Manual Mode for a Mypin TA PID

This may be posted but I can't find it.

I just received an Mypin TA4 -SNR PID and the associated SSR and thermocouple. I know how to use it for strike water and mash temp based on the temp, but how do I control the duty cycle during the boil? I see something call manual mode for other PIDs but the instructions that came with mine don't mention such a mode.

Read the last post on this tread.

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25266

You need the TD4 for manual mode, not the TA4. I've been contemplating this vs the goto Auber PID (comment not intended to start another PID debate).

Couldn't you wire around it with a switch to bypass the pid when you want it manual? I ask because I have 3 of these myself and this is my eventual plan...

deadboy said:

Couldn't you wire around it with a switch to bypass the pid when you want it manual? I ask because I have 3 of these myself and this is my eventual plan...

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No, you want to be able to set the duty cycle manually during the boil. If you bypass the PID altogether you just leave the heater on 100% of the time. That's usually a little much.

I went ahead and ordered the other kind of PID for the boil kettle. I'll use this one for my HLT. It's going to be very nice brewing all electric.

OHHH, yeah. I mean I guess you still have the pid temp readings to turn it back off with but what I was talking about with a bypass was for my pump. If it drops below the approp. temp it'll kick on the pump to run the mash thru the heat exchanger till it warms up.

Most of the recirc systems I've seen leave the pump on continuously and turn the heater on and off to maintain temp. No need to bypass the PID either way.

Just for explanation, I won't be using the temp probe for the boil kettle. I want to maintain a boil so there won't be any temperature change to trigger the heater on and off (water boils at a constant temp no matter how much heat you add to it). Instead, I'll use the manual mode to set the heater at 50% or so duty cycle to keep the boil rolling but not so much that I loose too much wort.

Hmm, I was looking at a PID for the boil element, one for the pump from the mash tun to warm it, and one for the HLT element. The pump for the heat exchanger will also pump to the kettle so I wanted to be able to bypass the PID when it's time to move it.

I think we're talking past each other. You don't need a PID for your pumps. Just run them off of a simple on/off switch. Most people run their recirc pump continuously through the mash.

The TA4 PIDs will work fine for controlling your HLT, RIMS, HERMS or anything else you need to maintain a temp below boiling. You only need the TD4 PID for the boil kettle since it needs to switch based on manual duty cycle rather than temp. However, based on post #2 above you can still use a TA4 if you set the temp for a couple degrees below boiling. I'm not going to do that because I don't plan on putting a thermowell on my kettle.

I guess my concern was running the pump less meant less chance of disturbing the grain bed. Admittedly I'm new, so new I haven't done it yet, to all grain so I've just been looking at other people's designs.

My plan was to run 3 PIDs. One for HLT element, one for kettle element, and one for MT pump. I'm using a 10 gallon igloo cooler for MT so it should hold temp well enough not to need an element. So if I just have an on off for the boil element and the mash pump and kettle pump do I only need one PID and therefore one thermocouple? That seems weird. Am I forgetting something?

deadboy said:

I guess my concern was running the pump less meant less chance of disturbing the grain bed. Admittedly I'm new, so new I haven't done it yet, to all grain so I've just been looking at other people's designs.

My plan was to run 3 PIDs. One for HLT element, one for kettle element, and one for MT pump. I'm using a 10 gallon igloo cooler for MT so it should hold temp well enough not to need an element. So if I just have an on off for the boil element and the mash pump and kettle pump do I only need one PID and therefore one thermocouple? That seems weird. Am I forgetting something?

Click to expand...

You don't really need an MT pump unless you are going to run a HERMs or RIMS system. In fact, it's probably counter-productive to your mass temps.

A PID with thermocouple/RTD for the HLT makes sense as you would expect.

A PID for the boil is also useful though you don't need the thermocouple. Water/wort boils at a constant temperature so it doesn't make sense to control the heater based on temperature. It's not going to change as long as you keep it boiling. That said, you don't want to leave the heating element on at 100% throughout the boil since that would lead to excessive boil-off and/or scorching. Instead, you can use a PID in manual mode to cycle the heater on and off based on duty cycle. Duty cycle is the ratio of time the heater is on versus time elapsed. 100% duty cycle means the heater is on all the time. As an example, 50% duty cycle means it cycles on for 10s then off for 10s (the durations could be longer or shorter based on your PID settings).

Without a pump for the mt how would I cycle through the heat exchange? Or move the wort to the kettle?

I wasn't saying you don't need a pump ( though I'm not using one). Rather, you don't need to control it with a PID.

I assume you mean a chiller when you say " heat exchange(r)". If so, you don't need a PID to control the pump. Just turn it on and let it go, same thing for moving the wort to the kettle. The only time you need temp control (ie a PID) associated with a pump is if you are doing a HERMS/RIMS setup and even then you don't need to control the pump with the PID.

Okay, I got my TD4 series PID today. Unfortunately it came with a TA sries instruction sheet. How do I put it in manual mode?

Answering my own question.
http://flextronicbg.com/TD.pdf

However, I'm still not sure how to set my duty cycle. Any help out there?

well, I suppose technically there are two heat exchangers in my rig. One to keep the mash at a constant temp and the one to cool the wort. The one I was talking about using a PID to control the pump for was the mash one. I'm not certain it's nesc but I don't imagine it hurts anything.

Or does it?

A pid that controls a pump is not necessary and could actually cause more problems than it's worth.

The pump constantly recirculates the wort from the MLT to the heat source and back. The amount of heat loss in the lines and pump is going to be a lot more than in the MLT. Where is your thermometer going to be placed? One of the main objectives to heating mash with a RIMS or HERMS is to keep it at the correct temp for the enzymes in the mash to convert the starches to sugar. Those enzymes and starches are in the wort that's in the pump and your lines. Cooler temps will mean that some of the enzymes won't do their job and you will have a reduced efficiency.

Another thing recirculating does for you is to filter some of the larger proteins from the wort and leave them in the MLT. The types of pumps used for the mash (at least the Chugger and March pumps) are meant for continuous duty. So long as you keep them lubricated as required by the manufacturer you're ok.

In my opinion, a pump controlled by a PID is unnecessary and will add to the complexity of your build with no gain and potentially cause a loss of efficiency.

Just my 0.02.

stlbeer said:

Where is your thermometer going to be placed?

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I had figured on placing it a few inches above the drain valve. Is there a better place?

I've reread this thread twice now and I still don't have a clear sense of what it is you're trying to accomplish.

If you could give us a complete run down of how you are planning to brew then you will likely get more assistance on how to accomplish your goal. Something like this:

1. Heat strike water to temp using 5500w 240v water heater element in HLT. Using PID to reach/maintain temps.
2. Mash in Igloo cooler for appropriate time. Cooler will hold temps. Recirculating through heat exchange only when temps drop x degrees below set point. Thermometer is in MLT.
3. Heat sparge water in HLT.
4. Pump first runnings wort from MLT to BK
5. Add sparge water to MLT
6. Pump second runnings wort from MLT to BK
7. Boil wort - using manual mode on PID
8. Recirculate wort via ??? to chill

Right now your use of "heat exchange" has been used in 2 different contexts (to heat up and chill down wort). These require further explanation.

Or I'm completely wrong.

I believe that he is setting up either a HERM or RIM heating system whereby the wort is constantly recirculated during the mash and the heater is used to control mash temperature. This has the added benefit of being able to precisely control mash temperatures and with the added ability to do stepped mashes and mash-out without adding additional water. Quite popular actually.

I ordered a Mypin TA4 for my univessel eBIAB setup and then figured out that I'd need another way to control boil. I ended up making a PWM circuit to drive the SSR to control the boil and use a switch to select the input for the SSR. This system works quite well. For a dedicated boil kettle, a PWM would be all that you needed since that is what the manual mode is doing on the controller.

stlbeer said:

I've reread this thread twice now and I still don't have a clear sense of what it is you're trying to accomplish.

If you could give us a complete run down of how you are planning to brew then you will likely get more assistance on how to accomplish your goal. Something like this:

1. Heat strike water to temp using 5500w 240v water heater element in HLT. Using PID to reach/maintain temps.
2. Mash in Igloo cooler for appropriate time. Cooler will hold temps. Recirculating through heat exchange only when temps drop x degrees below set point. Thermometer is in MLT.
3. Heat sparge water in HLT.
4. Pump first runnings wort from MLT to BK
5. Add sparge water to MLT
6. Pump second runnings wort from MLT to BK
7. Boil wort - using manual mode on PID
8. Recirculate wort via ??? to chill

Right now your use of "heat exchange" has been used in 2 different contexts (to heat up and chill down wort). These require further explanation.

Or I'm completely wrong.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's confusing to me to but I suppose it's accurate, as I was informed in another thread. The HLT heat exchanger (which is just a 50' coil of copper running thru the HLT) and the chiller plate to cool the wort.



Aside from that your outline of the process I planned is spot on. Is there a problem with it? Is it counter productive to only pump from the MT to the coil in the HLT when the temp drops or am I better off running it all the time?

pvtschultz said:

I believe that he is setting up either a HERM or RIM heating system whereby the wort is constantly recirculated during the mash and the heater is used to control mash temperature. This has the added benefit of being able to precisely control mash temperatures and with the added ability to do stepped mashes and mash-out without adding additional water. Quite popular actually.

Click to expand...

I agree. My system is a RIMS.

pvtschultz said:

I ordered a Mypin TA4 for my univessel eBIAB setup and then figured out that I'd need another way to control boil. I ended up making a PWM circuit to drive the SSR to control the boil and use a switch to select the input for the SSR. This system works quite well. For a dedicated boil kettle, a PWM would be all that you needed since that is what the manual mode is doing on the controller.

Click to expand...

Agree with you here too. I built a PWM and got it functional before I bought a PID with a PWM built in.

deadboy said:

Aside from that your outline of the process I planned is spot on. Is there a problem with it? Is it counter productive to only pump from the MT to the coil in the HLT when the temp drops or am I better off running it all the time?

Click to expand...

For a recirculation technique like a HERMS (which is what you describe) you should run the pump continuously during the mash. It will keep the temperature of your mash closer to your desired temperature.

There you go then. Well, I've already bought the PID so I'll still install it as just a digital thermometer I guess. Then if something comes up where I need it I suppose it'll be ready.

Back to the TD4 series, how do you set it to control the duty cycle in manual mode. I've got mine working off the thermocouple but I can't figure out how to operate the manual mode. The instructions are somewhat cryptic.

Ravenshead said:

Back to the TD4 series, how do you set it to control the duty cycle in manual mode. I've got mine working off the thermocouple but I can't figure out how to operate the manual mode. The instructions are somewhat cryptic.

Click to expand...

Have you figured it out.

No. I think their definition of manual mode means not in auto-tune not %-duty cycle. I gave up and ordered an Auber. It came in yesterday and I love the fact that it's instructions were written by an "English is my first language" author. Much easier to figure out.

I'll use the Mypins for fermentation control and what-not.

I know this is an old thread but I figured out how to get the TD4 to go manual mode. You've got to have a probe attached or else it doesn't work:
-- Press the SET button to switch to output display mode. The left-most LED will glow red. SV will report the duty cycle.
-- Press and hold the <</M button for 3 seconds. The right-most LED will glow green.
-- Press and release the <</M button to enter 'edit' mode, the right-most digit will flash.
-- Use the up and down buttons to set the duty cycle. The duty cycle will change as you adjust the value.
-- Press SET to lock in the value.

CapnBry said:

I know this is an old thread but I figured out how to get the TD4 to go manual mode. You've got to have a probe attached or else it doesn't work:
-- Press the SET button to switch to output display mode. The left-most LED will glow red. SV will report the duty cycle.
-- Press and hold the <</M button for 3 seconds. The right-most LED will glow green.
-- Press and release the <</M button to enter 'edit' mode, the right-most digit will flash.
-- Use the up and down buttons to set the duty cycle. The duty cycle will change as you adjust the value.
-- Press SET to lock in the value.

Click to expand...

Does the TD4 work as well as the aubers ?

For a TA4-SNR, if there isn't a specific manual mode couldn't you make a pseudo manual mode using the proportional band and temp setting? Technically the proportional band is what controls the duty cycle.

I've never tried this, but here's what I would do to get a "Manual Mode"

Set P value to 100 and turn both I and D off.

Why? Since P is a temp multiplier each degree difference between your set value and actual temp will change your duty cycle by 1%.

Example: If your actual temp is 100 degrees and your set temp is 150 degrees then the duty cycle is 50% (Temp diff / P value) = 50 / 100 = 50%

Every degree you raise the set temp from the actual temp will increase the "On Time" by 1% of the duty cycle.

On Brew day I would make my set temp something like 300F, the duty cycle will run at 100% until it goes above 200F. When you reach a strong boil, just lower the set temp until you have a nice steady boil.

If you don't care about the BK temp, then you could leave the probe out of the kettle and just use the air temp as your control temp and not have to worry about the actual temp changing.

CapnBry said:

I know this is an old thread but I figured out how to get the TD4 to go manual mode. You've got to have a probe attached or else it doesn't work:
-- Press the SET button to switch to output display mode. The left-most LED will glow red. SV will report the duty cycle.
-- Press and hold the <</M button for 3 seconds. The right-most LED will glow green.
-- Press and release the <</M button to enter 'edit' mode, the right-most digit will flash.
-- Use the up and down buttons to set the duty cycle. The duty cycle will change as you adjust the value.
-- Press SET to lock in the value.

Click to expand...

Thank you!
I can confirm this works great and is easy to set once you know how!
I have both the Ta7,TD4 and a rex c100 model pids and the td4 is the best one hands down followed by the TA model which works great and fast for the hlt... the Rex c100 is pretty lame in comparison with terrible directions and only celcius readouts...
Plus as others have stated of the 3 only the TD4 has the manual mode. Its easy to operate for me and fairly intuitive. The other plus is you can buy the td4 for $25 shipped from us sellers on eBay.
So far I've only done test runs heating and maintaining water but the elements (4500w) made quick work of my 7 gallon test run size!!
here is a pic showing the lights indicating manual mode at 40%
(Yes my elements are off in the pic)

Do all these non-Auber PIDs come with a thermocouple or what are people using? Looking for cheaper options as compared to the RTD sensors on Aubers site.

KPSquared said:

Do all these non-Auber PIDs come with a thermocouple or what are people using? Looking for cheaper options as compared to the RTD sensors on Aubers site.

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You could use the same pt-100 sensors you would with the auber or buy one of the many from eBay ranging from $5-25.... they have the ones with 1/2" npt threads for $15....
Btw rtds are not thermocouples... those are the cheaper inferior alternative .
You could also buy the mypin pid with the ssr, heat sink and pt-100 rtd for about $35 shipped on eBay or amazon or even new egg..

Not to Canada for that price. . . That's why I ask. I can get other PIDs for cheaper to Canada but was wondering about sensor options.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Dual-Display...LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2575842022&_uhb=1

KPSquared said:

Not to Canada for that price. . . That's why I ask. I can get other PIDs for cheaper to Canada but was wondering about sensor options.

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Yeah they are 9 bucks more to Canada.

That link ends up at $53 for me. Import charges, shipping, etc. At that price I may as well go to Auber. I can get the N2006P for $25 shipped.

KPSquared said:

That link ends up at $53 for me. Import charges, shipping, etc. At that price I may as well go to Auber. I can get the N2006P for $25 shipped.

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I was not aware you had to pay additional charges on top of shipping I somehow missed the $8 import charge.... funny the auber is like $45 here in the states..does that auber have the manual mode for use on a boil kettle?

Sorry, the N2006P isn't Auber. It's another eBay special. I already have a 40A SSR so I'm just looking for a cheap control option.

KPSquared said:

Sorry, the N2006P isn't Auber. It's another eBay special. I already have a 40A SSR so I'm just looking for a cheap control option.

Click to expand...

If its for your boil kettle you will regret not having the manual control of the boil intensity.

The N2006P has manual mode. I'm also incorporating a PWM knob so I really don't need manual mode.