Estimating ABV using Brix refractometer

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JimGossett

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I've been working on a web-based calculator to estimate %ABV from initial and final Brix. Yes, there are polynomials that allow OG and FG to be estimated from initial and final Brix, and then one can use one of the many equations to estimate %ABV from OG and FG. But that seems circuitous. You're converting one indirect measure of carbohydrate content to another. Plus, I never see anyone evaluate the resulting accuracy. That was my motivation. Check it out here, if you're interested:

http://www.ithacoin.com/brewing/ABV_calc_frontpage.htm

== Jim
 
Fwiw, I gave this a try just for yucks. I used data from a recent brew that I checked at each phase with both a very reliable, calibrated hydrometer and a refractometer with ATC I received as a gift this Christmas that I'm still getting a feel for.

SGs are from the hydrometer, Brix from the refractometer, both allowed to settle to ~70°F.

OG: 1.062 16.2 Brix (refract = 3 points high)
FG: 1.013 7.8 Brix (refract = 1 point high, using the BS2 algorithm)

Force carbed.

BS2 calculated an ABV of 5.6%/ABW 4.4%

When I plug these into your calculator it says the ABW is 5.9 and the ABV is 7.5. Seems way off to me. I've been drinking this particular keg for a few weeks and I'm pretty sure the buzz quotient is closer to the BS2 number.

Also, I'm curious about the "Initial SG (15˚C) from initial Brix". It reports 1.067 which is quite a bit higher than my trusty hydrometer, and in the wrong direction considering temperature adjustment (which would be about one point lower than @70°F, iirc)...

Cheers!
 
OG: The difference between your reported Brix of 16.2 and your SG of 1.062 is rather extreme. Usually, at most, I'd see a correction of only about 1.04 to get the Brix to fall into line. In other words, if you plugged your Brix of 16.2/1.04 = 15.6 into the usual polynomials to try to estimate SG from Brix, then your 16.2 Brix should have corresponded to a SG of about 1.066. For example, go to www.brewcalcs.com. In other words, I think either your SG is low or your Brix is high. They don't agree.

Yes, your OG should be converted to 15degC (59degF). That requires adding about 0.001 -- not a big deal. I suggest that your Brix readers are not right.
 
Refractometry is not a practical method for determining the alcohol content of beer unless (and this is a big unless) it is calibrated against distillation or gas chromatography for the type of beer being brewed. IOW it is practical for quick checks by a brewery that has GC or digital density meter and has done the calibration on its Pilsner for example. Thereafter it is not necessary to go through the elaborate procedures involved with the distillation etc. The problem is that residual sugar raises the refractive index but so does alcohol.
 
Please elaborate on what you think is wrong with the method presented: Brix on a sample is compared with Brix on a boiled/reconstituted sample. The difference would be due to EtOH boiled off. The sugars and other components would be present in both readings. Knowing the intrinsic contribution that EtOH makes to Brix, one can estimate EtOH in the original sample from ∆Brix. Agreed, there's imprecision in a refractometer that only reports to 0.1 units.
 
Usually, the correction factor is something less than 1.04. That is, if you divide your Brix by 1.04 and then apply it in polynomials that estimate original SG from Brix, you'll be about in agreement with a measured SG. For example, visit www.brewcalcs.com. Your 1.062 is pretty far from 16.2 Brix. That SG should be more like 15.4 Brix. I can't tell you what's wrong, but those OG data do not mutually agree.


Fwiw, I gave this a try just for yucks. I used data from a recent brew that I checked at each phase with both a very reliable, calibrated hydrometer and a refractometer with ATC I received as a gift this Christmas that I'm still getting a feel for.

SGs are from the hydrometer, Brix from the refractometer, both allowed to settle to ~70°F.

OG: 1.062 16.2 Brix (refract = 3 points high)
FG: 1.013 7.8 Brix (refract = 1 point high, using the BS2 algorithm)

Force carbed.

BS2 calculated an ABV of 5.6%/ABW 4.4%

When I plug these into your calculator it says the ABW is 5.9 and the ABV is 7.5. Seems way off to me. I've been drinking this particular keg for a few weeks and I'm pretty sure the buzz quotient is closer to the BS2 number.

Also, I'm curious about the "Initial SG (15˚C) from initial Brix". It reports 1.067 which is quite a bit higher than my trusty hydrometer, and in the wrong direction considering temperature adjustment (which would be about one point lower than @70°F, iirc)...

Cheers!
 
As I understand it (though this is somewhat above my paygrade), the trouble is that both refractometer and hydrometer readings are unreliable gauges of alcohol content, though in different ways. Hydrometers measure density accurately and refractometers measure refraction accurate, but to use either of these value sets to speculate about alcohol content one must make some strong assumptions about the types of residual sugars in your beer and the amount of sugar rendered into yeast mass rather than alcohol. Both devices provide meaningful measurements of something, but there are structural reasons that prevent reliable conversion between density and refraction measurements.

I plugged my last fifteen batches or so into your formula, Sean Terrill's, and the MoreBeer spreadsheet. Yours and Sean's were significantly more accurate than the MoreBeer polynomial, producing results within 5 points of FG about 70% of the time. But, on the remaining 30% of measurements, readings were sometimes way off.
 
My comments were largely based on the ASBC MOA (Method of Analysis) for estimation of alcohol by refractometery. It requires the calibration. If they had determined that the method was useable without the calibration they wouldn't call for it.

I have also tried the Bonham formula against a hand full of beers and got numbers like:

ABV Estimated_ABV_by_refractometry
4.20 5.09531
5.45 5.85526
7.44 7.87441
6.10 6.9025
6.68 7.5389
5.83 5.78266

Now I didn't understand that you were comparing OE to TE. I have no idea as to whether Brix determined from RI would deviate more from actual Brix in a TE sample than it does OE samples (my experience there is that usually it is fairly good but sometimes off by a couple °P). The sugar spectrum would certainly be different as all the short chain sugars (for which the ICUMSA tables are built) will have been consumed leaving the longer unfermentable ones. There may be no difference but whether there is or not should be easy enough for you to determine. Just measure the boiled sample with refractometer and hydrometer.

Seems to me that if you are willing to go to all the trouble to evaporate and reconstitute extract you should be willing to do the evaporation as part of a distillation and then measure the alcohol content of the distillate. This is time consuming but an accurate answer is possible with nothing more elaborate than a pycnometer and a decent balance.
 
Malfet:
If one takes your concerns to the limit, then one would make no estimates of %ABV from hydrometry or refractometry. As you say, both involve making assumptions about stoichiometry. The question is whether those assumptions are reasonable. My stoichiometry, though derived from bioenergetics, is very similar to Balling's, which has been found reasonably accurate and is widely used.
 
ajdelange:
I'm getting the impression that you have not really understood what I did. Granted, what I posted in the Documentation is rather dense and voluminous! Let me try to separate the %ABV analytical technique, on the one hand, from the calculator (which estimates %ABV from initial and final refractometry), on the other hand.

The proposed analytical technique uses refractometric Brix measured on a sample, compared with refractometric Brix on a boiled, reconstituted sample. Both are based on the same, post-fermentation sample. Both have the identical, complex mixture of residual sugars and other things. The significant difference in those samples is that one has had the EtOH boiled off. Why wouldn't the difference in their Brix be due only to the EtOH? To me, the only flaw in the logic would be if EtOH's incremental contribution to Brix depends on the rest of the matrix; if so, my use of a standard number to express EtOH's incremental contribution to Brix would be an error. I tested the technique on EtOH standards in EtOH/water and in EtOH/water/sucrose solutions, and it worked for both. I believe that with finished beer, we are in a range of sufficiently low EtOH and sufficiently low real extract that the incremental contribution of EtOH to Brix is reasonably constant, per %ABV.

BTW: My only reason for using this analytical technique was to have something with which to compare my Bix-based calculator for estimating %ABV (via pre- and post-fermentation refractometer measurements). I have also compared the calculator with four hydrometer-based methods used to estimate %ABV. That comparison does not depend on any real or supposed measurement of %ABV.

Finally, I'm not advocating the routine analysis of EtOH with the admittedly tedious boil-off/reconstitute technique. That was just something I did to have a benchmark with which to compare the calculator's accuracy (along with comparing it to hydrometer-based methods).
 
day_trpper:
I keep trying to respond to your posting, but my response never appears. I'll try again. Sorry if this ends up being redundant.

There seems to be an inconsistency between your measurements (Brix refractometer vs. hydrometer) of the initial sample. A SG of 1.062 is inconsistent with a Brix of 16.2. For that SG, I would expect a Brix of about 15. That's not just my opinion. Visit the brewcalcs dot com. So, I can't tell you what went wrong, but it's probably an erroneous refractometer measurement.
 
ajdelange:
In sweet wort (i.e., pre-fermentation), the correction factor between refractometer-measured Brix and RE is usually about 1.04 -- i.e., RE = Brix/1.04. In finished beer -- with EtOH boiled off -- the correction factor is more like 1.25. That is, as you suggest, because the non-carbohydrate components that contribute to Brix are, in effect, concentrated in the final beer. (I got this 1.25 by comparing measured SG with measured, refractometric Brix on boiled/reconstituted samples.)
 
Malfet:
If one takes your concerns to the limit, then one would make no estimates of %ABV from hydrometry or refractometry. As you say, both involve making assumptions about stoichiometry. The question is whether those assumptions are reasonable. My stoichiometry, though derived from bioenergetics, is very similar to Balling's, which has been found reasonably accurate and is widely used.

That's not quite what I was suggesting. Because density and refraction are correlated to ABV (somewhat reliably) on the basis of different physical properties (which can, of course, play out differently in different beers), conversion between the two isn't going to be reliable. This is evident in the numbers I get from my own records...roughly 3/4 of the time your algorithm got me within ±5 points of my measured FG, but 1/4 of the time it was off considerably.
 
That's not quite what I was suggesting. Because density and refraction are correlated to ABV (somewhat reliably) on the basis of different physical properties (which can, of course, play out differently in different beers), conversion between the two isn't going to be reliable. This is evident in the numbers I get from my own records...roughly 3/4 of the time your algorithm got me within ±5 points of my measured FG, but 1/4 of the time it was off considerably.

My purpose is not to estimate FG from Brix (though, yes, I provide such an estimate but do little with it). My motive was to bypass the whole SG thing. Refractometry provides an imperfect measure of carbohydrates; so does hydrometry. Why convert one to the other, then try to estimate %ABV? The question is, which method of estimating %ABV is more accurate? And at least I've attempted to provide some info on that in my documentation.
 
My purpose is not to estimate FG from Brix (though, yes, I provide such an estimate but do little with it). My motive was to bypass the whole SG thing. Refractometry provides an imperfect measure of carbohydrates; so does hydrometry. Why convert one to the other, then try to estimate %ABV? The question is, which method of estimating %ABV is more accurate? And at least I've attempted to provide some info on that in my documentation.

Roger that. I can't evaluate your numbers for straight accuracy on ABV, and personally I'm far more interested knowing my FG. But, if you've found these to give an accurate tally of ABV, that's very cool. I've been playing with using a mass flow meter to measure CO2 released during fermentation to accomplish something similar. In any case, it seems significant that your readings and the Balling formula predict different things, but it remains to be seen which is the more accurate.

I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was brow-beating you here. I think it's great that you're doing this. Still, since this is the science forum you should expect some skepticism. ;)
 
Roger that. I can't evaluate your numbers for straight accuracy on ABV, and personally I'm far more interested knowing my FG. But, if you've found these to give an accurate tally of ABV, that's very cool. I've been playing with using a mass flow meter to measure CO2 released during fermentation to accomplish something similar. In any case, it seems significant that your readings and the Balling formula predict different things, but it remains to be seen which is the more accurate.

I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was brow-beating you here. I think it's great that you're doing this. Still, since this is the science forum you should expect some skepticism. ;)

Actually, the difference between my stoichiometry and Balling's is trivial. We agree exactly on EtOH production per g extract consumed. Mine predicts more CO2 and more solids, but those are not very important corrections -- they only go towards predicting final wort mass, and since the overwhelming mass of wort is the water, those stoichiometric corrections for CO2 and solids are not that important to get perfect. In fact, I created a calculator based on Balling's stoichiometry (but with everything else the same), and it predicts only about 0.2 %ABV lower than mine. So, if there are problems with my Brix-based calculator, it's likely not in the stoichiometry.

And I'm not offended by the questions/comments. It's just that I think many of them are from folks who haven't taken the time, yet, to really look at what I did. l Granted, the documentation is dense and voluminous! That part's definitely my fault. :)
 
Actually, the difference between my stoichiometry and Balling's is trivial. We agree exactly on EtOH production per g extract consumed. Mine predicts more CO2 and more solids, but those are not very important corrections -- they only go towards predicting final wort mass, and since the overwhelming mass of wort is the water, those stoichiometric corrections for CO2 and solids are not that important to get perfect. In fact, I created a calculator based on Balling's stoichiometry (but with everything else the same), and it predicts only about 0.2 %ABV lower than mine. So, if there are problems with my Brix-based calculator, it's likely not in the stoichiometry.

And I'm not offended by the questions/comments. It's just that I think many of them are from folks who haven't taken the time, yet, to really look at what I did. l Granted, the documentation is dense and voluminous! That part's definitely my fault. :)

The stoic difference may be trivial, but clearly something else isn't. Your calculator and the Balling equation for density make significantly different predictions on empirical data.

I'll certainly pick through the documentation as time and ability allow (it seems interesting), but no amount of theory-grinding changes the fact that the numbers aren't matching up. That, for me, is the impetus for my skepticism. Everything else I'm saying is just speculation about why the mismatch is happening.
 
Looking at this from a broad POV you have an observable, the refractive index which obviously depends on the amount of alcohol in the solution:

RI = f(A)

But you don't really know what f is. You know that it depends on True Extract, of course,

RI = f(A;TE)

but it also depends on a lot of other things so the formula really needs to be written

RI = f(A;TE, OE, q1,q2,q3.....)

where everything to the right of the semicolon is a 'consider parameter' i.e. something which needs to be considered) such as the original extract, the concentration of long chain dextrines, the amount of protein, soluble hops products......i.e. any optically active substance in the beer. You also know that True Extract depends on Apparent Extract and Original Extract so

RI = f(A; AE, OE, q1, q2, q3, ...)

It's a simple matter to get an estimate of A from an RI measurement

A_ = F_inv(RI; AE, OE, q1, q2, q3...)


In the MEBAK and ASBC approaches, f_inv is assumed linear in AE and RI and it is further assumed that for some group of beers the variations between beers in the other consider parameters is small. The error in the estimate has 2 terms. The first is attributable to error in measurement error in RI (note that you cannot use ATC in making these measurements as the ATC algorithm in a refractometer is designed for sucrose solutions and beer is demonstrably different). The second is due to variance in the consider parameters of which only measurement of AE should be significant for a small group of like beers. You are really doing a Taylor series expansion about some unknown vector of q's and assume that no beer in the ensemble has a q vector appreciably different from the one about which you are expanding). If these assumptions are good you get a nice linear formula for A_ and all is well. The ASBC has you determine the slope and offset of this formula and MEBAK gives you one for Vollbier and one for Starkbier. Louis Bonham did the same thing.

The problem is that the q parameters are too variable over the ranges of all beers and even, in my experience, over the range of voll or stark in the MEBAK method. That consider parameter covariance term becomes a large contributor to the variance in the estimate A_.

I cannot get any of the published formulae to give me errors which I consider acceptable. There is a big difference between the way this old body responds to a couple of pints of 5.0 ABV and a couple of pints of 6.0%.

Given my experiences with refractometry as a means of determining ABV, the positions of MEBAK and ASBC, the experiences of others and a basic understanding of estimation theory it wasn't really necessary for me to read about the details of your approach (but I did go back and do so anyway once I realized it was out there).

What I don't want to do is discourage investigation. You apparently have means to measure actual ABV and given that you don't need my opinion. You need data. At some point you should be able to say "I have a method that, over an ensemble of X beers gave, ABV estimates with rms error Y %" Potential users then can decide whether Y % is good enough for them or not.
 
Looking at this from a broad POV you have an observable, the refractive index which obviously depends on the amount of alcohol in the solution:

RI = f(A)

But you don't really know what f is. You know that it depends on True Extract, of course,

RI = f(A;TE)

but it also depends on a lot of other things so the formula really needs to be written

RI = f(A;TE, OE, q1,q2,q3.....)

where everything to the right of the semicolon is a 'consider parameter' i.e. something which needs to be considered) such as the original extract, the concentration of long chain dextrines, the amount of protein, soluble hops products......i.e. any optically active substance in the beer. You also know that True Extract depends on Apparent Extract and Original Extract so

RI = f(A; AE, OE, q1, q2, q3, ...)

It's a simple matter to get an estimate of A from an RI measurement

A_ = F_inv(RI; AE, OE, q1, q2, q3...)


In the MEBAK and ASBC approaches, f_inv is assumed linear in AE and RI and it is further assumed that for some group of beers the variations between beers in the other consider parameters is small. The error in the estimate has 2 terms. The first is attributable to error in measurement error in RI (note that you cannot use ATC in making these measurements as the ATC algorithm in a refractometer is designed for sucrose solutions and beer is demonstrably different). The second is due to variance in the consider parameters of which only measurement of AE should be significant for a small group of like beers. You are really doing a Taylor series expansion about some unknown vector of q's and assume that no beer in the ensemble has a q vector appreciably different from the one about which you are expanding). If these assumptions are good you get a nice linear formula for A_ and all is well. The ASBC has you determine the slope and offset of this formula and MEBAK gives you one for Vollbier and one for Starkbier. Louis Bonham did the same thing.

The problem is that the q parameters are too variable over the ranges of all beers and even, in my experience, over the range of voll or stark in the MEBAK method. That consider parameter covariance term becomes a large contributor to the variance in the estimate A_.

I cannot get any of the published formulae to give me errors which I consider acceptable. There is a big difference between the way this old body responds to a couple of pints of 5.0 ABV and a couple of pints of 6.0%.

Given my experiences with refractometry as a means of determining ABV, the positions of MEBAK and ASBC, the experiences of others and a basic understanding of estimation theory it wasn't really necessary for me to read about the details of your approach (but I did go back and do so anyway once I realized it was out there).

What I don't want to do is discourage investigation. You apparently have means to measure actual ABV and given that you don't need my opinion. You need data. At some point you should be able to say "I have a method that, over an ensemble of X beers gave, ABV estimates with rms error Y %" Potential users then can decide whether Y % is good enough for them or not.

Hi! I feel like we're communicating 'round each other, and not to each other. I'm interpreting your comments as being about my proposed analytical method for measuring %ABV, and not on the Calculator that tries to model it from pre-fermentation and post-fermentation Brix -- right? It would help if we could be sure we're referring to the same thing.

So let's just focus, for now, on my proposed analytical technique -- sample Brix compared with Brix on a boiled/reconstituted version of that same sample.

If I just use the difference in those two Brix values, isn't the difference just the EtOH that got boiled off? Aren't all those other equation terms the same in both samples?

Before boiling,

RI = f(A;TE, q1,q2,q3.....)
(I don't see why you had OE in there). Brix on the sample is a function of A, TE, and a bunch of other things that aren't extract but contribute to Brix. Yes, TE and all those other things are functions of OE, but we don't care about that at this point. The sample is what it is It has A, TE, and a bunch of other things in it that could contribute to Brix).

After boiling/reconstituting,

RI = f(TE, q1,q2,q3.....)

where TE, q1, q2, q3, etc. have the same values in both samples.

If so, then the crux of what I have done -- my assumption -- is that EtOH contribution to Brix is independent of the rest of the matrix and contributes linearly to Brix. I found the contribution to be linear and constant when comparing EtOH in water to EtOH in water with sucrose.

Yes, I have the capability to measure %ABV via GC/FID with megabore capillary column. I'd have to kick someone off one of my lab's instruments to install the appropriate column, but I can do it. It was my feeling, however, that comparing my analytical method to standards was superior to comparing it to GC analysis. Thus far, all I've done is to compare to standards of EtOH/sucrose/water. What I can do is to create standards in post-fermentation wort (distilled of pre-existing EtOH) and measure those, rather than comparing two analytical techniques with each other. Or, even simpler, is that I can see if the contribution of EtOH to Brix is the same in EtOH/wort as in EtOH/sucrose.

Finally, I'll note that if the number i use for "Brix per %ABV" is wrong, then it will affect the Calculator used to model %ABV from pre- and post-fermentation Brix differently than it will affect my proposed analytical technique (the boil/reconstitution method). An erroneously large "Brix per %ABV" will cause over-estimation of %ABV with the Calculator and will cause under-estimation of %ABV analytically. The fact that the Calculator tends to gives similar %ABV as found "analytically" suggests I can't be too far off in wort, at least in terms of that "Brix per %ABV" contribution from EtOH.

And now, I think I'll go have a beer!
 
The stoic difference may be trivial, but clearly something else isn't. Your calculator and the Balling equation for density make significantly different predictions on empirical data.

I'll certainly pick through the documentation as time and ability allow (it seems interesting), but no amount of theory-grinding changes the fact that the numbers aren't matching up. That, for me, is the impetus for my skepticism. Everything else I'm saying is just speculation about why the mismatch is happening.

If you're referring only to final SG estimates, well those don't really come from my model, per se. I employed an often-employed polynomial that uses initial and final Brix (from refractometry) to estimate final SG. I did this because, as explained in the Documentation, I don't really care about final SG. But, for what it's worth, here are comparisons for a dozen of my brews:

Meas Modeled
Final Final
SG SG
1.011 1.010
1.012 1.016
1.016 1.016
1.020 1.020
1.012 1.011
1.002 1.003
1.016 1.014
0.994 0.992
1.006 1.005
1.002 1.003
1.010 1.012
1.005 1.008

It's not perfect, but it plays almost no role in the Calculator I use to estimate %ABV from initial and final Brix. Its only role is in converting from initially modeled %ABW to %ABV: %ABV = %ABW*FG/0.794
where 0.794 is the density of EtOH at 15 degC. A rather high error in FG can be tolerated in this.
 
Hi! I feel like we're communicating 'round each other, and not to each other. I'm interpreting your comments as being about my proposed analytical method for measuring %ABV, and not on the Calculator that tries to model it from pre-fermentation and post-fermentation Brix -- right?
No, actually it is all about the model. It doesn't matter how you do it, the ultimate accuracy depends on the 'geometry' of the problem i.e. on how 'observable' A is and on whether you know the consider parameters well enough. I'm assuming from your location that you are "Far above...." as was hoping that posing it in terms of estimation theory would make it clearer.


So let's just focus, for now, on my proposed analytical technique -- sample Brix compared with Brix on a boiled/reconstituted version of that same sample.

If I just use the difference in those two Brix values, isn't the difference just the EtOH that got boiled off? Aren't all those other equation terms the same in both samples?

If you measure it with densitometer or pycnometer, probably pretty close but if you measure it with refractometer I wouldn't think so. Does boiled reconstituted beer look like or smell like the original? At the very least the proteins have been denatured. That's how I would think of it but were it my experiment I would take beers whose alcohol content I knew, subject them to the standard MOA and compare to refractometer readings. I have done this with ABV and found the discrepancies I reported. I have never tried to estimate TE with a refractometer. I'll note that the MEBAK method gives 2 formulae: one for ABW as a function of RI and AE and one for TE as a function of RI and AE.


Before boiling,

RI = f(A;TE, q1,q2,q3.....)
(I don't see why you had OE in there).

Balling's basic table is in terms of the difference between TE and OE. But there are others in terms of OE and AE; AE and TE. It is kind of arbitrary as to which pair of variables you pick as the independent ones. I think I probably stuck OE in there as a consider parameter because all the difference tables are multiplied by a factor which depends on OE.


Brix on the sample is a function of A, TE, and a bunch of other things that aren't extract but contribute to Brix. Yes, TE and all those other things are functions of OE, but we don't care about that at this point.

By definition, anything that isn't ethanol but which causes the density of the beer/wort to be different from water is extract. But now I am confused as to whether, when you use the term Brix, you mean it to refer to the actual Brix (Plato value) as determined by a density measurement or the Brix value as read on a refractometer calibrated against sucrose.







If so, then the crux of what I have done -- my assumption -- is that EtOH contribution to Brix is independent of the rest of the matrix and contributes linearly to Brix. I found the contribution to be linear and constant when comparing EtOH in water to EtOH in water with sucrose.

Again I'm unclear as to whether 'Brix' refers to a density based measurement or an RI based one.


Yes, I have the capability to measure %ABV via GC/FID with megabore capillary column. I'd have to kick someone off one of my lab's instruments to install the appropriate column, but I can do it. It was my feeling, however, that comparing my analytical method to standards was superior to comparing it to GC analysis. Thus far, all I've done is to compare to standards of EtOH/sucrose/water.

Were you to conclude that your proposed method works what you would do is forward it to the ASBC Standards Committee who would consider it as a potential new MOA. Before it was adopted a collaborative study would be done in which samples of beer with known alcohol content, TE, AE and OE would be sent out to various breweries' laboratories who would be asked to measure the RI and calculate the ABV or TE (whichever it is you are trying to model) using the proposed MOA. Data on intra and inter laboratory repeatability, coefficient of variation etc. would be collected and depending on what that collaborative study showed the method would be accepted or not. What I am getting at is that ultimately what counts is how well the proposed technique works with real beer.

If I understand this at all you are hoping to throw away your hydrometer and determine ABV from a pair of refractometer readings. Is this right? You ought to be able to determine pretty quickly if ABV can be modeled from 2 refractometer readings with any reasonable model by plotting measured ABV's against RI1 and RI2 and then doing some simple fits. If the residuals are large and noisy (i.e. you can't see any structure in them) it is unlikely that you will be successful. If they are small and noisy then that is success!
 
No, actually it is all about the model. It doesn't matter how you do it, the ultimate accuracy depends on the 'geometry' of the problem i.e. on how 'observable' A is and on whether you know the consider parameters well enough. I'm assuming from your location that you are "Far above...." as was hoping that posing it in terms of estimation theory would make it clearer.




If you measure it with densitometer or pycnometer, probably pretty close but if you measure it with refractometer I wouldn't think so. Does boiled reconstituted beer look like or smell like the original? At the very least the proteins have been denatured. That's how I would think of it but were it my experiment I would take beers whose alcohol content I knew, subject them to the standard MOA and compare to refractometer readings. I have done this with ABV and found the discrepancies I reported. I have never tried to estimate TE with a refractometer. I'll note that the MEBAK method gives 2 formulae: one for ABW as a function of RI and AE and one for TE as a function of RI and AE.




Balling's basic table is in terms of the difference between TE and OE. But there are others in terms of OE and AE; AE and TE. It is kind of arbitrary as to which pair of variables you pick as the independent ones. I think I probably stuck OE in there as a consider parameter because all the difference tables are multiplied by a factor which depends on OE.




By definition, anything that isn't ethanol but which causes the density of the beer/wort to be different from water is extract. But now I am confused as to whether, when you use the term Brix, you mean it to refer to the actual Brix (Plato value) as determined by a density measurement or the Brix value as read on a refractometer calibrated against sucrose.









Again I'm unclear as to whether 'Brix' refers to a density based measurement or an RI based one.




Were you to conclude that your proposed method works what you would do is forward it to the ASBC Standards Committee who would consider it as a potential new MOA. Before it was adopted a collaborative study would be done in which samples of beer with known alcohol content, TE, AE and OE would be sent out to various breweries' laboratories who would be asked to measure the RI and calculate the ABV or TE (whichever it is you are trying to model) using the proposed MOA. Data on intra and inter laboratory repeatability, coefficient of variation etc. would be collected and depending on what that collaborative study showed the method would be accepted or not. What I am getting at is that ultimately what counts is how well the proposed technique works with real beer.

If I understand this at all you are hoping to throw away your hydrometer and determine ABV from a pair of refractometer readings. Is this right? You ought to be able to determine pretty quickly if ABV can be modeled from 2 refractometer readings with any reasonable model by plotting measured ABV's against RI1 and RI2 and then doing some simple fits. If the residuals are large and noisy (i.e. you can't see any structure in them) it is unlikely that you will be successful. If they are small and noisy then that is success!

For clarity: I'm referring in previous message only to the analytical technique involving measurement of Brix on a sample and on a boiled, reconstituted sample. And whenever I use the term "Brix," I'm referring to a refractometer reading, not the use of a Brix scale on a hydrometer.

I'll mull all this over. I appreciate your comments. If you haven't taken the time to do so, take a look at the Documentation that accompanies the Calculator I posted. Particularly the section on EtOH contribution to Brix.

Thanks.
 
OG: The difference between your reported Brix of 16.2 and your SG of 1.062 is rather extreme. Usually, at most, I'd see a correction of only about 1.04 to get the Brix to fall into line. In other words, if you plugged your Brix of 16.2/1.04 = 15.6 into the usual polynomials to try to estimate SG from Brix, then your 16.2 Brix should have corresponded to a SG of about 1.066. For example, go to www.brewcalcs.com. In other words, I think either your SG is low or your Brix is high. They don't agree.

Just so I'm not totally confused, when I posted this:

"OG: 1.062 16.2 Brix (refract = 3 points high)"

indicating I thought the refractometer was reading 3 points higher than expected, we're both referring to the same thing, just differing by a single gravity point, yes?

I don't know what kind of refractometer you have, but the "line" that is to be read on mine isn't sharp enough that the Brix equivalent of one SG point +/- would be easily determined.

Still, if I use this formula:

SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix) + 0.00001296425(Brix) + 0.00000005701128(Brix)]

with a Brix reading of 16.2, the SG result is 1.062852875, which I would round up to 1.063. I'd call that closer to three points off than four, but that would be quibbling ;)

In any case, the hydrometer reads dead nuts 1.000 using distilled water at 60°F per its manufacturer instructions, and I adjusted the refractometer to read 1.000 using the same distilled water but at 68°F per its manufacturer instructions. Then I used the pre-pitched wort from the first batch I did after I received the refractometer to configured BS2's refractometer tool to correlate the refractometer against the hydrometer and set a correction factor (which came out to 1.07139 - and which to be honest I had totally forgotten about when I posted those numbers ;)

So I guess that leaves me with "non-portable" Brix readings, but with the correction factor I should be able to correlate against my own hydrometer. Does that seem true, or am I missing something.

Cheers!
 
Just so I'm not totally confused, when I posted this:

"OG: 1.062 16.2 Brix (refract = 3 points high)"

indicating I thought the refractometer was reading 3 points higher than expected, we're both referring to the same thing, just differing by a single gravity point, yes?

I don't know what kind of refractometer you have, but the "line" that is to be read on mine isn't sharp enough that the Brix equivalent of one SG point +/- would be easily determined.

Still, if I use this formula:

SG = 1.000019 + [0.003865613(Brix) + 0.00001296425(Brix) + 0.00000005701128(Brix)]

with a Brix reading of 16.2, the SG result is 1.062852875, which I would round up to 1.063. I'd call that closer to three points off than four, but that would be quibbling ;)

In any case, the hydrometer reads dead nuts 1.000 using distilled water at 60°F per its manufacturer instructions, and I adjusted the refractometer to read 1.000 using the same distilled water but at 68°F per its manufacturer instructions. Then I used the pre-pitched wort from the first batch I did after I received the refractometer to configured BS2's refractometer tool to correlate the refractometer against the hydrometer and set a correction factor (which came out to 1.07139 - and which to be honest I had totally forgotten about when I posted those numbers ;)

So I guess that leaves me with "non-portable" Brix readings, but with the correction factor I should be able to correlate against my own hydrometer. Does that seem true, or am I missing something.

Cheers!
The equation I use for estimating original SG from refractometric Brix is this one:
SG = 1.000898 + 0.003859118*B + 0.00001370735*B*B + 0.00000003742517*B*B*B

http://www.primetab.com/formulas.html

which gives 1.067 for 16.2 Brix.

1.062 would correspond to about 15 Brix. I have found the above equation to give good agreement with measured values.

When you say you adjusted the refractometer to read 1.000 with distilled water, I hope you didn't mean 1.000 Brix. It should read 0.0 Brix with distilled water. Perhaps that's your problem?

When it comes to "correction factors," for refractometers on wort, I need to point out that my Brix-based calculator requires entering the raw, refractometer Brix data. Don't divide by 1.04 (or some other correction like your 1.07) to use my calculator.

Such correction factors are intended to make the measured Brix more accurately reflect "real extract" on the pre-fermented wort. But the correction factor is completely invalid for post-fermented wort. As real sugar is fermented, the "other" stuff accounting for the difference between Brix and real sugar ends up being concentrated in the wort. I developed my calculator to use raw Brix readings.
 
[...]When you say you adjusted the refractometer to read 1.000 with distilled water, I hope you didn't mean 1.000 Brix. It should read 0.0 Brix with distilled water. Perhaps that's your problem?
[...]

A typo, caused by a slightly (well, maybe more than that) frazzled brain from doing our tax returns today ;)

There are so many different formulas out there for converting from Brix to SG, some of which are really meant for wines, some for beer, some are clearly simplified, some much more complex. I thought I had picked a decent one, maybe not...

Cheers!
 
A typo, caused by a slightly (well, maybe more than that) frazzled brain from doing our tax returns today ;)

There are so many different formulas out there for converting from Brix to SG, some of which are really meant for wines, some for beer, some are clearly simplified, some much more complex. I thought I had picked a decent one, maybe not...

Cheers!

You know, if your wort "correction factor" really is 1.07, then your 16.2 measured Brix would correct to 15.1 -- which, with the equation I use, converts to an estimated SG = 1.062. So maybe you're OK after all. I'm just not used to seeing a 1.07 'correction factor.' That still leaves me unable to explain why the %ABV estimate with my calculator would differ so markedly from what you'd get using SG-based estimators. The calculator is designed to use uncorrected Brix (for both initial and final), so you shouldn't be entering "corrected" Brix to it. The constituents responsible for need for correction will cancel out, if we assume they're still present after fermentation. Oh well...
 
There are so many different formulas out there for converting from Brix to SG, some of which are really meant for wines, some for beer....

In North America for beer we use the following 'Official' (i.e. ASBC) polynomial to obtain degrees Plato from apparent 20/20 specific gravity:

deg_P(SG)= ((135.997*SG - 630.272)*SG +1111.14)*SG –616.868

This was obtained by fitting the Plato Commission tables as adjusted to 20/20 in air. It's not what I get when I fit the adjusted tables but it is official. To go the other way you must invert this polynomial. Yes, it is possible to fit the table for another third order polynomial in deg_P

SG_= ((6.34964E–8*deg_P + 1.27447E–5)*deg_P + 0.00386777)*deg_P +1.0000131

but it is not the inverse of the ASBC polynomial. To obtain an exact solution one must solve

deg_P - ((135.997*SG - 630.272)*SG +1111.14)*SG –616.868 = 0

for SG. This can be done in closed form but the code for doing so is much messier than a bisecting root finder:



function root(P)
variable P
|finds specific gravity corresponding to P degrees Plato by root bisection
variable sg1 = 0.9999999
variable sg2 = 1.2000
variable sgb
variable f1,f2,fb
variable j = 0
variable dsg
variable tolerance = 1.e-8
|Check that there is a solution between sg1 and sg2
f1 = P - deg_p(sg1)
f2 = P - deg_p(sg2)
if (f1*f2 >0 ) | There is no valid solution. Return signal for exception handler
return -1
else
dsg = sg2 - sg1
do
sgb = sg1 +dsg/2
fb = P - deg_p(sgb)
if(f1*fb < 0) |root is between sg1 and sgb
sg2 = sgb
else |root is betweeb sgb and sg2
sg1 = sgb
endif
dsg = sg2 - sg1
j += 1
while ( (abs(dsg) > tolerance)*(j < 25) )
return sgb
endif
end function
 
I dont car if the thiing works or not, I am using it because I hate using a freaking hydrometer period.

Thanks Gossett
 
In finished beer -- with EtOH boiled off -- the correction factor is more like 1.25. That is, as you suggest, because the non-carbohydrate components that contribute to Brix are, in effect, concentrated in the final beer. (I got this 1.25 by comparing measured SG with measured, refractometric Brix on boiled/reconstituted samples.)

Jim,

RE: a 1.25 WCF of finished beers, does that mean a refractometer reading of a de-gassed sample of finished beer, whose FG = 1.013, would be about 4.125? (1.013 = 3.3P, and 3.3P x 1.25 = 4.125P)

This falls in line with my empirical readings from my new refractometer, which was freaking me out because I was assuming a WCF of just 1.04 and I was convinced my beer had failed to attenuate properly.
 
Jim,

RE: a 1.25 WCF of finished beers, does that mean a refractometer reading of a de-gassed sample of finished beer, whose FG = 1.013, would be about 4.125? (1.013 = 3.3P, and 3.3P x 1.25 = 4.125P)

This falls in line with my empirical readings from my new refractometer, which was freaking me out because I was assuming a WCF of just 1.04 and I was convinced my beer had failed to attenuate properly.

Let's hope Jim has this handled by now. :)
 
Jim,
This falls in line with my empirical readings from my refractometer, which was freaking me out because I was assuming a WCF of just 1.04 and I was convinced my beer had failed to attenuate properly.

The attached screenshot shows the relevant calculation from http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/. Prior to using this calculator I had been baffled by my refractometer reading of 4.2P (1.0165 if used on unfermented wort), because it was in stark contrast to my hydrometer's FG reading of about 1.005. These measurements left me with competing theories that either (a) my beer had stopped fermenting about 4 points early, or (b) my beer had attenuated way below its intended FG. Obviously neither outcome seemed easy to explain!

But now in hindsight it's apparent that the 1.005 SG reading was due to the pleasing presence of ethanol, which has about 79% the density of water. I haven't yet computed a wort conversion factor specific to my equipment, or to this style of beer, but using the default factor of 1.04 took away a lot of my concern.

Live and learn!

Refractometer_calculation.png
 
Jim,

RE: a 1.25 WCF of finished beers, does that mean a refractometer reading of a de-gassed sample of finished beer, whose FG = 1.013, would be about 4.125? (1.013 = 3.3P, and 3.3P x 1.25 = 4.125P)

This falls in line with my empirical readings from my new refractometer, which was freaking me out because I was assuming a WCF of just 1.04 and I was convinced my beer had failed to attenuate properly.

danielcook, I'm not sure I have completely understood your question. Is your FG of 1.013 a hydrometer reading or the reading on a refractometer that has a SG scale on it? There are both refractometers and hydrometers that have dual SG and Plato (or Brix) scales on them, and the interconversion of scales built into the devices only applies to unfermented wort – not to beer.

To keep things less confusing, I'm using "gravity" to refer hydrometer readings, and I'm using Plato or Brix to refer to refractometer readings.

There is also ethanol (EtOH) in finished beer, and it contributes significantly to both hydrometer and refractometer final readings (in negative and positive manners, respectively). EtOH lowers SG but raises refractometer reading. The relationship between final refractometer reading and FG (hydrometer-based) depends on OG (or original refractometer reading) because the higher the OG, the more EtOH in the final refractometer reading. WCFs are merely attempts to correct for non-sucrose-like constituents in worts. WCFs don't deal with EtOH.

In initial wort (before there is any ethanol, EtOH, present), the WCF is, in part, used to account for non-carbohydrate components in the wort that would contribute to a refractometer reading, but wouldn't really be part of the original, "real extract" (RE). The refractometer scale is based on a pure sucrose solution, and wort is not sucrose (and, in fact, wort is not all carbohydrate, either). These non-carbohydrate components are a greater fraction of the final apparent extract after the fermentable carbs are gone. That's why the WCF goes up. However, there is EtOH also present in the final beer, and it also contributes significantly to a refractometer reading. The WCF of 1.25 that I measured was on final beers whose EtOH had been removed. It should not, alone, be applied to a final refractometer reading to estimate final RE or FG.

If you visit at my calculator

http://www.ithacoin.com/brewing/ABV_calc_frontpage.htm

you can experiment with different initial and final refractometer readings and see the effect on initial and final RE (first two pale blue cells) and final SG (hydrometer-based) – the last entry in the output column.
 
The attached screenshot shows the relevant calculation from http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/. Prior to using this calculator I had been baffled by my refractometer reading of 4.2P (1.0165 if used on unfermented wort), because it was in stark contrast to my hydrometer's FG reading of about 1.005. These measurements left me with competing theories that either (a) my beer had stopped fermenting about 4 points early, or (b) my beer had attenuated way below its intended FG. Obviously neither outcome seemed easy to explain!

But now in hindsight it's apparent that the 1.005 SG reading was due to the pleasing presence of ethanol, which has about 79% the density of water. I haven't yet computed a wort conversion factor specific to my equipment, or to this style of beer, but using the default factor of 1.04 took away a lot of my concern.

Live and learn!

Great!

As an aside: If I recall correctly, Sean Terrill's calculator to estimate FG from initial and final refractometer readings is based on using the same WCF (something like 1.04) to final refractometer reading, as well as to intial refractometer reading. Terrill put considerable effort into developing his calculator to improve estimates of FG over another available calculator – that of Bonham (Bonham, L. K., "The Use of Handheld Refractometers by Homebrewers," Zymurgy, 43-45, January/February (2001)). However, Bonham does not call for using a WCF when inputting the refractometer reading of the finished beer. As I've previously pointed out, there is no basis for using the same WCF for both wort and finished beer. Therefore, Bonham used no WCF for the finished beer. This, I believe, is why Terrill perceived inaccuracies in using Bonham's calculator: Terrill was inputting "corrected" final refractometer readings for finished beer when no correction was called for, if using Bohham's method. This doesn't make Terrill's method "wrong." I'm merely explaining why I think Terrill found "inaccuracies" using Bonham's method: Terrill, in effect, did not use Bonham's method as Bonham intended.
 
I've been working on a web-based calculator to estimate %ABV from initial and final Brix. Yes, there are polynomials that allow OG and FG to be estimated from initial and final Brix, and then one can use one of the many equations to estimate %ABV from OG and FG. But that seems circuitous. You're converting one indirect measure of carbohydrate content to another. Plus, I never see anyone evaluate the resulting accuracy. That was my motivation. Check it out here, if you're interested:

ABV Calculator Frontpage

== Jim

Thanks Jim for your ABV from Brix calculator. I tried it on my current brew, a deliberately low gravity British bitter. The OG and FG were 1.030 and 1.010 on a hydrometer, the FG reading after most of the fermentation was complete. (From my experience, the FG will probably end up at ~1.003 due to further fermentation, after transferring to a keg for about a week before bottling; not due to any added sugar. I add 1.5g/500ml priming sugar when bottling). On a refractometer, the corresponding readings were 8.1% and 4.3% Brix. The ABV estimate from an SG calculator (1.030-1.010) x 131.25, would be about 2.6% before priming. Your formula for Brix gives 3.2% before priming. However, Brix to SG calculators suggest 8.1% Brix is equivalent to 1.032 SG, though my hydrometer disagrees. If I enter 1.032 in the SG formula it would give 2.9%, a bit closer to your figure. I still find the formula useful to keep a check on Brix once the beer is bottled. It's no use wasting 100ml of bottled beer to estimate FG on a hydrometer. I have often had beer bombs that have continued to ferment once in bottle (in addition to priming) despite having apparently finished fermentation before bottling with a stable FG. They mnay foam and gush on opening. I always use swing top bottles so I can relieve the increase of pressure if necessary. It is a nuisance. This unwanted secondary fermentation could be due to a significant increase of room temperature during a summer heatwave. In the UK very few houses have cool air conditioning, mine included. It would just not be needed apart from a few weeks a year. Or the yeast might flocculate too early and then start again when disturbed by the syphoning process. Or the addition of a different yeast for priming could upset the balance. I've stopped doing that now. Whatever the reason, it's very useful to use your formula to give an estimate of whether the alcoholic strength of the beer is increasing while in the bottle.
 
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