(Home made) PBW - safe for glass? (Safe in general?)

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ryno1ryno said:
I am seriously thinking that Oxyclean Free will be good enough for me as the time it takes to make a special batch of the TSP and Oxy seems to be similar to rinsing twice. The third rinse will be during sanitizing before use anyway.

Sound reasonable?

I agree. I haven't been brewing long, but is assume that straight oxi free would do the trick. I would think that the sanitizing part would be the most important.
 
Shooter said:
Now, once I figure out how to synthesize backing soda and hydrogen peroxide from items in my panty, I'll no longer be beholding to the man!!!!

Awesome post!
 
From SOAPGOODS.COM

Sodium Percarbonate Information

Sodium Percarbonate Detailed MSDS
Percentages:
Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate: > 85.0%
Sodium Carbonate Approx = 13.0%
Sodium Silicate Approx = 1.5%

See detailed msds for more details. (above)

Sodium percarbonate is a white crystalline water-soluble adduct of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. Sodium percarbonate is the active ingredient in many powdered oxygen eco-friendly bleach products, including OxiClean.

It is an oxidizing agent and ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products. Despite the name, it is, in fact, a carbonate perhydrate. Dissolved in water, it releases hydrogen peroxide and soda ash (sodium carbonate)
 
The 70/30 mix of oxy free and TSP/90 can and does work just as well as PBW. That dude earlier in the thread who said it doesn't, is doing it wrong.
 
You don't want to use the standard OxiClean Versatile Stain Remover on your brewing equipment because it's scented and you want to avoid anything with any dyes, perfumes or fragrances.

The OxiClean Free is hard to find, not sure if they even make it any more. The Target Up and Up oxygen cleaner also is not listed on their site.

The best thing that I found is Seventh Generation Natural Oxy Stain Remover. It is "Free of optical brighteners, dyes, perfumes, and synthetic fragrances". 50 Ounce container is only $6.49 on Amazon as an add-on item, which means it ships free if the order is at least $25 and all items are shipping from Amazon.
 
FYI - OxiClean Free on Amazon has jumped to $13+ for a 3lb tub. A much cheaper alternative is GreenWorks Oxi Stain Remover. It is free of dyes and perfumes and only costs $7.50. A 1lb bag of Red Devil TSP is $6.39 so for less than $14 it will make 4.5lb of homemade PBW.
 
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FYI - OxiClean Free on Amazon has jumped to $13+ for a 3lb tub. A much cheaper alternative is GreenWorks Oxi Stain Remover. It is free of dyes and perfumes and only costs $7.50. A 1lb bag of Red Devil TSP is $6.39 so for less than $14 it will make 4.5lb of homemade PBW.

The Seventh Generation Natural Oxy Stain Remover already has the Sodium Metasilicate in it and is cheaper.
 
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I use a 2:1 mixture of Sun Oxygen Cleaner:TSP/90. It's pretty much as close a chemical equivalent you can get to PBW.
 
It may sound strange, but I've been using Cascade Professional unscented detergent lately. It still has phosphates which help a lot with my water. It costs $70 shipped for a case of 6 , 85oz boxes. That comes out to about $2.26 a pound. I'm finding it works really well for me.

http://www.restockit.com/cascade-automatic-dishwasher-detergent-85-oz-(34953pg).html

Edit: Actually, it looks like the free shipping is for over $150, but shipping a case for me is $8.99. Not as good as I thought, but not too bad.
 
I just made some PBW from the info in this thread and am very disappointed. I used 70% Sun Oxy Cleaner and 30% Red Devil TSP/90. The Sun Oxy cleaner is sodium carbonate (cas # 497-19-8) and sodium percarbonate (cas # 15630-89-4). Nothing else. The Red Devil TSP/90 is 100% sodium metasilicate (cas # 6834-92-0).

I have used PBW for the last few years and thought it was great. It would clean anything and would rinse away fine. This homebrew, though, is awful. It seems to clean OK, but it leaves a thick, white chalky coating on everything unless you immediately scrub with soapy water and a scrubby. I just unscrewed my temp probe after running the solution through my system (at 150 degrees) and was horrified at what I saw. The coating would not come off with an aggressive scrubbing with dish detergent and hot water. I decided to leave it on to see if I could find something that will take it off without much effort so I could clean my HERMS coil with it. Oh, my poor herms coil!

Has anyone experienced this? Is there something else I can add to the mixture to prevent this terrible coating from accumulating on everything?
 
I've been using a mix of savogran TSP from HD and oxyclean free (30/70 or so). Never had any problems like you describe. Is the oxy cleaner you are using free of perfumes and dyes? Maybe could be something to do with the water profile where you are, or the concentration you are using.
 
I just made some PBW from the info in this thread and am very disappointed. I used 70% Sun Oxy Cleaner and 30% Red Devil TSP/90. The Sun Oxy cleaner is sodium carbonate (cas # 497-19-8) and sodium percarbonate (cas # 15630-89-4). Nothing else. The Red Devil TSP/90 is 100% sodium metasilicate (cas # 6834-92-0).

I have used PBW for the last few years and thought it was great. It would clean anything and would rinse away fine. This homebrew, though, is awful. It seems to clean OK, but it leaves a thick, white chalky coating on everything unless you immediately scrub with soapy water and a scrubby. I just unscrewed my temp probe after running the solution through my system (at 150 degrees) and was horrified at what I saw. The coating would not come off with an aggressive scrubbing with dish detergent and hot water. I decided to leave it on to see if I could find something that will take it off without much effort so I could clean my HERMS coil with it. Oh, my poor herms coil!

Has anyone experienced this? Is there something else I can add to the mixture to prevent this terrible coating from accumulating on everything?

You might try star san. I think the acid will take the scale off.

I didn't have good luck with this mixture when I tried it a year or so ago either. My carboys would get deposits that I'd have to remove. I think that has to do with it not having the phosphates and chelating agents that PBW has - possibly a hard water issue. I'm not really sure, but that's why I went to the old formula dishwashing detergent (Cascade professional- not the stuff in stores).

It's hard to beat PBW though and by the time you add all of the other things to the homemade version you may as well buy it IMO.
 
It seems that PBW contains:

Sodium metasilicate: 10-30%
sodium percarbonate: 25 - 40%
polyalkylphosphonic acid (chelate): 3 - 8%
Surfactant: 2 - 6%
sodium carbonate (builder): balance

So the chelate and the surfactant that are lacking in PBW homebrews could make enough of a difference that you're seeing a film of calcium deposits that doesn't rinse off.

As an experiment, try using distilled water and see if you still see the white film or not. That will at least tell you if it has to do with your water or if the formula itself is the problem.

By the way, Cascade dishwashing detergent may contain SODIUM HYPOCHLORITE (chlorine bleach), which can not only pit stainless steel but also leave a toxic residue that can effect your beer if not fully rinsed off.
 
By the way, Cascade dishwashing detergent may contain SODIUM HYPOCHLORITE (chlorine bleach), which can not only pit stainless steel but also leave a toxic residue that can effect your beer if not fully rinsed off.

A couple of things to clarify. The Cascade professional line detergent that I have (no. 34953) does not contain sodium hypochlorite. It does contain sodium dichloroisocyanurate dihydrate. How those behave differently is beyond me, but it doesn't smell particularly 'bleachy' and I've left it in stainless vessels for several days without issue. It also rinses easily with no ill effects on the beer. Would I soak it for a week? Well no, but I wouldn't do that with any cleaner and I'd hope people would rinse well with whatever they're using!

I believe it is the old Cascade formula. However, it looks like this product has been recently discontinued and is being replaced by something new.
 
I was just reading up on Better Bottle's site and they don't recommend aggressive detergents and caustics. (A 0.5% solution of PBW will have a pH approaching 12, whch is quite caustic.)

They recommend using enzyme-enhanced neutral detergents for washing BetterBottle carboys and fittings, the ones they mentioned are Seventh Generation Free and Clear Natural & Super Pro-zyme Enzymatic Cleaner.

They also say to never use stiff brushes, abrasive scouring pads, or cleansers, but instead put a small, thick rag, such as a face cloth or an piece of an old bath towel, inside a BetterBottle carboy with the detergent solution, to speed the removal of stubborn debris much more effectively than using a brush, which might scratch the surface.

From their site:

"If you use other types of washing agents (PBW etc.), be sure to dilute them in a bucket to the concentrations recommended by their manufacturers for routine cleaning and minimize the exposure of your equipment. Higher concentrations and long contact times should not be necessary and will likely shorten the useful life of your equipment."

"BetterBottle has tested mild, enzyme-enhanced, environmentally friendly detergents (Seventh Generation Free and Clear Natural & Super Pro-zyme Enzymatic Cleaner ), and found them to be very effective and essentially harmless to most equipment, even with weeks of exposure"

http://www.better-bottle.com/technical.html
 
I just made some PBW from the info in this thread and am very disappointed. I used 70% Sun Oxy Cleaner and 30% Red Devil TSP/90. The Sun Oxy cleaner is sodium carbonate (cas # 497-19-8) and sodium percarbonate (cas # 15630-89-4). Nothing else. The Red Devil TSP/90 is 100% sodium metasilicate (cas # 6834-92-0).

I have used PBW for the last few years and thought it was great. It would clean anything and would rinse away fine. This homebrew, though, is awful. It seems to clean OK, but it leaves a thick, white chalky coating on everything unless you immediately scrub with soapy water and a scrubby. I just unscrewed my temp probe after running the solution through my system (at 150 degrees) and was horrified at what I saw. The coating would not come off with an aggressive scrubbing with dish detergent and hot water. I decided to leave it on to see if I could find something that will take it off without much effort so I could clean my HERMS coil with it. Oh, my poor herms coil!

Has anyone experienced this? Is there something else I can add to the mixture to prevent this terrible coating from accumulating on everything?

I have had the exact same problem with the exact same brands you are using and it coats my HERMS coil as well. It also leaves a ring around the water level that I have to scrub off if it sits for too long. I have found that it helps a little if I use hotter water (170+), stir in the mixture, and don't let it sit for too long.

For a test, I put some homemade stuff in one kettle and PBW in another. The PBW didn't leave any residue while the homemade stuff left a bunch that I actually had to scrub off. I have noticed that straight up oxyclean/Sun will leave a white powdery film on stuff after it dries.
 
Sounds like you guys may have hard water. Have you tried the same comparison using distilled?

After reading the methods recommended by Better Bottle, I use cleaning agents very sparingly, wipe with a thick rag and rinse immediately.

I use a mixture of Seventh Generation Oxy Free & Clear, Seventh Generation Free & Clear Detergent, and TSP/90. Haven't noticed any white film but I never let it sit for long.
 
I just ordered 10 lbs of 99% Sodium Percarbonate from Amazon and 4 lbs of Red Devil TSP 90 from Ace Hardware. Shipping was free or in-store pick up. Mixing the two together gave me an approximately 70/30% product. It worked out to about $2.67 per lb.
 
Let us know how it works out.

I tried it tonight on two 6.5 gallon carboys that I did not have a chance to do anything else but rinse once last week. There was still plenty of brown sediment in each one. I put in about a 5 oz. of DIY PBW and filled them with water and let them sit for about 90 minutes. You could see that the sediment inside was literally being pushed out of the opening once it fell off the sides and came off the bottom. Then I drained them, refilled them with clean water and drained them again. Each carboy was crystal clean and I didn't need to use a brush. If I was to do this again I would probably rinse them twice, just to make sure - but I was really happy with the results. I should mention that I have very soft water.

My next "test" is to run a continuous circuit of 20 gallons of water at 160F and the appropriate amount of DIY PBW through my containers, hop rocket, chiller, hoses, and pumps for 20 minutes. Then rinse once with 20 gallons of clean water, and then again with 20 gallons of boiling water. I'll let you know how it goes.

Follow-up 4.21.14: Two things that I've noticed are (1) more of the powder gets dissolved if you use warm water in the carboys. I'm using water @125F and it washes out very well, leaving no deposit. (2) I have noticed very small grains on the bottom of my kettles at the end of the first wash, and will have to experiment with the two chemicals mentioned above. These washed away with boiling water and there was no deposit, so I'm not worrying too much.

Attached is a picture of the 10# bag of sodium percarbonate that I got from Amazon.com.

sodium percarbonate .jpg
 
Wash to clean hoses and other equipment went fine; using 125F water in carboys left them sparkling. I do notice some residue on the bottom of the carboys after the first wash; this is gone by the end of the second wash if I'm careful to swirl it out of the container.

At approximately $5/lb including shipping for 55# of commercial PBW, I'm currently on the fence. Sure, commercial PBW is more expensive, but it seems to contain some additives that my DIY project does not, and these might contribute to the overall effectiveness of the product.
 
Try using 160F water ...My jar of PBW says 160F for CIP thats what I always aim for.

I just checked the pdf and it says 130-180F now depending on soil load.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWTech.pdf

I also always spray or run star-san on stuff treated with PBW also....I think the star san reacts with the low PH or something like that, with the residue of PBW ....as to not leave one.
 
Try using 160F water ...My jar of PBW says 160F for CIP thats what I always aim for.

I just checked the pdf and it says 130-180F now depending on soil load.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWTech.pdf

I also always spray or run star-san on stuff treated with PBW also....I think the star san reacts with the low PH or something like that, with the residue of PBW ....as to not leave one.

Agreed. I'm using it at 160F with hoses and stainless steel containers, with a rinse with boiling water at the end to sterilize everything. With carboys I'm leery of going that high, so I rinse several times with 125F water. As long as I'm careful to swirl at the end of the first wash, I don't get any residue. Next winter when I switch to conical fermenters it won't be an issue. I've switched to brewer's iodine for carboy sterilization; for some reason I just don't like StarSan unless it's been rinsed off.
 
You are correct. The term that I should have used is "sanitize." To sanitize is to reduce the level of bacteria, yeast, mold etc. to the point where they won't infect the beer. To sterilize is to kill all organisms. Flushing my system with 20 gallons of boiling water, after recirculating with PBW and then again with 160F water, should sanitize my lines and containers to an acceptable level for brewing.
 
That said, that warning is on a package of 100% sodium metasilicate, not a diluted down version. I mean, if Five Star are saying "Yes, PBW is 70/30 sodium percarbonate/sodium metasilicate" then surely the homemade version using those exact ingredients should be the same?.

While I cannot comment on the contents of PBW (I would really like to know! as I use a lot and would like to save $$$). I would do a test for sure. Keep in mind safety precautions.

The warning about 100% sodium metasilicate does deserve investigation. There are lots of other products out there that we use which are safe in lower concentrations that we use everyday like Hydrogen Peroxide (3% solution for cuts, 6% solution for beauty products (need gloves at this point), and 30% solution which is corrosive you don't want this on your hands or in your eyes.) or Vinegar (~5% Acetic acid).

I think anyone making there own should familiarize themselves with the safety of sodium metasilicate in various concentrations.
 
I just wanted to follow-up as it's been a few months since I last posted. Overall, I would rate this project a success. My hoses, glass, and stainless containers get clean with my DIY PBW method (above). I would say that the only caveats are to remember to rinse well if you are using it at a lower tempeature for carboys, and to use eye protection and gloves when using the product.

I've been able to use it with no ill-effect on a variety of household projects as well. I was even able to disolve a residue/stain on a glass decanter that had resisted numerous soakings with other products. The decanter is now "crystal clean."
 
Yerp. Having used the "homemade PBW" for a few years now, I've had zero issues.
 
I've done the 5 parts pbw to 3 parts tsp/90 to 2 parts 7th generation dishwasher powder as is the full recipe enumerated in the other thread.

It leaves crappy white deposits on everything. PBW didn't do that. I imagine it's something to do with the exact water chemistry I have.

I think I'm going to just eventually use a CIP setup with half-strength pbw in the future to save money.
 
FWIW, I am going to try to add a Chelating ingredient to my 70/30 mix and see what that does.

https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/Tetrasodium_EDTA/177/

At a useable rate of 0.2%, in a 10 pound batch, that puts it at 0.8oz per batch. You can get 4.4oz on Amazon now for under $10. So that will add about $2 per 10 pound batch.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005VEDTEO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

You can get it cheaper if you buy 5 pounds, but that would prolly make like 500 pounds of cleaner.

We'll see how it goes. :hs:
 
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