roselaire blend during primary

Just out of curiosity, I have brewed a batch of beer using roselaire blend in the primary fermentation as the primary blend of yeast. Its been about 5 months and I have read that this probably isnt the best method to getting a good sour beer. Non the less, this is what I did as a brewer new to this style. Just wondering if anybody has taken this approach and what the result was. Thanks, probably just need to taste it and find out. Also, this fermentation has been entirely in a plastic bucket. I have read that this isnt the best method either bc of the permeability of plastic. Worst comes to worse I may just end up blending this batch with something else. Let me know your thoughts

1) Pitching the blend at the start supposedly helps increase sourness. I usually pitch the bugs when I transfer to secondary after a week so that I don't contaminate my plastic fermenters. I don't think you have any problems with your first issue.

2) I've used both glass and HDPE side-by-side, and after 8 months could not tell the difference between the 2 beers. Providing you don't keep opening the lid, I don't think you will have any problem.

Just place it in the corner and forget about it for another 6 months.

You did the right thing to pitch the roeselare in the primary. I've made 4 sour beers (2 flanders reds and 2 browns) this way and they came out very sour. They were fairly sour at 2 months.

Buckets are probably a mistake. I don't know about the O2 permeability, but the lid fit would give me concern. Letting too much oxygen in there will result in ascetic acid production - that's vinegar. Believe me, you'll taste it if it's there. A little is OK and a part of the style. A lot might make you use it for salad dressing.

I've used both glass carboys and better bottles and fermented for nearly a year. I did not have any problem with the plastic better bottle. Judges told me I brewed a Russian River supplication clone.

You haven't tasted it in 5 months? You're better than I.

I pitched Roselare only in the primary and it can increase the speed and amount of sourness you get, although I think the IBUs in your recipe can play a role in that too. Nothing wrong with what you did on either point.
If it's been 5 months I would give it a sample - it may have already soured enough for your tastes, since Roselare in primary will probably sour quicker. If it's not ready yet, put it back in the corner and forget about it for a while longer.

That is all great news. Everything that I have read makes it seem like my beer was destined to fail. So after I taste it, if it is at the desired sourness, is it ok to bottle? If I condition bottle this, will I need to add yeast for carbonation? If so, any recommendations? Finally, I have read that you cannot wash and reuse the yeast, Has any one tried?

thomasgorff said:

That is all great news. Everything that I have read makes it seem like my beer was destined to fail. So after I taste it, if it is at the desired sourness, is it ok to bottle? If I condition bottle this, will I need to add yeast for carbonation? If so, any recommendations? Finally, I have read that you cannot wash and reuse the yeast, Has any one tried?

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I don't think I added more yeast when I bottled and it carbed fine.

It's OK to bottle when you like the taste.

I reused the yeast from a 9 month old flanders red that was never put on secondary. The yeast made an even better flanders red the second time.

Then, I moved that second flanders red to a secondary, and used that same yeast to make a sour brown. That brown is still cooking. IT's sour.

I think there's some truth to the wisdom that the blend ratio gets screwed up when reusing the yeast. But I can tell you that it still makes great sours. I wish you could try mine, I think you'd agree.

passedpawn said:

I wish you could try mine, I think you'd agree.

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I'd be willing to make that sacrifice

passedpawn said:

I wish you could try mine, I think you'd agree.

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I'd be willing to make that sacrifice

thomasgorff said:

If I condition bottle this, will I need to add yeast for carbonation? If so, any recommendations? Finally, I have read that you cannot wash and reuse the yeast, Has any one tried?

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No, you don't need to add yeast. Maybe if you let it go for over a year. There should be plenty of Brett around to carbonate for up to 18 months.

Don't wash the cake. Re-use it as is. You might want to add some fresh sacc yeast as that is the first to die. If you are concerned about it getting too sour, you might just want to use a part of the cake ..... after all, some batches just get the sour going by using the dregs from a single bottle.

good stuff, I am planning on tasting it today (stored safely at a friends house). After popping the lid I am going to lose the co2 buffer and let o2 into the fermenter. Would it be worth adding a little bit of sugar water solution back into the fermenter after I close it to wake the yeast up and create more co2?

It will be fine. The O2 exposure may cause a pellicle to form but it won't hurt anything.

So no negative affect if I don't but added protection if I do?

My oud bruin started on roeselare as the primary blend is delicious at 7 months. It was delicious at 5 months. I'm just leaving it be for a while, b/c I have a number of other sour/wild beers going right now. I'm going to keg it around 10 months or so, but when I tasted it at 5, I was 100% happy.

moti_mo said:

My oud bruin started on roeselare as the primary blend is delicious at 7 months. It was delicious at 5 months. I'm just leaving it be for a while.

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Sounds like you can't keep; your hands off it!

moti_mo said:

My oud bruin started on roeselare as the primary blend is delicious at 7 months. It was delicious at 5 months. I'm just leaving it be for a while, b/c I have a number of other sour/wild beers going right now. I'm going to keg it around 10 months or so, but when I tasted it at 5, I was 100% happy.

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Do you mean that you used it for your primary fermentation? I didn't know you could do that... I would love to be able to make a sour that was nice at less than a year.

bottlebomber said:

Do you mean that you used it for your primary fermentation? I didn't know you could do that... I would love to be able to make a sour that was nice at less than a year.

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The Roeselare blend has a Belgian sacc strain. Should produce a 'Delicious' beer in several months. The poster didn't say whether it was sour.

bottlebomber said:

Do you mean that you used it for your primary fermentation? I didn't know you could do that... I would love to be able to make a sour that was nice at less than a year.

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Yes, I used only the roeselare blend for primary. After 4.5 months, it had a great sourness - not over-the-top, but really nice and for many people would have been plenty sour enough. I was tempted to keg it then (middle of March), but I'm going to give it over the summer to develop some more sour.

You can also re-pitch onto the yeast cake of this blend to get your next beer sour quicker. When I transferred mine in March, I brewed up a berliner weisse the same day. I pitched half of the berliner weisse onto the White Labs BW blend (WLP630) and the other half onto the yeast cake of my roeselare oud bruin yeast cake. I tasted both of them a month later. The half on the BW blend was not sour at all yet and tasted very average, but the half I put onto the roeselare yeast cake was very sour, and very good.

I'm brewing up another split batch again soon (maybe this weekend) and putting half onto the current yeast cake (I'll bottle the BW at that time). I'll be aging this one for a while, and adding some fruit, but I imagine it will get sour pretty quick.

FWIW, I started a thread similar to this one back in November after brewing that oud bruin. Some warned that the beer would be undrinkable or not sour at all until 1.5 - 2 years, but my experience has been similar to passedpawn, who commented that he got some good souring within a few months:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/roeselare-taste-time-table-278304/

Calder said:

Sounds like you can't keep; your hands off it!

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Yeah, I need better will power! Only tasted it twice, but I always blow out the head space with CO2. Wanna make sure I don't get any acetic acid!

I'm trying to get 3 - 4 sours going at staggered stages, so I'll have a constant pipeline and won't be tempted to tinker too much.

BTW, to the OP - did you taste yesterday? Updates are required at this point!

I have two batches in process with the Roselaire blend now. One is about 13 months old, and the other is 5 months old. Both have the same grain bill and hops, but the first was started with an Abbey yeast, on the advice that I should start with a different yeast.

I can't detect much difference in sourness, which seems to develop early. Neither one is extremely sour, which suits me, but is less desirable for some. The older one is developing a nice funkiness from the Brett.

Both were started in palstic, and then transferred to glass after krausen was over.

I am very impressed with the results of this blend, and will brew the same recipe every few months so I don't run out as soon as it's completely ready. If I can afford it, I plan to devote about 6 cornies to this style, starting a new batch every 2 months or so.

I have not tried to reuse the yeast, but Wyeast specifically says not to reuse it, as the character of the blend is not stable. They could be making sure they sell more yeast, but for a beer that's going to occupy my fermenter and corny for so long, the expense seems worth it.

So I finally cracked open the fermentor and had a taste. The beer is great! But......... not very sour. I assume I should give it more time to develop more of a sour flavor from the different strains of yeast. Will this blend ever develop a strong sour flavor? If no, can I add anything to ensure this outcome? Dregs, different yeast, etc?

thomasgorff said:

So I finally cracked open the fermentor and had a taste. The beer is great! But......... not very sour. I assume I should give it more time to develop more of a sour flavor from the different strains of yeast. Will this blend ever develop a strong sour flavor? If no, can I add anything to ensure this outcome? Dregs, different yeast, etc?

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How old is it?

I did an Oud Bruin De Table from NB with the rosalere blend from the begining. Last time I checked it was 1 yr old and was not very sour. It was more barnyard and funk I guess would be the best way to describe it. Very odd flavor.

Clann said:

I did an Oud Bruin De Table from NB with the rosalere blend from the begining. Last time I checked it was 1 yr old and was not very sour. It was more barnyard and funk I guess would be the best way to describe it. Very odd flavor.

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So you used the Rieselare exclusively?

Yes. It is what was recomended. I am still not sure if I am going to like this beer as it is my first sour and I have never even bought one to try to see if I like it before making one. It was 1 yr in the begining of April.

thomasgorff said:

So I finally cracked open the fermentor and had a taste. The beer is great! But......... not very sour. I assume I should give it more time to develop more of a sour flavor from the different strains of yeast. Will this blend ever develop a strong sour flavor? If no, can I add anything to ensure this outcome? Dregs, different yeast, etc?

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5 months is not very long. The Brett doesn't really get going until about the 6 to 8 month mark and will continue to develop flavors for 18 months and more.

Lactic acid will be produced slowly for the first year, increasing alot over the following 2 years. Any souring you have now is probably mostly acetic acid, which you want to be subdued anyway (you don't want vinegar).

I've never used the Roselaire blend, but reading peoples comments, the 'bugs' in it are not the most aggressive. You could get a few sours, and toss the dregs in. Jolly Pumpkin 'bugs' are supposed to be fairly aggressive.

I have seen a lot of comments that the Roselaire blend is "not very sour." Personally, I like it the way it comes out, but if you want more sourness, I would blend with a lambic.

That's interesting, I assumed my beer soured quickly because I used Roselare in primary, but after reading the comments above, it must have been the stepped up Jolly Pumpkin and Russian River dregs that moved it so quickly.

For those of you with beers that are not souring at all, do you remember what the IBUs are for your recipe? I cut the IBUs on my Flanders to 11 and things soured very fast - I'm wondering how big of a factor IBU levels are, since higher IBUs will inhibit most lacto development, so any souring would come from the slower pedio.

My Flanders is only 4 months old and can hold its own against any Flander red I've had, in both flavor and sourness. It's a clean sourness too, not too acetic, and has cherry pie notes in the finish. I'm very excited to be able to drink it so quickly (although I bottled half the batch to see how it develops over time).

This (bigljd's experience) is more of the experience I had, with souring occurring within the first 5 months. And as with your experience, my sour is very clean and lactic, not acetic at all. From what I've read from Wild Brews, the lactic concentration is far higher, ~10x, than the acetic concentration after ~5 months in a typical mixed fermentation. So I really don't think acetic is that prevalent, especially if you're careful to keep oxygen out of your wort after oxygenating for the sacch in the beginning. The sacch should consume this oxygen quickly, depleting it within a day or two, before the bacteria get a chance to make much acetic with it.

There are a ton of variables that likely explain all the mixed results listed in a lot of these threads. IBUs are definitely important, and keeping them low should help the bacteria thrive better. The particular mash schedule is also important. I followed Wild Brews suggestion of a turbid mash. This is supposed to leave unconverted starch for the bacteria to work on after the yeast consume the simple sugars. This could aid in quicker souring, and will also help souring over year 1 - year 2.

After tasting my first and second Oud Bruins alongside Rodenbach (which is what I would like to emulate) I find the flavor quite similar, but the body and mouthfeel disappointing. Is this a matter of how the yeast works, or should I crank up the crystal and/or other grains?

The first batch was fermented in primary with Abbey yeast and Roselaire in secondary and is 16 months old now, and the second with Roselaire only, and is a few months younger.

After tasting my first and second Oud Bruins alongside Rodenbach (which is what I would like to emulate) I find the flavor quite similar, but the body and mouthfeel disappointing. Is this a matter of how the yeast works, or should I crank up the crystal and/or other grains?

The first batch was fermented in primary with Abbey yeast and Roselaire in secondary and is 16 months old now, and the second with Roselaire only, and is a few months younger.

Hmmm...I don't know. It could be several things - final gravity of your beers compared to Rodenbach, specific grain bill, mash temperature, etc.