Want to roll on a Gulden Draak type brew

I've loved this beer since the first time I saw it, let alone tasting it. I never even considered making it until now. Despite my brewery name, I tended to steer more towards the German side of my heritage than the Belgian when it came to beer taste. However, I have recently acquired quite a taste for sour beers and some of the darker belgians. So I'm ready for my Gulden Draak adventure. And I really want to work on my ability to brew larger beers after an epic near-fail on my barleywine brewday. So here's what I'm thinking for the recipie, it wasn't an easy one to find information on.

10.5# 2-Row Belgian Pilsner Malt
4.5# 2-Row Belgian Pale Malt
1.25# German Wheat Malt
1# 60L Crystal
.3# Belgian Aromatic
.25# Caramunich Malt
.2# Biscuit

1oz Brewer's Gold 60 min
.3oz Styrian Goldings 15 minutes

Thinking a low mash...also not something I've done a lot of. Is 150* low enough to give me a good dry ferment? Any advice would be well received.

Overall it looks ok, but I taste loads of dark fruit in Gulden Draak and most Bel Dark Strong have candi sugar in 'em to dry it out some and boost the ABV, my grainbill would probably look more like this:

11# Pilsner (Bel)
5# 2-row (Bel)
1# Wheat malt (Bel)
1# Candi Sugar (Amber)
6 oz Crystal 60
4 oz Special B
3.5 oz Aromatic
2 oz Biscuit

IMO. YRMV. HAND.

Yo bro...Have you seen the Beertools clone recipe?

BeerTools.com Recipe Library - Gulden Draak clone

In Clone Brews by Szamatulski there is a recipe for Gulden Draak:

5 gal
OG 1.104-09
FG 1.020-26
IBU 26
SRM 21
10.5% ABV

9 lbs Belgian 2 row pilsner
4 lbs Belgian 2 row pale
1 lbs German Wheat
14 oz 65 L German Crystal
4 oz Belgian Aromatic
3 oz Belgian Cara-Munich
2 oz Belgian Biscuit

Mash at 150 for 90 min
Boil 90 min

.72 oz Brewers Gold at 9%AA at 90
.25 oz Styrian Goldings at 15
1 tsp Irish Moss at 15

It also has two yeast choices:
Optimal is Wyeasts 1388 Belgian Strong ale
Second is Wyeasts' 3787 Trappist High Grav Ale
both ferm between 70-73*


Hope this helps in your quest. I've always loved this beer. Let us know how it turns out for sure!

Golden Draak is a lovely choice.

Question. Does anyone know why all these Belgian recipes calls for "Pilsner" malt as the base? Golden Draak is going to be dark anyway, why not use 2-row? Just curious...

I did wonder about that as well...

I suspect they use Pilsener because of the flavor. Next time you go to the brew store, taste some 2-row, them some Pilsener. I can taste a difference in the store, but I don't know if can in a finished beer.

So here it is...my first step on a golden road to a great beer...the best starter I ever made, as it came with a tasty treat!

And it's in the making. Just started the boil after my first ever fly sparge. I'm still not convinced about this fly sparging thing....I'll have to hone it in a little more. End of brewday update to come.

You do know that Brouwerij Van Steenberge uses a different strain in their bottles than they ferment with don't you?

I found two sources online that told me otherwise...I really hope this isn't true, I fed that thing four times and spent a week making it! Hmm...If it is true I don't know what I'll do...but I was going to make a big Cal Ale V starter to refeed my barleywine, maybe I'll do a "house blend" of yeast cultures...

TerapinChef said:

I found two sources online that told me otherwise...I really hope this isn't true, I fed that thing four times and spent a week making it! Hmm...If it is true I don't know what I'll do...but I was going to make a big Cal Ale V starter to refeed my barleywine, maybe I'll do a "house blend" of yeast cultures...

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I found it all over the Global Beer Network(the distrubitor)/Brouwerij Van Steenberge Site,

Global Beer Network

A little note for the home-brewers: the yeast that you find on the bottom of the bottle is NOT the yeast, used for the main and first fermentation. This yeast is the secret and the most valuable asset of the brewer's recipe.

The bottle conditioning is also used for our Augustijn Abbey Ale, our famous Piraat and Gulden Draak, and our Flaxhead (Vlaskop) and Wooden Head (the Houten Kop). ...

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It's still gonna be a Belgian Yeast, and it will Taste like GD....but it won't be dead on to the strain...it should be fine.

Revvy said:

I found it all over the Global Beer Network(the distrubitor)/Brouwerij Van Steenberge Site,

Global Beer Network



It's still gonna be a Belgian Yeast, and it will Taste like GD....but it won't be dead on to the strain...it should be fine.

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Are you sure it'll be a Belgian strain?

I would smell your starter. A lot of times they'll use something else, something that ferments totally clean like a champagne yeast or even a neutral beer yeast so the profile of the original isn't effected.

carnevoodoo said:

Are you sure it'll be a Belgian strain?

I would smell your starter. A lot of times they'll use something else, something that ferments totally clean like a champagne yeast or even a neutral beer yeast so the profile of the original isn't effected.

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Well...it will be a strain of yeast, put into a beer in belgium so technically it will be a Belgian strain....

I'd still use the starter you made Terrapin....

No other choice at this point, unless I run to LHBS and buy about three vials of something else...

TerapinChef said:

No other choice at this point, unless I run to LHBS and buy about three vials of something else...

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Nah...Just do it.

TerapinChef said:

No other choice at this point, unless I run to LHBS and buy about three vials of something else...

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Well, what does your starter smell like?

I also have a starter of G.D. and of Piraat, but with the expensive grain bill I decided to use WLP500. I used WLP500 in my Piraat clone. I love Gulden Draak, but Piraat had a little more complex flavor. I hope you get the spiciness that the right yeast imparts. The first few weeks of tasting was "Damn I HATE banana beer." After a couple weeks the banana went away to be replaced by spicy, green apple complexity. Now I'm dying to drink some good hi grav beer. Only 6-10 months to wait.

Well, whatever was in that Gulden Draak bottle is fermenting my clone.

OG 1.096
IBU 26.9
Color 24.3
Yield = just short of 6 gallons.

Your brew specs look pretty good. If the yeast pans out you should have a tasty brew. Give it some extra time if you don't like it at first. I've noticed the Belgian yeasts change flavor more than other strains.

I'm sure no matter what it is going to be fantastic...even if it's not a direct clone because of the yeast...

I expect to get to taste this when it's ready my friend.

So here's the update...after a week I had no signs of fermentation. Just a nasty looking kind of pellicle forming. I was swirling for a few days, so it never got a chance to build up, but I was really trying to get those first yeasties going. So I made a nice big starter of WLP530, and after a full 6 days of no fermentation pitched this. Now, 24 hours later, I've got a good full krausen and plenty of bubbling going. Going to need some help later to figure out what, if anything, this beer may have become infected with, but i think it might be a while. Unfortunately, my digital camera was out on loan to SWMBO's sister the whole time, so I didn't get any good pictures pre-desired fermentation. Cross your fingers for me!

Still bubbling heavy with a 3" krausen over a week after first signs of fermentation. Afraid to take a sample as I don't want to punch through the rocky heads

Any updates?

Actually, I have an update on my dark strong recipe I put up earlier in this thread (which is as follows):

11# Pilsner (Bel)
5# 2-row (Bel)
1# Wheat malt (Bel)
6 oz Crystal 60
4 oz Special B
3.5 oz Aromatic
2 oz Biscuit

1# cane sugar was added on the 3rd day of fermentation. OG with the cane added in was 1.089.

I pitched this on a cake of WLP550 from a Belgian pale ale I had just done, and I just bottled it yesterday. The FG was 1.014, 10% abv. This was WAAAY lower than I expected it to go, beersmith had it estimated at a 1.020 FG. I figured this was due to my 148F 90min mash. Taste at bottling was great for a half-second, until the strong alcohol taste came in, then it makes you shudder. This is to be expected of course, as it is a 10% quite dry beer at 1.014 that's only 2 months old. I will report back when I open one of these guys (which will probably be around my birthday, November)

So I went through all of this trouble, made this beer (which came out pretty good) and decided that due mostly to a lack of bottles and an overabundance of kegs, this would be my first kegged beer. So I read up a bit, set my regulator to about 11 psi, and let er rip. I shook it every day, hearing the air hiss satisfyingly into my beer. After about a week, I didn't really hear air hissing into my beer anymore. Thinking that kegging is supposed to be so much better/faster than bottling, I took this to mean that it was done. Drew off a few tasty pints, carbonated a bit low but I didn't want this to be quite as fizzy as one would expect. So I proceeded to BMBF the whole batch, having freed up a few bottles in this time. Now I'm finding that only about 1/4 of the bottles are carbonated, and this should have sat on gas for at least another week or two. Serves me right..

Bit of another update on this: I opened the first one of the batch last night to try 'er out, here's the results. (two posts up is the recipe I used)

Aroma: Spot Bloody on, smells just like a gulden draak, spicy, estery and malty goodness.
Appearance: Two finger head that slowly dissipates to a 1/4 inch, but provides great lacing all the way down. Color is a deep copper, too light for gulden draak, but very pleasing looking.
Mouthfeel: Seems a tad thinner than Gulden Draak, next time I will mash a tad higher
so it doesn't end up quite as dry.
Taste: Next time I'll do a side-by-side, tasted pretty spot on, other than being a little spicier and drier than I remember.
Overall: Very tasty, I will brew again, but with a few corrections; mashing higher, and using a frutier yeast, maybe 500 or 530

Not sure if you got any of the fruity flavor that turned up in mine, which I was really looking to accentuate. I had a local homebrew guru (not to drop names for you MI people, but it was Fred Bonjour) taste this and he said I needed to mash lower and get it to dry out a bit more. Mine ended at about 1030. So maybe if we both brew the same thing, then blend them after about a year or so, we'll be looking really good! 150 was way too high in retrospect, I was looking to hit around 1020 or so...

TerapinChef said:

Not sure if you got any of the fruity flavor that turned up in mine, which I was really looking to accentuate. I had a local homebrew guru (not to drop names for you MI people, but it was Fred Bonjour) taste this and he said I needed to mash lower and get it to dry out a bit more. Mine ended at about 1030. So maybe if we both brew the same thing, then blend them after about a year or so, we'll be looking really good! 150 was way too high in retrospect, I was looking to hit around 1020 or so...

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Yeah, mine dried up to 1.014, and that was with a 148ish mash. The key is yeast health, I pitched on a huuuuuge yeast cake.

TerapinChef said:

Not sure if you got any of the fruity flavor that turned up in mine, which I was really looking to accentuate. I had a local homebrew guru (not to drop names for you MI people, but it was Fred Bonjour) taste this and he said I needed to mash lower and get it to dry out a bit more. Mine ended at about 1030. So maybe if we both brew the same thing, then blend them after about a year or so, we'll be looking really good! 150 was way too high in retrospect, I was looking to hit around 1020 or so...

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Yeah, but I still thought it was an excellant beer.

And yes FB rocks...He liked my Belgian Dark Stong.

So after doing a side by side tasting of the Real Deal and the HB'd version here's what I got.
AROMA
GD: smells of raisins, caramel, brown sugar
TC: Peach, slight hay aroma.
APPEARANCE
GD: Deep deep brown. good thick head pale brown in color.
TC: Head similar color, dissapating quicker. WAY TOO LIGHT. This thing is nowhere near 24 SRM, maybe 1/2 that?
FLAVOR
GD: Prune, caramel, plum, fairly sweet on pallette. Not as dry as I expected. Finishes with a touch of acidity.
TC: Light peach comes through, hopped more noticably than original. Slightly bready, a hint of malt. Too thin in comparison, and too dry as well.
MOUTHFEEL
GD: Mouthfeel is thick, creamy, and coating.
TC: Dry, thin, clean
OVERALL IMPRESSION
GD: Thick, sweet, a good "single drinker" Good balance between roast/crystal and sweetness. A bit of creme brulee flavor leaves me wanting more, and carbonation, I feel, is very low for style.
TC: Thin, but dry to balance. Good carbonation (in this bottle) really delivers the flavors of bread and fruit well.

SO basically although it wasn't a golden Drak clone, it was a nice belgian beer.

BTW guys, we are pretty sure the Wyeast 3739-PC Flanders Golden Ale strain that was released this summer is their primary yeast.

Revvy, you made a comment about different yeast in the bottle than regular fermentation...explain please

PC

pcameron92 said:

Revvy, you made a comment about different yeast in the bottle than regular fermentation...explain please

PC

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I know I am not Revvy but I was doing some research on the subject and thought I would share what I learned. Many breweries that bottle condition will bottle with a different strain of yeast to carb their beer. I'm pretty sure it's because the alcohol content of the finished product is more than their primary strain can work in. They will usually bottle with a yeast strain that can work at a higher alcohol concentration. It's good to find out if the beer you are harvesting from uses a different bottling strain because usually harvesting from a bottled beer is done because a brewer wants to have a similar yeast profile to the original.

ajohnson153 said:

I know I am not Revvy but I was doing some research on the subject and thought I would share what I learned. Many breweries that bottle condition will bottle with a different strain of yeast to carb their beer. I'm pretty sure it's because the alcohol content of the finished product is more than their primary strain can work in. They will usually bottle with a yeast strain that can work at a higher alcohol concentration. It's good to find out if the beer you are harvesting from uses a different bottling strain because usually harvesting from a bottled beer is done because a brewer wants to have a similar yeast profile to the original.

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Good thoughts, but false.

The reason certain Belgian breweries use a different strain of yeast to bottle condition their beers, is so that their exact beers cannot be replicated by anyone (homebrewers, but more importantly, other breweries). Many of these Belgian breweries have been using the same "secret" yeasts for thousands of years, and they believe that these strains are the secret to their success.

Keeping their private strains of yeast out of the hands of the public guarantee that nobody else will be replicating their identical beers. Basically just insuring their livelihood in the future..

Looper said:

Good thoughts, but false.

The reason certain Belgian breweries use a different strain of yeast to bottle condition their beers, is so that their exact beers cannot be replicated by anyone (homebrewers, but more importantly, other breweries). Many of these Belgian breweries have been using the same "secret" yeasts for thousands of years, and they believe that these strains are the secret to their success.

Keeping their private strains of yeast out of the hands of the public guarantee that nobody else will be replicating their identical beers. Basically just insuring their livelihood in the future..

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There are several other reasons, such as the primary strain is a poor attenuator, the bottling strain adds a different flavor component as the beer ages, less yeast bite in the bottling strain, etc.

However, preserving the secret of the primary strain is certainly the most common.

Looper said:

The reason certain Belgian breweries use a different strain of yeast to bottle condition their beers, is so that their exact beers cannot be replicated by anyone (homebrewers, but more importantly, other breweries). Many of these Belgian breweries have been using the same "secret" yeasts for thousands of years, and they believe that these strains are the secret to their success.

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA-You moron.

You mean you used your first post to necro a thread that's been dead for 2 years to call someone a moron? Really?

Revvy said:

You mean you used your first post to necro a thread that's been dead for 2 years to call someone a moron? Really?

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+1

Way to win friends and influence people.....not.