Need help troubleshooting 2 problems with new Brewtus 10

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Patirck

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I am trying to finish up my new brewing system and running into some last minute glitches (I hope its the last minute - I want to brew!).

I have a single tier with a BCS 460 controlling mlt and hlt burners. The burners are supplied by a standard propane tank. I got a new adjustable high pressure (0 - 40PSI) regulator to supply the three burners. I am using honeywell furnace valves with a standard needle valve between the ouput of the honeywell and the burner so I can manually adjust the flame. The HLT and MLT burner are the high pressure cast iron type bg10. The BK burner is a salvage from my old turkey fryer (BG12).

My two problems:

1. About three out of four times when I turn on the burner via the BCS, the honeywell valve does not turn on but makes a fairly loud buzzing sound. The other time it works fine. I have check the electrical connection as best I can with my el cheapo multi meter and it is getting power. I've tried recycling the power but it still seems to make the buzzing sound about twice as often as it just lights up.

2. I can't seem to get the right fuel air mixture for the burners. I get a tall sooty yellow flame with almost no blue in it. I have read the other threads about cleaning out the venturi and have done that. When I took it apart it was clean and put a pipe cleaner through both sides nothing stuck to it. I also blew it out with some canned air and took my shop vac to it. I acquired the two BG 10 burners with the stand and I'm not sure if they were used with natural gas or propane. Is there a difference? I get the same kind of flame with the BG 12 burner and I know that was used with propane. I've tried adjusting both the regulator setting and the needle valve. When I turn up the pressure from the regulator and have the needle valve wide open, the burner starts to make a hissing sound like it should and there is some blue flame but it also starts to spit flame out the side pipe where the gas connects to it.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I really want to brew this weekend. This project has taken me a lot longer than I anticipated and I'm almost out of beer!
 
AFAIK most honeywell furnace valves are designed to be run exclusively on low pressure. If you're supplying them with 40psi, I'm surprised they're working for you at all. I got rid of my BG-10 type burners and went to banjo/hurricane type specifically so I could use that type of valve to automate my system. I'm not positive, but I think you either need to use a low pressure regulator and burners, or a different type of valve. Do you have the specific model number/s of the valves you're using?
 
Honeywell VR8300A valves. I just started playing with the input pressure adjustment. This is the part with the spring that gets replaced so it can run on LP. Now it won't light at all. The pilot light operates and even though I've cranked down the pilot light adjustment as much as I can, the pilot still comes out much bigger and more forcefully than it should.
 
I am sure that Juan is correct. The honeywell valves are made to operate on 11" WC or less. In psi it is about a quarter of a pound of pressure. If you look at the original brutus build he is using a normal solenoid valve with a non-safety valve. That system works but I would not leave it unattended while you are brewing just in case the pilot goes out. Older style furnaces still use that type of set up but it is not as safe as the safety pilot systems. The reason that you are getting a yellow flame is that you are not getting enough oxygen to mix with the propane. This is because the honeywell valve also has a regulator that will drop the pressure to about 7" WC. So because the venturies on the high preasure burners are small the gas rushing past doesn't draw enough air into the mix and you get incomplete combustion. So either you need to get the low pressure burners or use a high pressure solenoid. If you get the low pressure burners you need to make sure you get the correct metered orifice for either natural gas or propane. Otherwise you are going to have mixture issues.
 
Thanks for the response.

After unhooking the burners from the gas plumbing, I discovered that there was no propane orifice in the burner. There was a 1/8" male/male nipple. Just for kicks, I hooked up the 10 (0 - 10) psi regulator that I have for the turkey fryer and the burner worked fine - almost all blue flame. I think if I get the proper orifice, it will create the proper blue flame.

As for the pressure issue with the valves, is it possible to use a smaller regulator (like the 0 - 10 psi I already have) with these three burners? How does the multiple burner on at the same time affect the required regulator pressure? I'd like to use the stuff I already own instead of buying new. I certainly won't get rid of the Honeywell valves as I like the safety feature and I already have a lot invested in them.
 
The problem is that you are mixing incompatible parts. You can't use a high pressure burner with a low pressure valve. I would see if you could return the jet burners for low pressure banjo burners. Also the jet burner doesn't use an orifice. Just the low pressure burners use one. I know it sucks but you need to pick LP or HP.
 
I just went through this. Listen to these other people. You're only supposed to supply those valves with 11-14" WC on the inlet of the gas valves, that's is .5 Psi. If you continue to run that high psi into the valves you're going to brake them. You also need low pressure orifices for your burners. I'm selling my bg12 burners and regulators on the classifieds here along with my 0-10 psi regulators because I don't think they'll put out enough btuhs at low pressure. I went with two 10 tip low pressure jet burners and they are insanely hot. I posted a video tonight to show it. They are supplied with approximately 12.3" wc low pressure propane. Their outlet pressure is about 5.5" wc. Bg12 burners running high pressure propane worked great btw. Sorry about my long rambling. Hope it helps.
 
I have a very similar setup. Using the proper size orifice will give you the proper air mixture. Search for low pressure propane to explain the difference in the pressures. Also you should be able to find the right orifice size. I bought mine from northern brewer. They have a combined valve and orifice for about 7$. I only use two burners at a time so you can step down your regulator to .5psi just look at the btu rating that the regulator can maintain. I hope this helps. Also the jet burners have orifices in each tip.
 
1. About three out of four times when I turn on the burner via the BCS, the Honeywell valve does not turn on but makes a fairly loud buzzing sound. The other time it works fine. I have checked the electrical connection as best I can with my el cheapo multi meter and it is getting power. I've tried recycling the power but it still seems to make the buzzing sound about twice as often as it just lights up.

2. I can't seem to get the right fuel air mixture for the burners. I get a tall sooty yellow flame with almost no blue in it. !

1- This is the sound of you destroying your valve. Not trying to sound like a jerk but that valve is designed to run at 11"WC =.5 PSI. If you continue to use a high pressure regulator you will certainly ruin your valves if you have not all ready.

2. You will never get the right mixture at the incorrect pressure.


Solution - You need the following

Low pressure propane orifice in your burners (contact manufacturer they have them)

Convert Honeywell valves to propane with the included cap and spring that comes with them per instructions. Tighten all the way in then back out 1 turn do not force it tight or you will damage it. The threads are plastic.

Verify your pilot burners are for low pressure propane and have the correct orifice installed.

Add the total BTU's of your three burners running on propane and acquire a low pressure propane regulator large enough to supply the BTU's you require.

**If you are not fully understanding the fundamentals of high verses low pressure I would seek professional assistance. Based on your post above I highly recommend it. Your local propane suppliers have qualified technicians that may be able to drill your existing orifices to the correct size and be able to supply you with the correct regulator.
 
Thanks everyone for the response...

I do get it but I'm in denial! It sounds like I need to replace the following:

0 -40 PSI Pressure regulator with a low pressure regulator. Are these the kind available at home depot/lowes etc?

I need to replace the burners with low pressure burners. I already have one 32 jet burner (way overkill I know). Are there alternatives to the jet burners? Should I use the 32 jet burner for a 15 gallon pot or will I end up melting it?
 
I use BG14 banjo burners on low pressure and they have more power than I need. I have the orifice sized at 75000 btu's with air wide open they burn perfect blue. That's about the max for this burner on low pressure. I use a keggle and can boil off 2 gallons an hour. Based on 75k btu per burner you will need a regulator that can supply a min of 225k btu at 11" wc. Most regulators you will find at home depot will only be rated at 60k btu at 11" wc. Go to your local propane provider to obtain the proper sized regulator or search it on- line.
 
I really like the 10" BG-14 burners also. The smaller 6" BG-12, which you said you already have one of, also works well at low pressure with a properly sized orifice. Not as powerful as the 10", but still plenty powerful enough to boil 10 gal. I can't think of any situation where you'd have all 3 burners going wide open at the same time, so a 200k btu regulator should be fine.

The jet burner you have will work too, assuming the tips are the right size, but it won't be as efficient as the banjo style, and you may have issues with flame control at lower levels. If you run a search you can find threads where people have capped off many of the tips on the 20 and 32 tip jet burners to make something a little more appropriately sized. Seems that the results have been mixed, but it might be worth looking into.
 
I am leaning towards NOT using the jet burners. I want to order the BG-14 but the Bayouclassicdepot and Amazon site says these are high pressure (http://www.bayouclassicdepot.com/bg14_cast_iron_burner.htm) Am I missing something? Is there a different orifice I need to plug in?

I found these burners on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009JXYTG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 This says high pressure as well.

These all say low pressure:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003GUAGE6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009JXYT6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0047O3PSO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

While I have nice new 15 gallon pots that I will use for 5 or 10 gallon batches. I don't envision going bigger than these anytime soon. Will the BG 12 suffice? I certainly like the price.

As for the regulator - I found this on Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046V6P08/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 - this seems like it is what I need.

I live in Los Angeles and I can't seem to find a local propane shop that seems to know what they are doing beyond filling my empty tank.
 
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You just need the proper size orifice for the BG-14 to run on low pressure. The same is true for the BG-12. If you have or buy burners with high pressure orifices, you can drill them out to the proper size rather than buying new orifices.

I've not used the BG-12 myself, but a lot of others here use them with low pressure and are able to brew 10 gal batches. Probably takes a bit longer to get to a boil though. Might be perfect for a MLT burner.

And that regulator looks good to me. Like I said earlier, unless you're running all three burners wide open at the same time, 200k btu should be plenty.
 
Is there a part number for the low pressure orifice for the BG14? Or is there a size drill bit to use to drill it out?

I'm going to go with two BG 14 and use my existing BG 12 for the MLT.
 
Thanks - I ordered the burners and the LP orifice from Brewershardware. I'm going to use the existing BG12 for my MLT and the BURN10/BG-14 for HLT and BK.

Now I hope I have not ruined the honeywell gas valves! Is there any way to check these besides seeing if they still work?
 
If they aren't venting I think that you are ok. You can get rebuild kits for most of the valves that honeywell makes. But I would think if you didn't drive the solenoid for a long time while it was stuck you should be ok.
 
So I have the new burners and orifices installed. I have only had a chance to try the boil kettle so far that does not have any automation - just a needle valve. The pilot light fires up just fine but when I turn the needle valve, gas comes out in sort of a burst and then goes out, like the propane tank is empty. Any suggestions?

I also found that the orifices I ordered from brewers hardware won't fit my BG 12. I only see low pressure orifices that are 1/4" on bayouclassicdepot (these: http://www.bayouclassicdepot.com/617-90-degree-male-flare-burner-brass-fitting.htm) But I don't think they are low pressure. I've looked, googled, amazoned and can't find anything that says it is for low pressure.
 
Needle valves are for HP you should just use the valve on the orifice that you go from Brewers. You need more volume then the needle valve can provide.

With the orifice you can drill them out to the correct size. If you know a plumber or a HVAC person they should have a set of thumb drills and a sizing chart. They just need to match the size of the orifice to the pressure and output btu.

Also two things that you need to keep in mind about the Honeywell valve you speck is that it also has a reg in it. They come from the factory set at 3.5" WC. I would recommend that you you adjust it so you are seeing 7" WC after the valve. Did the orifice have any info on it or included with it on or in the package? If it lists a recommended WC go with that. The second thing you need to remember about the valve is that it will come set-up from the factory for Natural gas you need to install the LP spring and cap.
 
Needle valves are for HP you should just use the valve on the orifice that you go from Brewers. You need more volume then the needle valve can provide.

With the orifice you can drill them out to the correct size. If you know a plumber or a HVAC person they should have a set of thumb drills and a sizing chart. They just need to match the size of the orifice to the pressure and output btu.

Also two things that you need to keep in mind about the Honeywell valve you speck is that it also has a reg in it. They come from the factory set at 3.5" WC. I would recommend that you you adjust it so you are seeing 7" WC after the valve. Did the orifice have any info on it or included with it on or in the package? If it lists a recommended WC go with that. The second thing you need to remember about the valve is that it will come set-up from the factory for Natural gas you need to install the LP spring and cap.


Thanks for the info.

I already installed the LP spring and cap on the honeywell valves. I have yet to try them. What I did try was the non controlled boil kettle burner. This is where I have the low and then no flame. I don't have the right set of fittings on hand to take the needle valve out of the plumbing. Perhaps I'll get an adapter and see what happens. For the time being, if I open the needle valve all the way, will it provide enough flow?
 
Nope not at all. You need to get rid of it all together. Ideally you would run 1/2" black pipe as far as you can then transition to the CST for as short a run as possible.
 
OK - so I tried removing the needle valve and it didn't make a difference. Then I deciced that perhaps I should try a different regulator. So I went to one home depot and they were out of them. I then tried a different home depot - they were out too! So I went to osh and bought one - both of the big burners work but the BG 12 does not. I need to order the special orifice mentioned earlier and give it a whirl. I am considering just getting another big burner for the mlt - not necessary but not a whole lot more money either.
 
It's pretty easy to just drill out the high pressure orifice if you have a set of wire size bits. To really get it matched well for your system, you'll want to start small and sneak your way up to the final size. Start with a 1/16" or size 52, and see how it performs. Slowly increase the size until the flames have slight yellow tips.
 
I was thinking that if you used Teflon tape to put your piping together. That could be the issue. You shouldn't use Teflon tape for gas pipe you should use pipe dope. I use the yellow #5 for all my threads when I do black pipe.

Also if you can get your hands on a manometer you can do a static test. You can find a spot that you can attach the manometer. Take a measurement with the burner off. Then fire the burner take a reading with the burner running. Your readings should be pretty close together if the reg is keeping up. If it dips too much you might have a bit of dirt or tape in the reg.
 
I"m using the yellow teflon tape for gas on all the black pipe and brass fittings. I want to do a performance test and see how long it takes to heat up plain water. The big burners have a strong flame now with yellow tips (I adjusted the air mixture) but they seem pretty low.
 
I just got everything together. I heated up 11.25 gallons of water from 65 to boiling in 80 minutes. It seems to me it should do this faster. I have a nice blue flame with yellow tips that are barely there (99% blue flame).

Is this what other people experience with the larger banjo burners and low pressure propane?
 
I don't have a way to check the pressure (unless there is some trick you can share). The shutter is fully open. How long should it take to bring 11ish gallons of water from 65ish to boil?
 
I don't have a way to check the pressure (unless there is some trick you can share). The shutter is fully open. How long should it take to bring 11ish gallons of water from 65ish to boil?

Less than 80 min. You said you have the LP spring and cap screw installed right? It's easy enough to make a simple u type manometer to measure the pressure using some plastic tubing, a ruler, and some scrap wood. Without a manometer, you can use the valves NG to LP conversion instructions to get the pressure pretty close to 10" WC, which IMO would be a decent place to start. Here's an excerpt-

Honeywell said:
VR8200 and VR4200 gas controls can be converted
from one gas to another. To convert from natural gas to LP,
use the 393691 LP Conversion Kit that is included with the
gas control. To convert from LP to natural gas, use the
394588 Natural Gas Conversion Kit (ordered separately).
VR8200C,P and VR4200C,P gas controls cannot be converted.
To convert control from one gas to another:
1. Turn off main gas supply to the appliance.
2. Remove the regulator cap screw and pressure regulator
adjusting screw. See Fig. 2 or 3.
3. Remove the existing spring.
4. Insert the replacement spring with the tapered end
down. See Fig. 4.
5. Install the new plastic pressure regulator adjustment
screw so that the top of the screw is flush (level) with the top
of the regulator. Turn the pressure regulator adjustment
screw clockwise six complete turns. This provides a
preliminary pressure setting of about 10.0 in. wc

Eidt: Here's an example of a simple manometer-

http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/manometer/
 
I'm going to make a manometer - I had no idea it was that simple. I am picking up the third banjo burner today as well as a regulator designed for this setup (all from brewers hardware).

Thanks for the help!
 
I made a manometer using 1/2" vinyl tube taped to some scrap wood. I installed the new regulator I purchased from brewershardware. The new regulator isinterestingly enough is the same exact model I happened upon in a local RV store trying to piece this together after learning about low pressure vs. high pressure - this is the one that I swapped out for a BBQ regulator from osh and it worked although a bit slow.

The manometer (my wife loves this term), shoots up to 8 - 9 inches then starts coming down and settles in at 6.5 inches. This is after turning the adjustment screw on the honeywell valve in as far as it will go.

I think the spike in pressure is probably just from the valve turning quickly. I'm betting that the 6.5" is what matters here. There is no adjustment on the regulator and I can't figure out where to go from here. It works but it is taking a long time to heat stuff up - longer than it should.

Any other way of testing the honeywell valves? Any other settings anywhere on these honeywell valves?
 
You can't unscrew the black cap? Also you need to do the flow test before the honeywell valves. You take a measurement with out the burners running then light them one at a time. Make sure you don't drop below 7 in.

Also how many btu is the regulator rated for? Honesty looks like that hose is way too small to carry enough gas to supply 225k btu
 
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