Another efficiency thread.

Does this crush look OK? This is from the mill at my LHBS. This is my fifth AG batch, and my efficiency is so bad, I'm pleading the fifth.

Try this, you wn't need a magnifying glass.

Tell us a little bit about your setup & procedures please....

It reminds me of one of those plates that you look at to see if you are colour-blind!! I swear I see the number 23 in your crush!!

I just wish I could find a way to get everyone to read this message:

If you don't like your efficiency, buy a mill!!

That is the BEST and IMHO - FIRST step to take to fix your efficiency problems.

Hard to tell if the crush is ok. It appears to be post-mash. You need to take a more detailed pic, before you mash the grain.

+1 for posting your procedures and setup.

Yuri_Rage said:

+1 for posting your procedures and setup.

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Do you use a VBB forum with the Rep add-on? One of the forums I use has it and there's a lot of +1 or $rep++ (it's a programming forum).

I am going to buy my own mill, it's just a chunk of change.

I do single infusion batch sparge in a 10 gal. Rubbermaid cooler, fitted with a stainless braided hose. I have a traceable thermo, and I generally mash at 154-155F for 1 hr. I have tried mashing out, though I don't usually do it. I have sparged with one volume, and multiple equal volumes. I have sparged with all 168-170F H20, and I have tried Higher temp water for the first sparge. I have checked my thermo, and there is no way it could possibly be more than 1 deg. off.

It doesn't matter whether m recipe calls for 8lbs of grain, or 15#, my OG is always between 1.040-050.

Yes, I have checked my hydrometers, they are both dead on, and yes, I do comp for temp.

I have read a lot about this subject, both on this forum, and alsewhere, and the research is what leads me to believe that the crush might be the problem.

Right now, I would kill for 70% eff.

Sea, I'd almost be willing to bet the cost of the mill that your eff will increase as a result of getting a BC or a Crankandstein. If you're not milling your own grains, you're not getting your money's worth out of your grain.

Honestly, buying a mill was one of the best things I have done for my brewing. Not only can I buy bulk grains and save, but I get very good efficiency constantly, and consistency is important in brewing. My efficiency jumped up from 60% to 80% when I started milling my own grains.

Short of the crush, you seem to have tried most of the things I can think of.
I assume you stir well after each addition of sparge water before vorlaufing and draining?
How much mash water do you use (in qts per lb)? and how much sparge water?
Have you read the gravity of the final runnings? If this is much above 1.020 - 1.025, you have a sparging problem. In fact, if it's above 1.010 you could increase efficiency by sparging more, and then boiling down.
One last thing. You did stir the wort before taking the gravity didn't you.

-a.

Cheeze & Iordz, you are both right, a mill is my next big purchase. Unfortunately with the mortgage, kids, and wife in school, $150 is a lot of money for me right now.

ajf,

I stir well at all the appropriate times.

I usually mash with 1.25 t/lb, sparge with 1.5-2Qt/lb to bring up to boil volume.

I haven't taken gravity readings on the runnings. I know I probably should at some point, but I'm just interested in getting reasonable efficiency. I know from reading this forum that lots of batch spargers get high 70s to low 80s with a 60 minute boil.

I haven't been stirring before gravtiy readings, I thought that was only important in PM beers, or when you add water. Seems that if I remember correctly, any separation would leave the denser, and therefore higher SG liquid, at the bottom, and I usually take the last 1/2 cup of wort from my brewkettle for my reading. Am I wrong about this?

Thanks for your replies!

Sea said:

Cheeze & Iordz, you are both right, a mill is my next big purchase. Unfortunately with the mortgage, kids, and wife in school, $150 is a lot of money for me right now.

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Totally understandable, but then you either need to find a friend with a mill, a LHBS with a better mill or an OHBS with a great crush.

This is a Barley crusher:



This is barley crushed by a Barley Crusher:



75-80%

If your grain looks like Beermuncher's picture then that is all you need. A grain mill is really nice and I have one but you can get good results with properly crushed grain from your LHBS. The mashing procedure is most important when trying to get efficiency. Some brewers are pushing grain mills like they are the end all solution to mash efficiency when the real problem may be the mash procedure. As long as the grain is opened well and water can get into the husk then you can convert/extract sugar with good efficiency. Look on the web for everything you can find on mashing and good results will be yours.

When I look at that pic I see what looks like whole grains in there.

mr x said:

When I look at that pic I see what looks like whole grains in there.

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The picture is an example and 99.98% is crushed then. You are kidding of coarse. Look at your own grain and see if it is a good crush (open so that water can get inside). Good grief ...........

WBC said:

The picture is an example and 99.98% is crushed then. You are kidding of coarse. Look at your own grain and see if it is a good crush (open so that water can get inside). Good grief ...........

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I don't understand that post.

I don't see any whole grains.
I see lots of in tack but cracked husks.

I'm talking about the original pic, not Biermuncher's. I see whole grains in there. Looks much more in-tact than my crush for sure.

http://i13.tinypic.com/4ztlo4g.jpg

mr x said:

I don't understand that post.

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I'm sorry, I guess it was not explained well as I get frustrated when people push buying grain mills as a cure all. When you get your grain from the LHBS you need to look at it to see how well it is crushed. Don't accept poorly crushed grains. If you have the money then a grain mill is good to have. For brewers that brew very little it is a big expense.

WBC said:

I'm sorry, I guess it was not explained well as I get frustrated when people push buying grain mills as a cure all. When you get your grain from the LHBS you need to look at it to see how well it is crushed. Don't accept poorly crushed grains. If you have the money then a grain mill is good to have. For brewers that brew very little it is a big expense.

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I think that the original picture was post-mash…in which case all of the white starchy goodness would have been washed away.

I agree that you shouldn’t need to buy a mill if you’re doing few-and-far-between brews. That is of course, if you have influence over the crush. In my case, I was ordering on-line and getting good crushes about 80% of the time. Not much you can do once the Fed-Ex guy drops off your 50 pound sack.

The other thing is that a supplier has to cater to the least common denominator. In other words…if a few people have setups that are prone to stuck sparges and complain to the supplier that the crush was to fine…they’re going to dial down the crush to avoid those complaints…leaving the rest of us to ponder why our efficiency has dropped.

Thanks for the replies. The original pic was post mash, but I'll tell you right now, the grain wasn't that well crushed to begin with. The owner of my LHBS is nice as long as you don't question his opinion, and he's even gone so far as to comment on the grain I just ran through his mill, "That's a nice crush!"

Guess I'll have to whore myself out nights so I can get that mill!

Sea said:

… The owner of my LHBS…even gone so far as to comment on the grain I just ran through his mill, "That's a nice crush!"…

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Says the man who’s selling you grain…

Origionally Posted by BierMuncher
The other thing is that a supplier has to cater to the least common denominator. In other words…if a few people have setups that are prone to stuck sparges and complain to the supplier that the crush was to fine…they’re going to dial down the crush to avoid those complaints…leaving the rest of us to ponder why our efficiency has dropped.

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I know you brew a lot so am surprized you have not purchased a mill. I suppose that you will if the milling get's bad enough.

Thought I'd chime in here because no one has mentioned pH. What is the pH of your water? I can't give too much advice because with only 5 all-grain batches under my belt, I'm still a noob, but I can offer something...

I've had the opposite problem (not trying to brag here) with getting efficiencies well over my predictions. I've done different mash temps, times, and types (single infusion, direct-heat step mashing, and single decoction). They've all come out higher than my prediction despite my increasing that prediction every batch. I've finally got it figured out to about 92-93%. My LHBS crushes my grain and I believe it's a good crush (it must be with THAT kind of efficiency). Also, I fly sparge. The only other singularity is that my water (from my well) pH is about 4.5-4.6. I know... it's low, but I can't argue with the results it brings. High efficiency and great tasting beer. So, based on your problem, I would think it has to be one or a combination of: crush, water pH, sparge-style.

Thanks for the pic Biermuncher... Now I know what crushed grains look like. Finally...

I'll buy a mill.