APA Recipe Critique

Hello all,
I'm planning my second recipe (I've done mostly pre-assembled clone kits so far), which will be a light APA. I selected the hops and yeast for a citrus flavor, and to try something new to me. I wanted amarillo but it wasn't available, so the shop recommended the zythos as a substitute. I wanted to keep it on the lighter side (color wise), but in hindsight I might have gone with a darker crystal to bring the SRM up to 8 or so. I've already bought the ingredients but won't be brewing until the weekend, so I can still modify it.

Any thoughts, particularly on the hop schedule? Right now I have 2oz each of citra and zythos.

Thanks,
John


Brew Method: Extract
Style Name: American Pale Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.125 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3 gallons
Efficiency: 25% (steeping grains only)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.056
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 5.46%
IBU (tinseth): 44.3
SRM (morey): 6.15

FERMENTABLES:
3 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Extra Light (31.6%)
4 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Light (42.1%)

STEEPING GRAINS:
1 lb - German - Munich Light (10.5%)
0.5 lb - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (5.3%)
1 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 10L (10.5%)

HOPS:
0.75 oz - Citra for 60 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 14.4, IBU: 26.48)
0.75 oz - Citra for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 14.4, IBU: 9.6)
0.75 oz - Zythos for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 6.67)
0.75 oz - Zythos for 2 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 1.55)
0.5 oz - Citra for 7 days, Type: Pellet, Use: Dry Hop (AA 14.4)
0.5 oz - Zythos for 7 days, Type: Pellet, Use: Dry Hop (AA 10)

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 tsp - irish moss, Time: 15 min, Type: Other, Use: Boil

YEAST:
Wyeast - American Ale II 1272

Looks tasty! I haven't brewed with Zythos so I'll be really interested in what you think. The Munich will give it some color as well as the crystal. If you bump the roast of the crystal you might consider dropping the volume a bit, but at 10°L one pound is not too much. And with extract brewing you really don't need the carapils. It is used to add body through long chain dextrines that the yeast can't break down but there are already plenty of unfermentables in the extract. Let us know how she turns out!

Thanks. I added the carapils to my last batch at the suggestion of another HBT member that it would help with head retention. I still have half a pound left, so I figured I'd throw it in.

I guess there's no harm in it being a little lighter than I typically consider a pale ale to be. I'm going for a little lighter flavor too...will the crystal 10L have a less malty flavor than a 30L, or will it just affect the color?

Thanks again,
John

I wouldn't worry about color. Brewing the recipe above, even with a late extract addition, will yield an SRM more like 8-9. You're not going to get 6.

The darker crystals are more pruney, toasty, caramelly. It's not that they have more flavor overall, just more of those types of flavors. In any case, I would limit crystal malt in a hoppy beer at 8% total, and even this is a lot for some. 5% or less would be common. Munich malt should be mashed, not steeped. Carapils is redundant in an extract beer.

Lastly, your recipe needs more hops. 4 oz. is not enough when you are reducing 3 gallons to about 2 gallons post-boil and then topping off with another 3 gallons of plain water. I would advise a full volume boil with no top off water and 6-7 oz. total hops.

That's good feedback, bobbrews. If I reduce the crystal 10L to .5 lb, it drops to 5.1%. Is it worthwhile to do a partial mash on the munich (which I've never done before), or just steep it for some flavor and color? My process has always been to steep the grains at 150F for 30 min, then rinse with 150F water...is this much different than a partial mash?

Unfortunately, I can't handle a full boil on my stovetop. I could probably get 3.5 gallons boiling, but not much more than that. Plus my pot isn't big enough for a full boil.

Thanks,
John

Good job on reducing the crystal malt.

A mash is not that different from a steep. It's just a much stricter process and usually done with more unconverted grain than just a mere 1-2 lbs. But since Munich makes up more than 10% of your grist, it will be beneficial to mash.

To simplify the process for you in this case, all you need to do is hold the grain around 145-147 F for 40-60 minutes. Place this in a covered small pot. Use a mash ratio of 1 liter water per 1 lb. grain. Afterward, strain and pour 168 F water over the grain (hopefully held in a strainer) to rinse.

Gas or electric range? Do you have another kettle you can use, i.e. one 4 gallon and one 3 gallon kettle? If so, you could straddle 2 burners for each kettle and then combine everything in the primary.

bobbrews,
I'm working my way up to all-grain, but besides my extract setup, I only have a single 10 gallon Powerade cooler so far. Maybe over the next year I'll build up my equipment - burner, larger pot, etc. I'll take your advice on the partial mash of the Munich. Should I still steep the crystal at 150 separately?

I have a nice gas range but haven't boiled more than 3.5 gallons so far, mostly because my kettle is only 5 gallons. From what I've read, my range doesn't have quite the capacity to boil a full 5 gallons anyway. My next biggest pot is a 2 gallon spaghetti pot, so I might be able to boil 1.5 gallons. If I were to do this, I'd re-calculate hops for a 5 gallon boil and split up each of the hop additions in 70/30 ratios, right? It's an interesting idea, but I'll probably just boost my boil to 3.5 gallons, which bumps my IBU up by about 5 units.

Thanks again,
John

Just mash it altogether.

I frequently boil 5-6 gallons on my indoor gas range when I brew indoors. I don't have a fancy oven, but kettle material does have something to do with it. My aluminum kettle holds a stronger boil than my SS/Alum combo kettle. I use both simultaneously sometimes (5-6 gal in my Alum kettle and 3.5-4.5 gal in my SS/Alum kettle). The former holds a stronger boil despite holding more wort. Both straddle two burners each.

I wouldn't bother with the dual kettle thing unless your smaller one is minimum 3.5 gal capacity. Ideally for indoor gas range brewing, two 6-8 gal aluminum kettles would be awesome.

Use a recipe calculator to figure out your IBU's when using top off water. Total IBU's around 40-45 would be about right for an OG of 1.056.

I would recommend putting about 1.5 oz of Citra total as dry hop and/or at flame out (0 minutes) addition. I have my house APA going right now with my first use of Citra and even with 66% Cascade and 34% Citra as dry hop my fermentation chamber smells like tangerines! Citra definitely lives up to its name!

bobbrews, thanks again for the suggestions!

Jayhem, I used brewersfriend with a boil size of 3 gallons to calculate the IBU. When you say 40-45 would be right, do you mean to balance the malts and bitterness?

I've been thinking about brewing something with a tangerine/orange flavor since I started brewing and considering how it might taste. I'm thinking of doing an IPA next with a good amount of orange zest and the juice from maybe half an orange, but for this one I want it all to come from the hops. Maybe I'll pick up another 2oz of citra and boost the dry hop.

Thanks,
John

Tangerine/orange is more akin to an APA brewed with some combo of Summit, Amarillo, Centennial, Ahtanum. Actual use of OJ, oranges, or zest is not needed for this goal. Citra is full of tropical fruit. Cascade is full of grapefruit.

JohnK93 said:

Jayhem, I used brewersfriend with a boil size of 3 gallons to calculate the IBU. When you say 40-45 would be right, do you mean to balance the malts and bitterness?

I've been thinking about brewing something with a tangerine/orange flavor since I started brewing and considering how it might taste. I'm thinking of doing an IPA next with a good amount of orange zest and the juice from maybe half an orange, but for this one I want it all to come from the hops. Maybe I'll pick up another 2oz of citra and boost the dry hop.

Thanks,
John

Click to expand...

Yes, I mean that for an APA style the Gravity/IBU ratio (BU:GU) should be about 0.75 so for an OG of 1.056 you would aim for 42 IBU's (42/56 = .75) This would be the ideal balance for an American Pale Ale true to style.

For an IPA you definitely want to up the hops compared to an APA. Most homebrewers use a total of 8-16 oz of hops in a 5.5 gallon batch of IPA!

Look into "hop stand" or "hop whirlpooling". This technique really adds a lot of hop aroma to the finished beer, I was amazed how much more nose mine has when I do this!

That's a lot of hops! I don't remember off the top of my head, but I don't recall any of the clone kits I've done using that many hops, and my last kit was a clone of Green Flash West Coast IPA. Although now that I think of it, between the hop additions and the dry hop it might have come close to 8oz. I'm not terribly worried about matching the style, just want to create a crisp beer with a bit of a citrus/fruity flavor, and to experiment with different hops, yeasts, and techniques. And, of course, to learn a thing or two.

I started looking into hop stand and whirlpooling. I've heard the terms, but have never done it myself. Is this usually done in addition to dry hopping, or does it mean you don't need to dry hop with as many hops? Or is it in addition to dry hopping to really kick up the hoppiness? Or does it give a bit of a different kind of hoppiness?

Thanks a lot...this is really great information!

John

JohnK93 said:

That's a lot of hops! I don't remember off the top of my head, but I don't recall any of the clone kits I've done using that many hops, and my last kit was a clone of Green Flash West Coast IPA. Although now that I think of it, between the hop additions and the dry hop it might have come close to 8oz. I'm not terribly worried about matching the style, just want to create a crisp beer with a bit of a citrus/fruity flavor, and to experiment with different hops, yeasts, and techniques. And, of course, to learn a thing or two.

I started looking into hop stand and whirlpooling. I've heard the terms, but have never done it myself. Is this usually done in addition to dry hopping, or does it mean you don't need to dry hop with as many hops? Or is it in addition to dry hopping to really kick up the hoppiness? Or does it give a bit of a different kind of hoppiness?

Thanks a lot...this is really great information!

John

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Actually you are right, my IPA recipe is actually an 11 gallon batch that uses 16 oz so that's only 8oz in 5.5 gallons.

Hop whirlpooling is the technique of adding hops after the boil, best once the wort is below 180F since most of the volatile aromas are lost if you add hops to boiling wort. The point of it is to impart flavor/aroma to the beer without adding much extra bitterness like you get from boiling hops and without losing most of the hop aroma by boil off.

Whirlpooling can substitute for dry hopping but most brewers still prefer to dry hop for an added freshness to the hop aroma. Generally I will use up to 2/3 of my total hops in my IPA's as whirlpool and dry hop with only a 60 minute addition for bittering and maybe a 10 min addition of an ounce or 2, the rest for whirlpool and dry hop. There are plenty of hop schedules you can try but I find that more late additions is the most efficient use of your expensive hops since bitterness can come from almost any high AA% clean hop.

Well, you've convinced me. I'm going to pick up another 2oz of hops and throw them in after cooling to 180. I think maybe I'll oost the zythos, which is supposed to have a bit more of a citrus aroma than the citra.

I just checked my recipe for the Green Flash IPA and it calls for about 5-6oz of hops, depending on what you use for bittering, and is calculated to be 94 IBU.

Thanks,
John

hey bobbrews,
A little off topic, but I was looking at my last recipe for APA and my bill percentages were 72% DME, 5.6% carapils, 11% crystal 40L and 11% crystal 20L (roughly). From your comment, I gather that 22% crystal is too much. How does this affect the taste/feel of the beer? In looking through recipes on brewersfriend, it seems that for APAs the crystal steeping grains sometimes make up more than 12-20% of the bill, at least for extract batches.

BTW, the beer I referenced above came out perfectly drinkable, but I wouldn't brew it again as-is. I can't pinpoint what I don't love about it, but it's not quite what I was going for...maybe too much crystal?

Thanks,
John

Crystal provides some sweetness and mouthfeel as well as head retention. Adding Carapils to a beer that already has >5% Crystal is overkill, especially on a hoppy beer like APA or IPA. Carapils are really just for head retention and body without adding sweetness or other flavor.

JohnK93 said:

hey bobbrews,
A little off topic, but I was looking at my last recipe for APA and my bill percentages were 72% DME, 5.6% carapils, 11% crystal 40L and 11% crystal 20L (roughly). From your comment, I gather that 22% crystal is too much. How does this affect the taste/feel of the beer? In looking through recipes on brewersfriend, it seems that for APAs the crystal steeping grains sometimes make up more than 12-20% of the bill, at least for extract batches.

BTW, the beer I referenced above came out perfectly drinkable, but I wouldn't brew it again as-is. I can't pinpoint what I don't love about it, but it's not quite what I was going for...maybe too much crystal?

Click to expand...

Yeah, I would have never recommended 22% crystal. Crystal is sweet, toasty, and caramelly. In high doses for an APA, it's very cloying and kills the hoppy dry character of this style of beer. The darker crystals have more flavors akin to prunes, raisins, brown sugar (C80-150). For an extract APA you want to shoot for under 10% crystal. I wouldn't even bother using carapils since there is already a portion of it in the extract.

I picked up some more hops, so now I have 4oz each of citra and zythos. My schedule is (for a total of just about 50 IBU):

HOPS:
0.75 oz - Citra for 60 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 14.4, IBU: 29.4)
0.75 oz - Citra for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 14.4, IBU: 10.66)
0.75 oz - Zythos for 10 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 7.4)
0.75 oz - Zythos for 2 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 10, IBU: 1.73)
1.5 oz - Zythos for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 10)
0.5 oz - Citra for 7 days, Type: Pellet, Use: Dry Hop (AA 14.4)
1 oz - Zythos for 7 days, Type: Pellet, Use: Dry Hop (AA 10)

This still leaves me with 2oz of citra that I could use if I wanted. Would you change anything? Would you recommend adding any more citra to the dry hop or whirlpool, or leaving it as is? I don't really have a sense of what they add and how much flavor/aroma they add.

Thanks,
John

Hey all,
Just a follow up...I had my first couple of bottles of this brew after 2 weeks in primary, 2 weeks in secondary with 7 days dry hopping, and almost 2 weeks in bottles. Chilled a couple of bottles for only 1 day.

It's pretty damn good. Not incredibly hoppy, but for an APA it's appropriate. I don't exactly have a refined pallet, but I don't get a big hop aroma. Could stand some more dry hopping, but the flavor and aroma that are there are nice. I think the flavors need to mellow a bit, but for a young beer I'm really happy with it. It's still pretty cloudy, but I don't go to great lengths to clarify my beer (I even forgot the irish moss in this on). I'll give them a few days of cold crashing and see what happens.

Overall, a big improvement over my last recipe. These will be some nice spring/summer ales!

Nice! You can't really go wrong with a good pale ale recipe. My Pale ale is our house favorite, I always have it in the pipeline if at all possible!

I wouldn't worry about color

I'm getting good feedback on this beer...even my mother in law, who didn't even drink any, said it smells great - like mango, she said! She's got a better nose than I do.

For the next batch, I might move some of the extract to a late addition for a lighter color, although I don't want to affect the bitterness too much. I was also considering adding a small amount of wheat to get the foam to be a little fluffier and more stable. Will this have the desired effect, and how much (or how little, I should say) would I add?

I'm also going to boost the dry hopping for a little more aroma, but the citra-zythos combo is working pretty well.

I think this will be our "house" pale, but why not try to make it even better, right?

John

JohnK93 said:

I'm getting good feedback on this beer...even my mother in law, who didn't even drink any, said it smells great - like mango, she said! She's got a better nose than I do.

For the next batch, I might move some of the extract to a late addition for a lighter color, although I don't want to affect the bitterness too much. I was also considering adding a small amount of wheat to get the foam to be a little fluffier and more stable. Will this have the desired effect, and how much (or how little, I should say) would I add?

I'm also going to boost the dry hopping for a little more aroma, but the citra-zythos combo is working pretty well.

I think this will be our "house" pale, but why not try to make it even better, right?

John

Click to expand...

Glad it turned out well and I am constantly tweaking my recipes until I get them just like I want them! You will actually increase hop utilization by doing a late extract addition if you are only boiling a portion of the wort and topping off with water. You want the portion you boil to have enough malt extract to approximate the final gravity. If you have all the extract in less water it actually lowers your hop utilization. I really like flaked oats or flaked wheat to add a nice smooth mouthfeel and better head retention.

I'm trying to avoid adding any more IBUs to the beer, which is why I'm re-thinking my late extract addition, but I wouldn't mind it a little bit lighter in color.

How much oats or wheat would you add for a 5 gallon batch to improve mouthfeel and head retention but minimize any other changes?

-John

JohnK93 said:

I'm trying to avoid adding any more IBUs to the beer, which is why I'm re-thinking my late extract addition, but I wouldn't mind it a little bit lighter in color.

How much oats or wheat would you add for a 5 gallon batch to improve mouthfeel and head retention but minimize any other changes?

-John

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I'd use about 8-10 oz of wheat or oats. I use 8oz/5 gallon in my wheat beer of oats and it makes a difference while still keeping it light and refreshing.

Jayhem said:

I'd use about 8-10 oz of wheat or oats. I use 8oz/5 gallon in my wheat beer of oats and it makes a difference while still keeping it light and refreshing.

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Yep, sounds right to me too John. I tend to use a little more than that in mine but 8oz is a good place to start. I have also had really good luck getting very smooth bitterness by first wort hopping my initial bittering addition and then whirlpooling all my late additions. You get tons of wonderful hop character without harsh bitterness.