WLP644 -Brett B Trois

I did a cell count of a new vial and an 8 day 500mL starter on a stirplate.

The new vial had 8.65 Billion cells and the starter had 150 Billion cells

New vial (click to enlarge):


500mL starter (click to enlarge):


You can see the morphology change once it's put into a starter. Some of the cells start to chain together and elongate. It also had incredible growth, a sacch strain would grow to ~60 Billion under the same conditions.

dstar26t said:

I did a cell count of a new vial and an 8 day 500mL starter on a stirplate.

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What OG did your starter have?

1.035

You got over 15X growth on a half liter starter? That just seems like a whole lot.

I didn't monitor the growth over the entire 8 days but Chad Y. has talked about Brett going through up to 3 growth phases in 1 starter. It also makes sense considering when people pitch it like sacch from a 1 or 2 liter starter, even though the cell count in 1 vial is extremely low, fermentation is still vigorous.

The amount of yeast in the vial is visibly minuscule. Yet the resultant yeast cake produced in my 1.5L starter was completely on par with a sacc. strain starter from one vial. That's just anecdotal info, but therefore I don't have a hard time believing dstar's results.

Chad Y. got slightly more growth with the Drie strain from a 500 mL propagation...25 Billion up to 450 Billion, 17 doublings vs. my 16.3. My starter was at 24C and his was 28C.

http://www.brettanomycesproject.com/dissertation/propagation-and-batch-culture-growth/propagation-results/

JLem said:

Mike - I am 2 weeks into my fermentation and am at 73% attenuation. I started at 1.045, after 5 days I was down to 1.020, and now, after 14 days, I am at 1.012. I started the fermentation at 70°F. After taking a reading on day 5 I ramped it up to 75°F. I am hoping it will drop another several points to 1.010 at least. I'd feel better at 1.008.

Aroma and taste are tending towards ripe tropical fruit. Perhaps less crisp than it was at my last sampling on day 5.

Here's a pic of how things look in the fermenter (Day 14):

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Well, I'm 3 weeks in and I'm still sitting at 1.012ish (maybe 1.011). Looks like it isn't dropping much more, at least not quickly. I'm going to let it go until the end of the week, dry hop, and then bottle it sometime next week (assuming everything continues on its current course).

At 2 weeks in the primary I went from 1.058 to 1.008 (86% attenuation). I don't have a fridge temp control, but I submerged the Carboy in an ice chest with water and was able to maintain temp between 65 and 70 degrees

I will be pulling 2 gallons of Belgian Golden Strong Ale I'm brewing today to try the Brett Trois out. Looking forward to the results. :fro:

JLem said:

Well, I'm 3 weeks in and I'm still sitting at 1.012ish (maybe 1.011). Looks like it isn't dropping much more, at least not quickly. I'm going to let it go until the end of the week, dry hop, and then bottle it sometime next week (assuming everything continues on its current course).

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I've not tried the trois, but in my experience the attenuation of Brett-B varies a lot from batch to batch, when using the same yeast (harvesting from batch to batch), and the same, or similar recipe. I've had anywhere from 65% to 85%, and can't figure out the differences.

My latest Brett beer (I'm talking about all-brett beers), went about 70% and seemed to stop. I racked it off the yeast after 2 weeks into a glass carboy. It is now at 12 weeks with a big pellicle. I've not tasted or tested it since the 2 week mark, and it is the first all-brett beer I've made to get a decent pellicle (others have had a film).

After racking my first batch onto fruit in secondary, I refilled my vial with yeast for future use. I also set aside the remaining slurry, and immediately brewed a porter that same day. The porter recipe is a real hodgepodge of ingredients from when I packed up all my specialty grains and hops as kits last fall for the move to China. So I coined it my Beggar's Porter. I decided to use this one for the Brett based on what I considered an English style fruitiness in my pale/blond at racking time. I steeped the dark grains and crystal separately in 2 changes of 3L water and added that at 15 minutes left in the boil (1st time with that technique. Really like it. No astringency at all.) Mash was at 152F. OG 1.052. Pitched about 250-300mL of slurry at 64F. Within hours it was up to 70F. 12 hours later had a full, frothing brown kreusen and was 85F in a room with AC set to 72. 24 hrs in read 1.023 and up to 85 degrees. 48 hours later no kreusen at all and 1.018. So once again, a violent first couple days. With Sacch yeasts, if I pitch at 64 and keep the AC on in that room, they normally won't hit 70 until sometime after 24 hours. English and American strains have stayed below 72 for the duration. WLP550 has continued to the upper 70s though. But nothing acts like the Brett has. I went ahead and racked to a keg where it can happily live out the next few weeks without me pestering it, and allowing me to brew again this weekend. A few days later when I actually got around to cleaning the kettle which was my primary, a pellicle had formed on the surface of the 3L remaining in it. It had a very high alcohol smell to it. Nothing at all like the day I racked it. I plan to tap it for a taste around 6 weeks and decide then if to dry hop it with something English and serve or let it ride longer. That original batch never got crazy active again with the fruit addition. It's active, but CO2 bubbles slowly form on the fruit surfaces. No pellicle has formed.

I stepped a vial of this up for three weeks and pitch it into a BW that had a 2 day lacto head start and a full pellicle. This stuff got active in a hurry. I had raging ferm in like 4 hours at about 68 deg. This is probably one of the most aggressive brett strains I've ever used.

Made a 1L starter on Monday and topped it off with 500ml of fresh wort on Thursday, all while on the stirplate. Brewing a Table saison tomorrow gonna hit about 4 gallons with this 1.5L starter, 2 gallons getting ECY20 and the rest (15 gallon batch 1.045 SG) to get 2nd generation WLP565.

But Im most excited to see how the 644 version comes out.

I just made a 1600 ml starter of ECY09 and Brett B Trois. Can't wait to brew this beer tomorrow.

Finally got my Brett trios 100% APA started. Starter 1 week. 8 hr post pitching and it going great. Citra and cent smells great thinking about dry hopping but not sure if it wil hide the Brett favor. Not sure if the citra/cent will also. Made should have started with a saison? Will see in a month.

JNEL73 said:

Finally got my Brett trios 100% APA started. Starter 1 week. 8 hr post pitching and it going great. Citra and cent smells great thinking about dry hopping but not sure if it wil hide the Brett favor. Not sure if the citra/cent will also. Made should have started with a saison? Will see in a month.

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I was thinking about using this strain with a Galaxy/Centennial APA. Be sure to post back with results!

Did you aerate? And how large of a starter?

Is this still in stock anywhere?

Just ordered it from highgravity brew. looking forward to an all brett sasion

AmandaK said:

I was thinking about using this strain with a Galaxy/Centennial APA. Be sure to post back with results!

Did you aerate? And how large of a starter?

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Ha, combined the two into a galaxy/citra/centennial ipa. Will be dry hopping in a few weeks.

Johnnyhitch1 said:

Just ordered it from highgravity brew. looking forward to an all brett sasion

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Thanks for the tip, glad someone still has it in stock.

Non-sarcastic question: if it's a 100% Brett fermented beer, what would make it a saison?

I've often debated what to call an All Brett beer, since they're not really sour beers and not technically wild ales. Farmhouse ale seems appropriate, as the end beer is similar to a saison, but I think "farmhouse ale" is a broader term than saison, which is specific to a beer with saison yeast, as far as I know.

One thing I have just noticed in my latest Table Saison with 100% Brett is how clean the fermentation profile turned out. The beer was mashed at 148 with 20% rolled oats. This beer fermented from 1.044 down to 1.000 in about a week. I am thinking that without very many complex sugars (from a higher mash temp or crystal malts) that the Brett does not produce the same esters. This is just one data point, but I'd like to hear how others do with this yeast in a Saison.

I'll give an update as this beer progresses.

AmandaK said:

I was thinking about using this strain with a Galaxy/Centennial APA. Be sure to post back with results!

Did you aerate? And how large of a starter?

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1liter starter and aerated but old school rocking and rolling til tired. Will update once results are in smells great but makes me sad all those aromatic leaving the beer

My starter was 1600 ml with 1 vial of East Coast Yeast 09 - Belgian Abbaye and 1 vial of Brett B Trois. I arrested the starter (on stirplate) at 10 hours to crash chill. It was really tart. My guess is that it had less to do with the yeast and more to do with the fact that I stopped the fermentation before it was done. Acetyaldehyde & fusels are my guess as to why.

Almighty said:

One thing I have just noticed in my latest Table Saison with 100% Brett is how clean the fermentation profile turned out. The beer was mashed at 148 with 20% rolled oats. This beer fermented from 1.044 down to 1.000 in about a week. I am thinking that without very many complex sugars (from a higher mash temp or crystal malts) that the Brett does not produce the same esters. This is just one data point, but I'd like to hear how others do with this yeast in a Saison.

I'll give an update as this beer progresses.

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Well your beer sounds similar to mine, 1.045 Saison base Pils Munich and Wheat mashed at 148-49. Im thinking about hitting it with some Maltodextrin, just a very little bit to add body/ complex sugars for the brett to work on. The problem with that is Im worried I'll have to wait longer to bottle, and maybe Im better off leaving it alone.

Coff - For research purposes it would be great if you could leave out the maltodextrin and taste this beer at 2 weeks and see if you get the clean flavors I experienced. After that maybe you could bottle with maltodextrin.

I decided to dry-hop half of the batch with 2 oz of HBC342 hops and then bottle the other half straight to see how it will develop.

Im going to leave it as is, maybe rack to a gallon jug with some malto as an experiment.

With our beers being similar maybe there is a trade in our future for further research.

Before I pitched my starter I refilled the vial, it's settles and has a very nice clean bit of yeast at the bottom, many more cells then the original vial. I plan to do the same everytime with this strain.

othellomcbane said:

Thanks for the tip, glad someone still has it in stock.

Non-sarcastic question: if it's a 100% Brett fermented beer, what would make it a saison?

I've often debated what to call an All Brett beer, since they're not really sour beers and not technically wild ales. Farmhouse ale seems appropriate, as the end beer is similar to a saison, but I think "farmhouse ale" is a broader term than saison, which is specific to a beer with saison yeast, as far as I know.

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Isn't the first question, what is a saison? Is it a style or brewing technique? Maybe it's a bit of both.

I don't think of all brett beers as a saison because they don't have that same dry, rustic character to them. However, you could probably call it a saison if it is built like a saison but with different yeast. Lots of breweries call brett beers "wild ales" which I also don't think is very accurate.

Is there a problem just calling it an all brett beer?

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Isn't the first question, what is a saison? Is it a style or brewing technique? Maybe it's a bit of both.

I don't think of all brett beers as a saison because they don't have that same dry, rustic character to them. However, you could probably call it a saison if it is built like a saison but with different yeast. Lots of breweries call brett beers "wild ales" which I also don't think is very accurate.

Is there a problem just calling it an all brett beer?

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Yeah, the beer world has struggled so far to come up with good genre terms for contemporary sour and Brett beers. I like "all Brett" or "100% Brett", maybe with a modifier after that like "100% Brett Farmhouse ale" or "100% Brett Belgian golden ale." I guess saison does work, and a lot of saisons are 'finished' with Brett anyway. Reading the BJCP guidelines again, it is a pretty loosely defined style.

Finally got around to bottling my batch after dry hopping with some Motueka and EKG.. FG held steady at 1.011ish. Am still concerned that the Brett will take it lower, so primed for slightly less carbonation. Can't wait to see how this turns out in a few weeks.

IPA is kegged, 1.058 to 1.010, 70% belgian pils, 26% flaked wheat, 4 % C75. Mashed 152F. Nice, dry, hoppy. Real winner. Not sure where the Trois is here, but I think it only helps with all the hops I used.

Next time ill make a low gravity saison with spicy hops and let the yeast provide the fruit. This grist was nice, but could be a touch darker.

Hey guys...
Awesome thread!
Here's what I got going on...Brewed 2 days ago...
Got 5 gallons of all brett B fermenting right now, at a steady 71....
What temps are you guys fermenting at? how long? Im planning on at least a month primary...secondary for 3 months?
Gravity is 1.063..
I used 90% dingermans b pils, rolled oats, carapils and sugar, to make up the rest. mashed @ 149....basic saison recipe..
btw, I used 2 vials with a stepped up starter for 8 days..Went to White labs and got some super fresh vials..returned 50 vials and got 2 vials of 644(and 3 yeast vouchers) of yeast for free...I'm keeping a vial for later use..exp date 1/13...anybody use this strain for bottle conditioning yet?

Any updates??

Igotsand

Just bottled mine today! Smells very tropical and goes well with the citra dry hopping

Ok, an unintentional experiment happened for me. I brewed a 1.072 Golden Strong last Sunday. As mentioned in an earlier thread,I pitched a 1600 ml starter of 1 vial Brett B Trois and 1 vial of East Coast Yeast 09 blend. As fate might have it, my temp controller was set for 64F. My controller geeked out and the next morning I found the beer fermenting at 55F! I doubt the Belgian Sac strain could do this so I'm guessing that the Brett was indeed fermenting at a lager temp. I quickly got the temp up to 70 and have been raising it daily. It's at it's max temp of 82 right now. It seems as though the ECY09 has flocc'd out but there is still swirling in the carboy and the krausen is gone (no pellicle.). It has a delightful fruity aroma and a touch of spiciness. I cannot wait until this beer finishes.

I wanted to test the temperature dependence of this yeast. I just brewed a 1.060 Spelt Saison - 80% Pilsner, 16% Spelt, 4% Acid Malt. I have 2 -1 gal containers with the Brett in both. One will be fermented in the fridge at 63-65 and the other will get a typical Saison fermentation ramp, 75 up to 85 by the end of the week.

Both are active this morning - I'll post later with results.

Love this thread...
6/16/12 I brewed a 1.064 6#Pils 4#Malted Wheat with 1#Rolled Oats @153 with 3 yr. old aged homegrown Mt. Hood hops. No starter was made, but I did aerate when I pitched the vial.It's still chugging along (secondary @ ambient temps) sample coming soon.

Trois seems to be a slow flocculator. I'm at 2 weeks and 1 day...OG of 1.072 has been eaten down to 1.009. The beer is still quite cloudy and I can see slow swirling in there. Powerful yeast beasts!

mhenry41h - It is a very slow flocculator. I would suggest cold crashing and using gelatin (or you favorite fining agent). I racked me beer from carboy to dry-hop keg to serving keg with gelatin and cold crashing and then it finally got pretty clear after about a week in the keg.

Yea I was noticing the same thing when I took a look at my batch fermenting with 644, its super cloudy, where as the other half of the same wort with 565 is pretty clear.

I'm brewing 16 gal of saison today. Of that 16 gal 8 gal is destined for a 100% Trois fermentation. The other 8 gallons is a hodge podge of bottle sediment from various sours and various cultures. It will be populated with pedio/lacto/brett of various species/and some sacch. I did a sour saison about 9 months ago and I love how it came out with the slight hop bitterness and hop flavor with the lactic sourness. Hopefully this Trois fermentation finishes dry like my normal saisons. If not I'll just combine it with the sour portion in one of my 16 gallon speidel fermentors and have a butt load of sour beer.