Saison du BUFF help

I have never made my own grain bill before. My wife loves Saison du BUFF and wants me to try it out. Stone Brewery brought 40 kegs to the Alewife in Baltimore on Oct 1. I went, talked to Greg Koch about it and he gave me some tips. I just got the actual grains used emailed to me today, but didn't get the amounts.

Here is what I have:

What did the abv come out at on this beer? 6.8%
IBU's? 50
Special ingredients? Pilsner malt, wheat malt and flaked rye. Centennial, Amarillo and Citra hops, parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Tasting notes? Citrusy and sage/rosemary.

This is what I have come up with so far.

Pilsen 2 row 9.0
Wheat Malt 1.0
Flaked Rye 1.0

Mash @ 152 for 60 minutes

Centennial 1.0 oz @ 60
Amarillo 1.0 oz @ 15
Citra 1.0 oz @ 0

Sage 15%
Rosemary 15%
Thyme 15%
Parsley 55%

Total of 3 oz of herbs at whirlpool stage.

Yeast Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse Ale @ 77 for 2 weeks

What do you think? Any ideas on this brew?

Maybe mash a bit cooler if you want it to dry out more.

3 oz of herbs should be prominent in the final brew.

mash at 149 for 90 minutes

You may consider adding table sugar

start the ferment in the mid 60's and slowly jack up the temp over the course of a week to the mid 70's

go easy on the herbs.

This is probably a beer that you will need to make several times to dial in. Have Fun!

I've only had the beer once so I can't trust my memory too much, but I do remember it being a very dry beer. That definitely points to a lower mash temp as people have mentioned. I also think your grain bill is too low.

-6.8%ABV means there were 51 gravity points that were consumed during fermentation (6.8 * 7.5)
-At the lowest end of attenuation, I'm guessing it got 75%. That would point to an OG of 1.068. (51/.75)
-At the highest end, let's just say 85%. That would be an OG of 1.060 (51/.85)

So shoot for somewhere in the 1.060-1.070 range for your OG, which means you probably need to up the grains. I'd keep your wheat and rye at the same amounts and just boost the pils.

Also, do some research on how other people use Saison and Farmhouse yeasts. They're quite finicky, and don't be surprised if you have to pitch another strain at the end of fermentation just to finish it off. I've never made a saison so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd try to do a continually rising fermentation temp. And apparently over 85* will lead to stuck fermentation, so maybe start in the low 70s and work to 80*?

Unless they recommended the Wy#3726 to you, I'd suggest the #3711. You won't have to pamper it, and it will still give you a good flavor profile.

interesting thread. I really enjoyed the beer when I was visiting SD and ate at the brewery, I've heard there's no distribution in my area right now.

Keep us updated on your progress, I'd like to try cloning it myself.

Thanks everyone. I will take a few suggestions and put them into the brew. This is what my wife to be her "house beer" so I will be making this quite a few times. We still have a lot of BUFF around here, thanks to the fact I have a beach house 2 miles away from DFH brewery in Milton.

I will keep everyone updates. Thanks again, and feel free to continue to add suggestions!!!

Just an update. I am brewing this today. I will let everyone know how it is going / turns out. Thanks again for the input.

Interesting thread, DFH Saison du BUFF is one of the best beers I've had this year. Every time I buy a 4 pack I end up drinking the whole damn thing in one sitting! I can't stop myself! It's just that good! I have all three (Stone, Victory, DFH), and they are all excellent and distinctly different from one another. Thanks for posting the grain-bill, I am very curious to hear how it came out, and I will definitely be given this one a shot!

Cheers!

Brewtimore said:

This is what my wife to be her "house beer" so I will be making this quite a few times.

Click to expand...

Ouch. No pressure or anything. I'm in a similar situation with a request for a La Fin Du Monde clone. It has me worried about my latest batch.

I haven't tried the beer you are trying to clone. The recipe sounds interesting. I need to keep an eye out for it.

Keep us posted. I'm interested to hear about it.

So, how did this turn out?

Ernst-Haeckel said:

So, how did this turn out?

Click to expand...

It is pretty much spot on! I will have more details later tonight after I look at my notes. I used white labs yeast instead. 2nd batch is Kegged right now. That one is money too!

Brewtimore said:

It is pretty much spot on! I will have more details later tonight after I look at my notes. I used white labs yeast instead. 2nd batch is Kegged right now. That one is money too!

Click to expand...

I am sorry it has taken so long for me to get this brew up here. But here it is:
(sorry if the format is wrong, this is the first one I have put up)

Saison du BUFF

1.065 OG
1.014 FG
6.9 % ABV
35.6 IBU
4.6 SRM

Based on 70% Efficiency.

12 lbs Pilsner Malt 86%
1 lbs Wheat Malt 7%
1 lbs Flaked Rye 7%

1 oz Centennial 9% 60 Mins 25.7 IBU
1 oz Amarillo 7% 15 Mins 9.9 IBU
1 oz Citra 13.2% 0 Mins 0 IBU

1.1 oz Parsley 0 Mins/Whirlpool
.3 oz Rosemary 0 Mins/Whirlpool
.3 oz Sage 0 Mins/Whirlpool
.3 oz Thyme 0 Mins/Whirlpool

2 oz total.

I chopped the herbs to release the oils for flavor. It has a huge bite to it, but every person that has had this beer, loved the herb flavor. I can't keep the keg stocked enough with this beer.

Yeast - White Labs WLP566 Belgian Saison II Mash @ 149 for 90 Mins

Boil for 90 Mins

Ferment @ 80 for 3 weeks

** This recipe has worked very well for 3 beers in a row. I just brewed the fourth one yesterday. I am open to ideas and suggestions though. I would call this beer cloned.***

The one fermentation problem I am having is that it usually finishes in the 1.022 range. That yeast can stall out after 75% completion. It does say that it can I have not pitched another yeast on top of it to dry it out as of yet. WLP001 is the one that would be the best if I were to repitch.

Awesome, thanks for the update! I will brew this one up next month sometime, and I'll let you know how mine turns out!

The pic sure makes it look tasty!

"The one fermentation problem I am having is that it usually finishes in the 1.022 range."

Really high FG for a Saison. You want it dry, although I will say that I personally don't like my Saison as dry as Dupont or other notable Belgian/French Saison. I normally shoot for 1.007 and even then it is sweeter than the real deal. Saison yeast (3711 excepted) is notorious for sticking at 1.030 or 1.020 and it takes time to get it down into the single digits.

Montanaandy said:

"The one fermentation problem I am having is that it usually finishes in the 1.022 range."

Really high FG for a Saison. You want it dry, although I will say that I personally don't like my Saison as dry as Dupont or other notable Belgian/French Saison. I normally shoot for 1.007 and even then it is sweeter than the real deal. Saison yeast (3711 excepted) is notorious for sticking at 1.030 or 1.020 and it takes time to get it down into the single digits.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that has been the problem I have had. I have brewed a couple batches of this so far. Let some sit for a long time, pitched on top of a yeast cake, re-used yeast...

I still can't get it under 1.022. I have had quite a few people that have had both mine and the real thing and have called it cloned. I am going to pitch a WLP001 one time and try that out. I will post results when I get them.

Brewtimore said:

Yeah, that has been the problem I have had. I have brewed a couple batches of this so far. Let some sit for a long time, pitched on top of a yeast cake, re-used yeast...

I still can't get it under 1.022. I have had quite a few people that have had both mine and the real thing and have called it cloned. I am going to pitch a WLP001 one time and try that out. I will post results when I get them.

Click to expand...

Can't comment on Saison Du Buff or how it tastes because we can't get it around these parts. If your friends are saying that your clone approximates SDB at 1.022 then SDB must be a very sweet beer. Every French or Belgain Saison that I have ever had has been very dry and certainly taste drier than what I end up with even when I am in single digits on the FG.

The 3724 yeast will finish in the single digits IF you keep it around 85' and swirl the carboy every few days to keep the yeast in suspension. You can end up with a vey nice Saison in 3-4 weeks if you follow this.

Montanaandy said:

Can't comment on Saison Du Buff or how it tastes because we can't get it around these parts. If your friends are saying that your clone approximates SDB at 1.022 then SDB must be a very sweet beer. Every French or Belgain Saison that I have ever had has been very dry and certainly taste drier than what I end up with even when I am in single digits on the FG.

The 3724 yeast will finish in the single digits IF you keep it around 85' and swirl the carboy every few days to keep the yeast in suspension. You can end up with a vey nice Saison in 3-4 weeks if you follow this.

Click to expand...

The only thing I can come up with is the herbs overpower the sweetness and makes it taste very close.

Thank you for the suggestion on getting the yeast to finish. It sounds like you are knowledgeable with the saison style. I am just learning about all of that so most of it is still foreign to me.

With my current setup, I don't think I can keep a beer at 85' for 3-4 weeks, unfortunately.

Brewtimore said:

The only thing I can come up with is the herbs overpower the sweetness and makes it taste very close.

Thank you for the suggestion on getting the yeast to finish. It sounds like you are knowledgeable with the saison style. I am just learning about all of that so most of it is still foreign to me.

With my current setup, I don't think I can keep a beer at 85' for 3-4 weeks, unfortunately.

Click to expand...

I found through trial and error (much error unfortunately) that at least for me, the Ferm Wrap heater + Johnson Controller works like a charm and produces consistently great Saison. This does require an investment in equipment but if you enjoy the Saison style as much as I do then it is worth it. I tried alternative methods (aquarium heater in a water bath) but found the wrap + controller better for my situation.

Montanaandy said:

Can't comment on Saison Du Buff or how it tastes because we can't get it around these parts. If your friends are saying that your clone approximates SDB at 1.022 then SDB must be a very sweet beer.

Click to expand...

The Dogfish Head bottle that I tried was a bit on the sweet side. I haven't tried the Stone version, but the Victory bottle was drier and closer to my initial expectation. That said, 1.022 sounds way too high.

Potential options are careful love and attention as advised above, or using another yeast to clean up. Some people have had good luck with Wyeast #3711 French Saison (though that will give you a different flavor profile even when used late), champagne or red wine yeasts; I have used SA-05 in the past.

dwarven_stout said:

The Dogfish Head bottle that I tried was a bit on the sweet side. I haven't tried the Stone version, but the Victory bottle was drier and closer to my initial expectation. That said, 1.022 sounds way too high.

Potential options are careful love and attention as advised above, or using another yeast to clean up. Some people have had good luck with Wyeast #3711 French Saison (though that will give you a different flavor profile even when used late), champagne or red wine yeasts; I have used SA-05 in the past.

Click to expand...

I am hoping to not replicate the Victory version *even though the water profile is the only thing different). That was the worst of the 3 by far, IMO.

I might pitch some SA-05 the next time I brew this just to see what happens when fermentation is around 75% done. Since this will be the house beer, I will mess around with it to see if I can make it even better.

It's the wife's beer and she loves it, so I don't mind too much. Also, its not as sweet as you guys are making it out to be.

Question about the herbs. I see that you added it at 0 minutes. Did you leave it in the fermenter during primary?

105Brewery said:

Question about the herbs. I see that you added it at 0 minutes. Did you leave it in the fermenter during primary?

Click to expand...

I put them in a bag and steeped them in the whirlpool stage. I left them in until the transfer into the carboy. They did not go into the fermentor

Try 3711. If fermented in low 70s it will produce a lot of spicy phenols. It may taste well with the herbs. 3711 will get your saison into 1.000 territory in 3 weeks without you worrying about it but it will not taste very dry. It is quite an amazing yeast. If you don't like the 3711 flavor you may want to combine the yeast you are using now and a little of 3711 when you pitch and you will get both the flavor and dry enough saison.

Not sure if you brewed yet, but i would mash low and long and thin. Ferment high. mmm good stuff!

I'm brewing this tonight (using brewtimore's recipe), but subing in 3711 for the yeast, and Sorachi Ace for Citra (can't find those lately!).

Any advise from those who have brewed before me?

Thanks!

jpoder said:

I'm brewing this tonight (using brewtimore's recipe), but subing in 3711 for the yeast, and Sorachi Ace for Citra (can't find those lately!).

Any advise from those who have brewed before me?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

What advice do you need brother? I have brewed this 6 times so far.

Chop the herbs up real well to release the oils. Add the herbs at flameout. Whirlpool them for a couple mins before you chill the wort. That's the only part that's different from a normal brew, imo. I ferment around 77. Trying 74 for this new batch to see if anything changes.

Its a crowd pleaser to be sure. After trying mine, my buddy spent 22 dollars getting a victory 6 pack of it and he was upset because it didn't taste as good. I filled a growler for him to raise his spirits.

You don't have to mash lower with 3711. Last saison (somewhat similar grain bill) I brewed with 3711 was mashed at 152F and finished at 1.003. Keep the temp in low 70F, it will be nice and spicy.

thanks guys! I'll let you know how I make out.

Be careful using Sorachi. I made ("attempted" would be a better word) a Saison using 3711 & Sorachi and it was horrible. I will have to review my notes but I most likely used too much in the bittering. A little Sorachi goes a long way.

MTAndy

Give it some time, it may be fine after a few months. The bittering drops rather quickly.

Also, I found that it is easier to balance hops and esters/phenols in saison if I skip aroma hop additions and do only bittering (60 min) and flavor (10-0 min) hops.

sergetania said:

MTAndy

Give it some time, it may be fine after a few months. The bittering drops rather quickly.

Also, I found that it is easier to balance hops and esters/phenols in saison if I skip aroma hop additions and do only bittering (60 min) and flavor (10-0 min) hops.

Click to expand...

Well, I gave it the better part of 6-8 months to mellow out and it still sucked. Out of fairness to the Sorachi, I probably allowed the fermentation temps to get too high and that may have played a large part. I am drinking a Saison brewed with 3711 and noble hops as I type this and it is heavenly. Again, I believe that you need to exercise caution using Sorachi as a bittering hop.

I'm brewing this today, I'll let ya'all know how it turns out in about a month!

FYI, Stone is publishing a book titled "The Craft of Stone Brewing Co.: Liquid Lore, Epic Recipes, and Unabashed Arrogance," due to be released on October 18th. According to the description and table of contents, the book includes multiple homebrew recipes, including Saison du BUFF. However, I'm not sure whether this will be all-grain or extract based.

I had forgotten about this thread (but got the emails with the new posts). My clone turned out really great! I don't have any more bottles of the original Saison du Buff(s), but going from memory it is pretty close. Very well liked by all. The herbs meld nicely and are very prominent (added well chopped in a hop sack at flameout). Very nice! Thanks for everyone's help. I'll have to look into buying the Stone book...

Wanted to check out the recipe on this one now that the "official" one is out in the book.

Looks like it was pretty close. It was about 5lbs domestic two row, 5lbs Pilz instead of 10 Pilz. Hop types are right on, but there are less Centennial, more amarillo, and the Citra are dry hops, not finishing. Also, the herbs look WAY high. There was less than an ounce needed for my 10g batch!! According to above it would have been almost 6oz of herbs. WAY too much.

Mine turned out pretty great, but definitely a spice bomb. I used a total of ~3oz herbs, and it is freakin' tough to drink more than one glass. But it really is a fantastic beer, I'm just having trouble killing the keg!

I will for sure be making the published recipe for comparison.

Oh, and I made a spice tea instead of adding the herbs to the boil. I basically just made the tea in a french press, then added the tea to the boil during the last 5 minutes. Worked like a charm.

Ah.... I had a little more than I thought I would (wouldn't all fit in 2 carboys) so I removed a bit of the mash and added it to some lower gravity sparge runoff to make a "small" beer.

I put my herb/spice bag into this one along with some clove, cinnamon, coriander and allspice. It also had all the hop dredges from the boil in it. I figure it will be a low gravity/alcohol holiday beer that I can drink a bunch of without getting too drunk. Still the same Saison yeast.

Cant wait for all of these to finish so I can start to drink. Brewed on Sunday and it was bubbling like crazy by Monday afternoon.

Oh... It turned out awesome. Haven't had a side by side but it is almost exactly what I remembered.