and add the dregs of the Saison-Brett. So it should have plenty of saison character plus the brett funk if I let it go for a while. That all seem like it should work as I expect?

For the record, I used 3724 without a starter and it never stuck. Took a little longer than most of my beers but it dropped to 1.005 after 4 weeks. I did keep it at around 90F, however, so it may just really need to be hot.

LoneWolfPR said:

I'm not going to use the dregs for primary fermentation. I'll primary the whole batch with the same yeast. After primary I'll split it. Then add some malto-dextrin to half the batch and add the dregs of the Saison-Brett. So it should have plenty of saison character plus the brett funk if I let it go for a while. That all seem like it should work as I expect?

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That makes more sense. Which is probably why you wrote it that way to begin with. It should work fine. The drier the beer is, the less the brett will have to work with. It can still make its presence known in a very dry beer, just a little more slowly.

I suppose the only real remaining question is if I take half the batch (2.5 gals) how much malto-dextrin should I add in the secondary with the saison-brett dregs?

Well just did some math. If I add a half pound of maltodextrin will give me about 8 points of gravity added for the brett to work with. Does that seem like enough to give it some good character in addition to the remaining sugars, or should I go more?

I'm by no means a Brett-ologist, but I've seen it said that 2-3 gravity points is sufficient, although I don't think there's any harm in adding more. I think much of the funk comes from recombining existing compounds, not just from eating sugars. I've heard a little acid helps with that.

You do not need the maltodextrin with brett. Brett eats everything but proteins. It will find something to eat.

You are fine with the pilsner/wheat blend but a lot of saisons use some munich for a little caramel sweetness. You could sub in up to 10% of the grain bill as munich, if you wanted.

If you are using a saison yeast and you want really bold yeast character, start it around 75 and let it get as hot as you can get it. Otherwise, start around 70 and let it rise to 80 for a more neutral flavor. Saison yeast like it hot and do not produce the off flavors or higher alcohols at hotter temperatures like most other strains.

And ditch the 30 minute hop addition. Move it to knockout to get some hop aroma.