20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

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Hi. I'm new to this board, and I attempted to make (and finally did make) the #4 Deep Amber today. I read through all 20 pages of this discussion and it looked like while some people had some of the same issues as I did, I didn't see a fix for those issues that used the resources that were available to me.

When making the #4 Deep Amber, I used L.D. Carlson Company yeast nutrient (contains food grade urea and di-ammonium phosphate) instead of pure DAP, as that's what my local homebrew shop had in stock. After running through the process and then cooling it, I ended up with a crystallized slurry of a color that was in between the 260 F and 270 F color samples per post 36 of this discussion. It didn't really have much flavor, and certainly wasn't what I expected.

I decided that maybe my thermometer was off, and reheating to a higher temperature might allow me to hit my color target. I also decided that inverting the sugar might help with the crystallization. I added 1/4 tsp of acid blend (a blend of citric and malic acids sold at my local homebrew shop; I don't know the ratio) and started the reheat. This time around, the color at 290 F was spot on, so I figured that maybe my thermometer wasn't the issue after all. I added 1 cup of water (a little at a time), which brought the temperature to around 235 F, heated it back up to 240 F, and then cooled it. It stayed a syrup after cooling, and it tastes pretty great.

In the future, I plan to add some acid at the start to invert the sugar before the Maillard reactions start. Is there any reason why this would not be a good idea?
 
After running through the process and then cooling it, I ended up with a crystallized slurry

In the future, I plan to add some acid at the start to invert the sugar before the Maillard reactions start. Is there any reason why this would not be a good idea?

I've found that diluting the syrup with more water at the end of the process, and reheating to just boiling will help keep the crystallization down.

I know a lot of people say you need to add acid to invert the sugar first, but I think that's unnecessary. Most (perhaps all) of the sugar will invert from heat alone. Adding acid will lower the pH, and as the syrup darkens, the pH will drop further. Maillard reactions increase at higher pH.

IIRC, when I added acid to invert the sugar first, then darkened it to the color I wanted, the pH of the final syrup was around 4. Increasing the pH to the 5-6 range made a better tasting syrup, IMO. I'm not sure the optimum pH yet, but that's something I plan on looking into.

So if you add acid to invert, you'll want to add a base to adjust the pH into the proper range pre-boil. I've used potassium bicarbonate, which worked pretty well, but pickling lime is what I plan on using in the future.
 
I attempted the 290 degree version last night. I hit all the temps in the directions but my syrup came out more like light amber. It tastes great but not the color I was going for. Other than maybe my thermometer being off, could bringing it up to the temp too fast not develop the right color?


Edit: I made another batch last night and left the burner between medium and med-low. Turned out right on with a lower temp.
 
ok, i have searched the net and do not know what DAP is. what is it and where can i purchase it? thanks, Chia
 
It seems that the distributor of the commercial Dark Candi Syrup is having some trouble and I can't find it anywhere, so I stumbled across this thread and made my own!

I had a very interesting time with #5 yesterday:

First try: the thermometer only read 240 when the whole 2 lbs. of sugar turned into a giant brown cake with volcano-like holes blowing smoke and turned my pot into a disgusting mess which is still sitting in the sink filled with PBW in the hopes that SWMBO will forgive me one day.

Second try: I held the thermometer on its side so that it was submerged more. This time, reading the temperature correctly, it turned out perfectly. It's amazing how the smell changes over time, starting with ammonia and ending with one the best smells ever: cherry plum christmas rum molasses candy.

Anyway, I'm so incredibly pleased with this. I can't thank the OP enough! So much fun to make!

To the poster who said they were getting solids: check your thermometer. It is not accurate unless it is submerged about 2".

-Mike
 
I recently aimed to make a 10 lb batch in a 10 quart pot, scaling up the the Deep Amber (290F) recipe by 5. I started by mixing the 10 lb of sugar with 5 cups of water, to make sure that all of the sugar was wetted before firing up the stove. After the sugar syrup clarified, approximately at 225F, I added 1/4 cup + 1/2 tsp (2-1/2 tsp x 5) of yeast nutrient. I kept my gas stove on medium; though the syrup never really got hotter than 235F, it did develop a beautiful dark amber over the course of about an hour. Since I was still at the soft ball stage, I did not add the final water addition. I ended up with 12.4 lb of deep amber syrup, which fit into about 3-2/3 of 3.3 lb liquid malt extract containers.

I can report that large batches work, although not quite the same as a small batch. Also, it seemed to take longer to pass through the various colors, so I believe that it's easier to hit a target color.

I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do with all of this syrup, but I'm sure I'll find something to do with it. :)
 
I made a 4 lb batch today, two lessons learned:

1) It stayed at 230 for a while(15 mins or so), so I got tired and cranked my stove up from 5/9 to ~8/9. The temperature, very, slowly started climbing upwards but once it hit somewhere around 245-260 or so it rushed up. I don't really have any accurate numbers since it was so stable at 240ish I left it at the stove to check the internets. Couple of minutes later when i checked on it, it was up at 293ish(what i was aiming for :rockin:).

2) I didn't really care about if the end product crystalised or not, so I didn't add any water once I hit my temperature.
It was a pain in the A** to get it out of the pot and into my container, so i ended up boiling about half a quart to help steam down the residues on the pot walls and such. So even if you don't care about the final consistency I suggest you add some water just to get it out of the pot.

Now to see how much color it'll add once mixed into the wort, I'm aiming for something a wee bit darker than Leffe 9 I think.
 
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread... love the DIY stuff.

I made the sugar #5 last night, hit all the temps, though i was a little short on hardball for the last step-- looked away for a moment and had a boil over-- too much of a mess to get it back on heat (temp got to just under 240). Finished product was really close to the D2 I have in my cupboard from my rye saison. It has an extra flavor; however, almost like roasted marshmallow. This flavor is slight, but im wondering if there are any thoughts on what might have caused this.

Im also wondering if there is a consensus on fermentibility of this product vs. store bought candi sugar.
 
I bumbled my way through making 2.5 lbs of the 290* syrup today. Came out well, although the color is not as dark as the pic.

Of note, I used a mesh skillet screen (we always used to for bacon splatter) and poured the 2nd water addition through it. It saved me from the splatter when the water hit the syrup.

Thanks OP.
 
Just curious if I'm the only one with this problem: I made a Belgian using the 290 syrup from this page. The syrup smelled and tasted great, however, the beer did not ferment down nearly as much as it did when I purchased a similar syrup.

Is there something about the homemade syrup that makes it less fermentable? Unfortunately the beer I made with it isnt' nearly as good as usual.
 
rebrandsoftware said:
Unfortunately the beer I made with it isnt' nearly as good as usual.

I have also found that you can get close making it yourself, but imo, I have never tasted one that is anywhere near the quality and flavor of Dark Candi inc's products.
 
I believe that making syrup like Dark Candi is extremely easy and cheap, it just requires knowledge we do not have at the moment. It probably requires a proper choice of catalyst and good temperature and pH control as the reaction happens fast.
 
Is there something about the homemade syrup that makes it less fermentable? Unfortunately the beer I made with it isnt' nearly as good as usual.

I actually had the opposite problem, my dubbel was supposed to finish around 1.012, but it didn't stop there and I ended up with a super dry 1.005 almost saison-like beer.

In your case, did you replace a percentage of your primary fermentables with the syrup, or did you just add it on to an existing recipe? If you're aiming for a lower FG make sure you're dropping some of your malt, otherwise the sugar just adds alcohol without drying it out further.
 
orangehero said:
I believe that making syrup like Dark Candi is extremely easy and cheap, it just requires knowledge we do not have at the moment. It probably requires a proper choice of catalyst and good temperature and pH control as the reaction happens fast.

My understanding is that it is a byproduct of industrial scale candy making. Beyond that I do not know anything about the process they use.
 
rebrandsoftware said:
The recipe called for dark candi syrup which I normally purchase. I simply replaced the commercial version with the homemade version in the same quantities.

I had the same problem. My belgian stout finished really high (1022).
 
If you overcook the syrup you will get unfermentable sugars. Keep in mind that 290 is more a guideline than a set rule with water chemistry, altitude, your equipment, and a few other factors determining where you need to cook the sugar to. Experiment with your temperatures a bit, you'll be fine.
 
im digging up an old thread here but on the DAP will this work:

Yeast Nutrient : Northern Brewer

I have some already and would like to give it a shot.

"A mixture of diammonium phosphate and food-grade urea that nourishes yeast, ensuring that it remains healthy throughout fermentation. ."

I'm not sure what urea is or if it would cause any problems.

thanks in advance
 
I made a 4# batch of this a while ago to use in a cider. I was going for the #5 recipe, but it ended up looking more like the mahogany than the dark amber. I replaced a cup and a half of the white sugar with a cup and a half of lactose. By the time I got to 280 degrees I was starting to get some burnt odors, so I added the first addition of water then. After I added the water it kept foaming up on me so I had to stir constantly. By the time I got back to 260 degrees the syrup was getting pretty dark and I was tired of stirring so I added the second water addition and called it good.
The syrup had a very complex flavor, fig, dark rum, a little burnt but still sweet. It was good. I think I will use some lactose next time too, but limit the temperature to somewhere in the 260 - 270 degree range, depending on how it looks and smells.
It will be interesting to see how the cider turns out, I also steeped some Special B and boiled it down to a syrup and added it and fermented with a Belgian Ale yeast and let the temperature rise into the high 70's. It is bulk aging, this one might take a while to come around.
 
Made a batch today for a dubbel on the 17th. The photo has samples from the 2 290* temp peaks. I was using a less than trusty thermometer and got a less than ideal color on the first part. But the second one darkened nicely. I am somewhat concerned that I'm not picking up a ton of dark fruit flavors but that is likely a result of the colors. It wasnt too difficult though and I can't wait to try it

image-3674891833.jpg
 
At some point when I make a barleywine I will attempt to make 290, but cut the DAP and use wort made with 100% acid malt, probably concentrated between 1.03 to 04. That should give acidity, nitrogen, and plus trace amounts of more complex sugars, maybe giving a little more complexity. Thoughts?
 
At some point when I make a barleywine I will attempt to make 290, but cut the DAP and use wort made with 100% acid malt, probably concentrated between 1.03 to 04. That should give acidity, nitrogen, and plus trace amounts of more complex sugars, maybe giving a little more complexity. Thoughts?

I have been advocating for a while that you will never reproduce the right flavors using refined white sugar no matter what additions you make. (I know several disagree with me.) You need a sugar source that includes heavy amounts of maltose, like wort. I have experimented with reducing wort and I feel like the flavor is 99% there. I haven't tried fermenting it yet to see if it is equally as fermentable as D or D2 but I intend to in the near future. Personally I do not think you need the acid malt, just regular two row.
 
I should clarify I'm planning to replace the water with acid wort, and still use the sugar since the goal is to dry out a big brew. And I'd probably use brown sugar, there are some decent local brands.
 
@ Lyikos and RAM: I've given up completely on using DAP in my syrups. Certain types of Maillard reactions occur more readily at higher pH values. Using an acidified wort is probably working in the wrong direction. I've found the best flavors to come from the 8-10pH range. I've not had much luck using wort or maltose in my syrups though, so maybe RAM is on to something I haven't been able to crack yet.
 
I actually am looking for more inversion that flavor. But that's good to know for future recipes.
 
I made a batch last night for my cider.
5lb of plain granulated sugar
2lb light brown
3 1/2 cups of water
5tbsp lemon juice (acid to aid inversion)
Took the mix slowly up to 280, color was hard to judge because I started with 2lb of light brown sugar but It resulted in a nice medium amber with some nutty toasted marshmallow tones.
Instead of cooling it by adding water I placed the pot in my sink full of cold water to drop the temp below 200 then added 1/2 gal of cider to dilute it to a more pourable consistency. I did not want to cook and set any of the pectin in the cider and make clearing it later a PITA.

Now for my question. I have seen asked here a few times already is about how fermentable this sugar is after cooking it. Does anyone know how fermentable this stuff really is?
My OG is 1.075
I guess my FG will answer my question in a couple weeks.
 
Since i'm in Sweden and can´t get a hold of DAP i'm planing on using ammonium bicarbonate (hartshorn). Does anyone know if i should use the same amount as i would with DAP?
 
Thought I would post some notes on my dubbel using the sugar. I guess I didn't get it dark enough (as you can see in the photo in a previous post) so the dark fruit favors aren't there in my dubbel. It's very dry, and not very dubbel-like. I will try it again, but get the first round of darkening much darker
 
I got into this thread when I read the title. I was expecting to read some cornmeal, and an alcohol resistant yeast to 22%. Then for it go go on explaining the differences between pot stills and a column or reflux still. Imagine my disappointment.
 
Since i'm in Sweden and can´t get a hold of DAP i'm planing on using ammonium bicarbonate (hartshorn). Does anyone know if i should use the same amount as i would with DAP?

mvasilis,
if you are using ammonium bicarbonate use 1% of the weight of sugar. Here is an article from the brew like a monk website. scroll down towards the bottom and check out the feedback for a very lengthy and weight/temp specific comment.

http://www.brewlikeamonk.com/?p=88
 
I have Wyeast beer nutrient but no DAP on hand. I understand that the Wyeast nutrient has some (or a lot?) of DAP in it but I can't find anything that says how much. Can I substitute it for DAP? Thanks!
 
scottatdrake said:
I have Wyeast beer nutrient but no DAP on hand. I understand the the Wyeast nutrient has some (or a lot?) of DAP in it but I can't find anything that says how much. Can I substitute it for DAP? Thanks!

No, you can't. You'll just get burnt sugar (as I learned once to my detriment). There's a lot of other "stuff" in the wyeast nutrient.
 
Other uses for candy syrup

1. Heat skillet. Add butter
2. Sauté fresh pineapple
3. Add 1/2 oz rum
4. Drizzle candy syrup over top
5. As soon as combined pour directly over ice cream.
6. Enjoy!

I have made this syrup to put over ice cream before but the pineapple and rum just take it to a new level. Sounds, and looks, delicious!
 
I think the lack of dark color is due to too high heat, it takes a while to get to the 250 degree point, so people heat it up too much, then it blasts past 290 before the top layer of the pot can mix (past when water and amonia boils off), and the longer it takes until it reaches terminal temp, the better it mixes, the more of the mass turns dark. Going to try that again soon
 
I just made the 290 degree version of this today for a Belgian Dubbel I'm planning on brewing next weekend and good Lord it's delicious! I may never get the smell of ammonia out of my nose though. :p
 
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