Multi stage dry hop: is it worth it?

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dickproenneke

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I'm attempting a FW wookie jack clone. The recipe calls for a 2 stage dry hop. 1oz each Amarillo/citra for 3 days, pull em out and then add another 1oz Amarillo/citra for 4 days. Why not just add 1.5oz each for 7 days? What are the benefits of multi stage dry hopping with the same hop varieties?
 
I have done this clone.. its good.. but I had the same concerns. following this thread. :)
 
I finished reading both For the Love of Hops and IPA. Their head brewer on there talks about dry hopping. Saying her prefers no more than 3-4 days for dry hopping because he believes it is at the point of diminishing returns. It probably does not matter.
 
I've been debating this same thing.. I'm following a recipe for Double Jack and they recommend a 3 step clone. I'd love to know the science behind it.. I'd prefer not to open up my fermentor more than i have to.
 
I just brewed this clone and plan to dry hop with the first addition this weekend. I've never done a multi stage dry hop, so I figure I'll give it a shot...
 
I've been debating this same thing.. I'm following a recipe for Double Jack and they recommend a 3 step clone. I'd love to know the science behind it.. I'd prefer not to open up my fermentor more than i have to.

EXACTLY! I'd rather not risk oxidation, or to a lesser extent contamination, if it's not absolutely necessary... I'm very much a noob so my experience with brewing is very limited. I have DH'd only 5 times, usually for 7days, and have never picked up any grassy flavors. Maybe it's just the hop varieties I'm using or maybe it's the temps that I DH at... I have a buddy who DH'd an APA with 2oz zythos for 7 days and it definitely had some grassy/vegital flavors going on.
 
oxidation does diminish hop presence so its a good idea to keep it to a minimum when dry hopping. I have done a 10g batch split into 2 5g kegs with different dry hopping techniques. one was a heavy single dry hop and the other was same weight and variety but split into 2 additions. The double dry hop had a much more complex and bright nose. If you keg your beers and are worried about oxidation from opening the keg so many times, just add your dry hops to the keg, flush it with CO2 and then pressure transfer to that keg with a jumper from the previous keg with the first dry hop addition. This means almost no chance of oxygen contact and thus no oxidation risk
 
oxidation does diminish hop presence so its a good idea to keep it to a minimum when dry hopping. I have done a 10g batch split into 2 5g kegs with different dry hopping techniques. one was a heavy single dry hop and the other was same weight and variety but split into 2 additions. The double dry hop had a much more complex and bright nose.

:rockin: That sounds like a tasty experiment you got going on there!

If you keg your beers and are worried about oxidation from opening the keg so many times, just add your dry hops to the keg, flush it with CO2 and then pressure transfer to that keg with a jumper from the previous keg with the first dry hop addition. This means almost no chance of oxygen contact and thus no oxidation risk

I wish that I had kegging gear, but alas, I am just a bottler :(
 
Hop oils come in a range of chemical weights. The heavier ones, we call flavor; lighter ones, aroma. The longer the hops are in the beer, the wider range of oils that are extracted. A two-stage dry hopping would get mostly the lightest oils, whereas a longer period would also extract the heavier oils.
 
david_42 said:
Hop oils come in a range of chemical weights. The heavier ones, we call flavor; lighter ones, aroma. The longer the hops are in the beer, the wider range of oils that are extracted. A two-stage dry hopping would get mostly the lightest oils, whereas a longer period would also extract the heavier oils.

Eureka! This is exactly what I was looking for. Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the plain English explanation, David.

Now I gotta try to dance the Firestone 2-step!
 
So I am gearing up to try this 2 stage DH thing, but I'm a little conflicted about something... What's the best way to go about steeping the 1st DH addition in a bucket? Can't i just tie the hop sack to a length of fishing line so that I can easily pull it out when the time comes? How would you guys do it?
 
Hop oils come in a range of chemical weights. The heavier ones, we call flavor; lighter ones, aroma. The longer the hops are in the beer, the wider range of oils that are extracted. A two-stage dry hopping would get mostly the lightest oils, whereas a longer period would also extract the heavier oils.

So your saying dry hopping longer would get more flavor? I have been doing multistage dry hopping on the last few IPAs and I am very happy with the results. I have been going hop crazy lately though and if I could find a way would probably incorporate them into my bowl of breakfast cereal.
 
Oxygenation would be more of an issue if using a bucket. If you want to multi-stage dryhop in the primary with ease, I would go with a carboy. A carboy (primary not secondary) that is 1/2 to 3/4 filled with beer will have a denser C02 blanket than a full one. Unless you're swirling the carboy around in open air or taking your sweet time to add the dryhops, you should still have a dense C02 blanket whenever you briefly remove the airlock and add the dryhops.

Pellets would work better for this application since they are easier to work with and release their oils faster. Add pellet hops to a large, weighted drawstring mesh bag. Secure the string around the carboy neck. Wait 3 days. With every addition, discard the old, and add the new until 6, 9, or 12 days is reached. Contamination shouldn't be an issue. Hops are sanitary to begin with. And the mesh bag will remain in the carboy until you rack. If kegging, you can add your last bagged dryhop addition in the keg.
 
I read this yesterday that gives the clone for Pliny the Elder.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/zymurgy/free-downloads

It's the 5th PDF down "Double IPA" and gives Vinne's reasoning behind the multi-dry-hopping process. Sounds like leaving the hops in can have several negative affects, including REDUCING the overall hop flavor/aroma which is the whole point of dry-hopping in the first place.
 
Oxygenation would be more of an issue if using a bucket. If you want to multi-stage dryhop in the primary with ease, I would go with a carboy. A carboy (primary not secondary) that is 1/2 to 3/4 filled with beer will have a denser C02 blanket than a full one. Unless you're swirling the carboy around in open air or taking your sweet time to add the dryhops, you should still have a dense C02 blanket whenever you briefly remove the airlock and add the dryhops.

So the standard 6.5 gallon carboy wouldn't be big enough for a 5 gal batch, huh?
 
So the standard 6.5 gallon carboy wouldn't be big enough for a 5 gal batch, huh?

It would. When did I ever say that it would not? My point was that headspace in the primary carboy is a good thing when it comes to maintaining a dense, rich C02 blanket.
 
It would. When did I ever say that it would not? My point was that headspace in the primary carboy is a good thing when it comes to maintaining a dense, rich C02 blanket.

Sorry, I was going off of the "50-75%" figure. But I get it now. The goal is to maintain the CO2 blanket while swapping DH additions and a carboy is better at doing that than a bucket.
 
Hop oils come in a range of chemical weights. The heavier ones, we call flavor; lighter ones, aroma. The longer the hops are in the beer, the wider range of oils that are extracted. A two-stage dry hopping would get mostly the lightest oils, whereas a longer period would also extract the heavier oils.

This doesn't explain the difference between, say, a 2 stage dry-hop with each stage consisting of 2 ounces and lasting three days, and a single stage dry hop of 4 ounces lasting three days. At some point I imagine that having less hops in a beer at a time would increase efficiency of extraction, especially with whole hops, but it's hard for me to believe that a couple of ounces of pellets makes much of a difference. It also bugs me that people treat whole and pellet dry hopping as equivalent, even though we know that pellets extract more quickly.
 
Sorry, I was going off of the "50-75%" figure. But I get it now. The goal is to maintain the CO2 blanket while swapping DH additions and a carboy is better at doing that than a bucket.

Yes, but FYI 5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon carboy is approx. 3/4 of the 6.5 volume

6.5 / 4 = 1.625 x 4.875
 
This doesn't explain the difference between, say, a 2 stage dry-hop with each stage consisting of 2 ounces and lasting three days, and a single stage dry hop of 4 ounces lasting three days.

This is exactly why I started this thread. I understand what David is saying in his comment (lighter molecules being called into play during a 72hour DHing, not the heavy ones called at 7 days) but it still doesn't explain why 2-2oz DH additions @ 3 days each is any different than 1-4oz DH @ 3days... I've read the Vinnie C article on brewing 2xIPAs (Zymurgy July/Aug09) which touches on multiple DH additions, but he never really explains why it's preferable over a large single DH addition. He does state that if you leave the DH in the beer too long you can lose some aroma.
 
I emailed Matt Brynildson (Firestone Walker) about this question. Here is his response:

We know that yeast activity can result in positive changes to hop oils.
Adding hops toward the end of fermentation (or during fermentation for
that matter) can result in some positive aroma compounds that carry
through to the finished product. The problem is that hop oils can be
scrubbed out of the beer through fermentation (CO2 evolution) and there
are losses due to hop components (oils and resins) adhering to the yeast
cell and being removed from the beer. In other words, dry hopping in the
presence of yeast has some proven positive flavor effects but negative
extraction effects. Once the yeast has been largely removed from the
beer, there is opportunity for better extraction of raw hop character. So
we do both. We try to take advantage of both possible extraction
opportunities and our belief is that we get a more well rounded hop aroma
with high overall hop impact.

The theoretical justification could be argued and certainly great beers
are made with single dry hop additions. The boys at Lagunitas do a single
hop pellet addition for dry hopping and they get a very high hop impact.
You could compare a Union Jack and a Lagunitas IPA and decide which method
you prefer (of course the hop variety, time on the hops, amount of hops
and temperature of the dry hop all play into the equation.)

There are very few straight answers in brewing.
 
Thanks for this info. Matt is certainly a master at his craft. I have yet to taste a FW brew that I didn't like... So what MAtt is saying is that the 1st DH addition is added while primary fermentation is still taking place (in the presence of yeast). The green beer takes on some of the properties of the DH but others, like certain aromas(?), are scrubbed out by the CO2. The result being decidedly different than a beer DH'd after primary fermentation. The 2nd DH then brings some of those properties, lost by CO2 scrubbing, back into the final beer... Heavy stuff but I think I got it.
:mug:
 
Thanks for asking the question. I'm surprised that this issue hasn't been discussed more, considering what a big part of the flavor of an IPA dry hopping is. I think for my next IPA I'll add a small addition just after high krausen, then a larger addition after fermentation is complete.

The real work to be done is determining which hops (or, ideally, which hop compounds) work best as late kettle, whirlpool, first dry hop, or second dry hop additions. It's a tall order, and we may never get there, but I think we should start experimenting under this paradigm if we really want to improve our IPAs.
 
Thanks for asking the question. I'm surprised that this issue hasn't been discussed more, considering what a big part of the flavor of an IPA dry hopping is. I think for my next IPA I'll add a small addition just after high krausen, then a larger addition after fermentation is complete.

I think I'll try the same technique but not after full krausen. I'll wait until fermentation is complete and yeast is in suspension then dry hop on primary, rack to secondary, then dry hop there too. It should be a fun beer.
 
ShinyBuddha said:
I think I'll try the same technique but not after full krausen. I'll wait until fermentation is complete and yeast is in suspension then dry hop on primary, rack to secondary, then dry hop there too. It should be a fun beer.

My thoughts exactly.
 
Thanks for asking the question. I'm surprised that this issue hasn't been discussed more, considering what a big part of the flavor of an IPA dry hopping is. I think for my next IPA I'll add a small addition just after high krausen, then a larger addition after fermentation is complete.

You can try that. However, reading the IPA book (or maybe it was an interview) that first addition is towards the end of fermentation. Perhaps the last 25% of fermentation or just few gravity points from the FG. I would think that doing it too soon would strip out too much of the benefits of dry hopping.
 
I guess it would depend on how flocculant the yeast I'm using is. The general idea would be to maximize whatever benefit the yeast/hop combination provides with the first dry hop (hence to make sure that most of the yeast is still active and in suspension), and rely on a massive second dry hop to make up for whatever I lose. Here's a quote from tnlandsailor based on one of Matt's talks that he attended (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/dry-hop-ipa-64751/index2.html#post668593):

Once the beer starts fermenting in the primary, let it reach high krausen and then start to crash (about 1 day or so after high krausen). Fermentation is still going on, but at a lower activity level. Add your dry hops to the primary at this point and let the beer continue to ferment with the dry hops for 3 days total. After 3 days, fermentation should be complete and the beer should be racked to a secondary.
 
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