keg ------>keggle?

ok so I went to town today (20 min drive) and I stopped at one of the local Beer distribitors ( *%#up PA laws) and got my self a case of 16 oz guinness cans for $34 ( about 5-6 dollars a 4 pack) which is better then $10.00 yes $10 for 4 cans.

anyways. I talked to the dist. and he said he would sell me a keg for $10 ( deposit) . I assume that the kegs are 5 gallons. ( they look about the size of my carbouy( is it carbouy or carboy) again...anyways... should I be looking for a barrel for doing ..say 10 gallon full boils?

and TROEGS is Awesome!!

Which one stole your purse, Ma'am?

non yet but ( sorry for lack of terms) the one with double blue lines!! And whats the story on the one with black and yellow? he had those to!!! You can tell I went to a college that didn't have lots of keg partys! but we did drink alot! Hence my spelling! lol

Okay double blue is 15.5g Half Barrel. There is a European version that is 50L (13.2G) Either one can be converted to a Boil Kettle, HLT or Mash Tun.

It is rarely used by HBers to serve but some (few) have converted them fermenters.

The black and yellow is a 5G pony. It's like a corny but like the 1/2B it has the SanKey fitting on the top making it difficult to clean and costly to get multiple fittings for so it is rarely used by the HBer.

Cool. Cool ... I don't mean to be dumb but they don;t look like 15+ gallons!

Thanks
olllllo

I will pick one up next fall after work to hopefully take on my all grain quest!

oo yeah an guinness kegs are 133+taxs yiks!!
(FULL)

ooo yeah ....are kegs double walled? sorry about the double post(NO PUN)

I've seen $150 for a keg o guiness....


and kegs are single walled

Just throwing it out there.....




Technically, the distributor doesn't own the keg, and doesn't have the right to sell it to you for the deposit. Someone's getting ripped off. It's a big issue for a lot of smaller breweries.

the_bird said:

Just throwing it out there.....




Technically, the distributor doesn't own the keg, and doesn't have the right to sell it to you for the deposit. Someone's getting ripped off. It's a big issue for a lot of smaller breweries.

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Glad you said it Bird, I get tired of preaching about that................I feel like I sound like a Sunday School teacher

And yes, buying a keg from the distributor for the deposit price amounts to theft.

Rot in jail pirate ;-) When are they going to raise the deposit to at LEAST the scrap value? These are crimes of pure opportunity. I don't necessarily condone buying grey market, but I understand.

Shouldn't the distributors have to pay for kegs they can't get returned? That would cut down on the "opportunity"...

the_bird said:

Just throwing it out there.....




Technically, the distributor doesn't own the keg, and doesn't have the right to sell it to you for the deposit. Someone's getting ripped off. It's a big issue for a lot of smaller breweries.

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I had a huge response to this but instead of being blasted for it i have deleted it down to this.

While it may sting a bit to lose one the steps involved to keep track of all of the kegs would be like losing a dollar to save a dime. I am sure when they lose one they can write it off as a cost of doing business or some thing.

Let the guy have some fun with his new found kegs to convert.

And if you choose to listen to bird then go to a scrap yard and buy one. I know i know, i am sure that one has been scrapped by some unsavory college student who need the cash and the brewery has lost out there as well.

Can we find ANY CONFLICT FREE KEGS around here?

Can't wait for the movie "Blood Keg" Who would star in it? Bobcat Goldwath?
Can not buy diamonds and now kegs either. CRAP

Reverend JC said:

While it may sting a bit to lose one the steps involved to keep track of all of the kegs would be like losing a dollar to save a dime. I am sure when they lose one they can write it off as a cost of doing business or some thing.

Let the guy have some fun with his new found kegs to convert.

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That's ridiculous. Kegs cost close to a hundred bones apiece new. Are you saying it is more cost effective to just let the public run off with them at will? Why do you thing retail stores spend billions each year to stop shoplifters? It's the same thing. The only way to "write it off" is to charge more for their product. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not too swift on the idea of paying more for something because someone else is dishonest.
So you may think the breweries are these big rich corporations and you're really just getting back something by stealing a keg. It's still theft, and it's still wrong.
I'm stopping here because the more I re-read your post,the more pi$$ed off I get, and I don't want to go overboard.

Bernie, what i am simply saying is this:

If it is such a huge loss then why do they not take a credit card swipe and say "you will be charged XXX for this if it is not returned"
Then they get there deposit and the cost of the keg.

Do not get me wrong, i do not condone coming about kegs the illegal way. I am simply saying, if they have that big of a loss everytime this happens then why are they not fixing it. You must be aware that everytime you rent a movie you will be charged for the rental of course and then for the cost of the moive if you lose it or do not return it. Why keg distributors or liquior stores that sell them or even the brewerys not getting smarter about this if it is in fact that big of a loss?

I am not trynig to fight here. I would just think it common sense that they institute a precedure to bring the rate of empty keg return to a higher level.

Thanks for all of the comments on this, and I have read other treads on keg theft!

I didn't mean to start another bad thread on this topic! I was just looking for some additional info! Bernie Brewer, I don't mean this in a bad or trying to be rude, but there is no reason to get pissed-off about this topic! We are talking and sharing information!


On a side note! Maybe not the right place! But I don’t see a need every time a certain issue comes up that it needs to go south! Not just this but many issues on this fourm..I enjoy reading and learning from everyone, but the knowledge that the more advanced or the brewer that have enjoyed this hobby for sometime is priceless! People can have an opinion, but people can’t give and opinion!

Thanks again for the reply’s
F_T

Reverend JC said:

Bernie, what i am simply saying is this:

If it is such a huge loss then why do they not take a credit card swipe and say "you will be charged XXX for this if it is not returned"
Then they get there deposit and the cost of the keg.

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In lots of states, they don't have that option - the deposit is set by law and has nothing to do with the value of the keg. I would wager that pretty much anywhere that the deposit is only $10, the $10 is set legislatively. In an ideal world, they'd be allowed to charge a fair amount for the deposit, and take your information down and reclaim the full value if you don't bring it back.

Go read some of the forums on probrewer.com, if you *really* think this is something that they're happy to just write off as a cost of doing business...

Bird, I agree with you. In Nebraska, or lincoln more specifically, the deposit is 75, plus extra for the tub and extra for the tap. For most people that is worth taking the items back for. I can see if you had a 10 dollar deposit that alot of those would not get returned. I have not looked into this but i really doubt that deposits are legislated. talk about micro managing. If that is true then perhaps they need to come up with another name for it like a "good buddy" fee or something to ensure they get returned.

Again, i feel it nessasry to say "I do not condone taking kegs just because you paid a deposit"

It would just seem to me that if enough people are posting on probrewer.com about it why do they not take action and change the deposit fees everywhere to 200 bucks? what is the big deal, my deposit checks or CC # are never processed because i return the kegs.

Maybe not "legislatively," but I have no doubt that in some states, keg deposits are set by state regulators.

If they cared, they'd increase the cost of the beer.

How many fills can a Bud Light keg take before they need to replace them?

the_bird said:

Maybe not "legislatively," but I have no doubt that in some states, keg deposits are set by state regulators.

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This is done in conjunction with registering that you bought a keg (driver's lic. CC, etc) so they can "monitor" underage drinking. My understanding is that in those cases the deposit is higher ($100+)

Rev. Deposit fees are kept low because of market forces. No small brewery has the power to pass the cost on to the consumer. True, it isn't an actual cost in the long run... you get your money back, but it is a cost in terms of turning customers away.

If an upstart micro charges a $200 deposit to cover the loss and "rental period" (They can't fill what's out with customers), and Blue Moon can be had for a $10 deposit becase AB can underwrite it, which way is a "typical" beer consumer going to go. This is all assuming that the "cost" is passed down and is visible to the consumer. It may really only go as far as the distributor or the store. I think in many cases the distributor or store eats the difference, so the $10 that is passed down as a deposit to you, only represents a fraction of the cost.

Clear as mud?

Fire_Travels: There is no bad blood here. This just needs to be discussed from time-to-time. Many of us have acquired kegs via many different ways. We just want people to be informed just the same as when someone asks, "Why buy a $37 perlick faucet over a $15 standard one?"

Olllo, i understand, but a deposit is never taken from you, atleast in NE anyway. I give them a check or CC number and the second i give them their keg and other stuff back they give me the sheet with their signature on it saying returned in full. Perhaps we are getting turned around here becuase where you are they actually take the deposit out of your bank account or CC account. So i do not think it is a market force that guides it.

There certainly is a market force. It's a market force of a percieved cost.

A high 'deposit', whether it is withdrawn or not, is still somethign that creates a perception of cost in consumers. Consumers frequently are illogical in their assessments of what something costs and anything that is added, even a 'returnable' deposit, will drive customers off.

Consider for a moment how the rumor mill would handle it if one store started charging an actual replacement value deposit on a keg. How would people talk about that store? How many customers would opt to get their kegs elsewhere?

that is what i am saying, they can not randomly up the price, it has to come from the top and make it a level playing field. If you are suggesting the people will simply stop buying beer because of a perceived cost i am going to have to pull the bs card. and if they do stop buying kegs then they buy more cans and thus pay more money.

Everyone forgive me.

I'm going to try to explain this again, not because I think anyone is wrong, but just because I re-read what I wrote and I did a crap job of it.

Maybe this'll help.

Imagine you gave all of your beers away to friends. Now imagine that instead of bottles, each beer had to be jacekted in $150 stainless steel containers. Lets take the upfront cost out of the equation (your rich uncle provided them in his will).

So you get all of them back, but some quicker than others so you think that you might charge you friends a deposit so that if you don't get them all back you can cover your loss. Again, you don't actually take the money, but at least you've ascribed a value to them.

So your cheap semi-unrelianble friend is not going to risk paying that if he loses your SSbottle, so you lose that customer.

If you want to keep that customer, you negotiate the deposit down to below actual replacement value.

So now if he deicdes to keep the SSbottle you are out some amount of money (loss).

Here are some other things that will contribute to making this loss bigger.
Competition- Other brewery has more resources.
Slow returns/keg turnover - now you have to buy more kegs
Having a distributor and a 3rd Party retailer - If you make them eat the cost, they may drop you.

Is that clearer?

Full disclosure: I bought one of mine one ebay. (Grey market, perhaps, but the seller is engaging in the sale in public and AB or Miller or the distributer in Columbus, OH can choose to investigate if they see this as a souce of keg loss)

I bought the other from a liquor store owner. It was a Czech import that was in their storage for several years. They no longer did business with the distributor.

Reverend JC said:

If you are suggesting the people will simply stop buying beer because of a perceived cost i am going to have to pull the bs card.

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What I was doing is 'throwing a BS card' on the statement you made (although I don't like the confrontational nature of that phrase--- I'm merely presenting my opinion and leaving it for the reader to determine the bull**** quotient of the conversation).

Reverend JC said:

So i do not think it is a market force that guides it.

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The price of deposits in a given area is what it is because of a combination of 2 main things:

a) any legislative madate to drive the price.
b) market forces

In the absence of a legislative deposit price (which is most places and not all communities that require registration require a specific deposit) then the deposit price in that area is wholly driven by market forces.

Example: Odds are the $25 deposit I pay here in Madison, which hasn't changed 20 years, was once upon a time a legitimate replacement cost for a keg.

However, that is no longer the case and the only reason that a company absorbs a cost is because they can't find a way to pass it on directly without hurting their sales. If beer companies could require deposit for replacement cost on their kegs they undoubtably would (the interest earned could be another revenue stream). Since the market wouldn't bear that because people would perceive a raise in price, even if there was no actual cost in the end, they don't.

Bottom line: market forces in most US areas have maintained a very low deposit price for quarter and half barrels, such that most deposits do not even begin to approach replacement cost of the item.


(On another note: everytime I've paid a deposit at the dozen or so places I've bought kegs, they've cashed the check and refunded the deposit on return in cash. Although I have a good enough relationship with my purveyor now that he no longer charges me a deposit at all.)

I remember reading someone on probrewer about the market driven low deposit. Their distributors made a case that smaller bars that are just getting started have a real hard time with that initial deposit load. Say they want to start with 8 beers on tap with a 2x inventory backup. That's 24 kegs. If you took an arbitrary replacement cost of $100, that's $2400 added to startup costs. It doesn't really seem like that big of a deal to me, but that's one story. Of course, no one liquor store/distributor wants to be the first guy in the neighborhood to raise the deposit because the guy who doesn't gets the business.

Widmer Bros. charge $80 for a deposit if you get a keg through them, but through a distributor its less, here in in OR.

But back to keggles....
would a keg kettle work on a stove (one or more burners)? I've been using a friends brew pot and its time to get my own but I don't want to be spending $4 a batch on propane.

Thanks,

tandpbrewing said:

But back to keggles....
would a keg kettle work on a stove (one or more burners)? I've been using a friends brew pot and its time to get my own but I don't want to be spending $4 a batch on propane.
Thanks,

Click to expand...

I doubt it. Just for the sake of argument Gas or Electric Coil or Electric smoothtop?

Revrand, thanks for explaining a bit better. I obviously misunderstood your first post. I took it to have the attitude of: "Oh hell they can afford it they rip us off every day anyway." I'm glad I was mistaken. FWIW, I too think that it would do a lot for the beer industry to simply raise the deposit price, if they are able to do so. This would porbably also cut down (some) on underage keggers, since kids don't have a lot of scratch to spend on deposits.
I will say that there are a lot of legitimate sources for kegs: Scrapyards,( ok they might be hot there,too, but at least it's not a definite that they are), Homebrew clubs sell them as fundraisers(that's how I got mine), you can get them online, too. Granted, they cost more that way, but you've taken the high road.

olllllo said:

I doubt it. Just for the sake of argument Gas or Electric Coil or Electric smoothtop?

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couldn't tell you, i'll be moving in a month or so and don't know what the range will be like there. Thanks for the response.

Keg or not, once you get above 4 gallons, most stoves can't keep a boil going.

the_bird said:

Maybe not "legislatively," but I have no doubt that in some states, keg deposits are set by state regulators.

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Ridiculous. Deposits are determined by the liquor store.

brmdavis said:

Ridiculous. Deposits are determined by the liquor store.

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No really. In some states they are.

I googled it earlier and found that yes, some deposits are a legislated amount.

Once you see a keggle, you know darn well a normal stovetop will barely support the weight, empty. Outdoor burner is it.

Bobby_M said:

Once you see a keggle, you know darn well a normal stovetop will barely support the weight, empty. Outdoor burner is it.

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Yea. I was hoping he wouldn't say Viking Full Commercial yadda yadda. That might be the only one.

I asked a guy at the gas station today if they he had any old kegs that were empty/unusable, he said he would sell me one for 25 bucks. He didnt speak english very well but assured me it was okay. Im not sure if he knows whats going on, i should assume that its not legit, right? I want to build a keggle but do not what to steal it, even though hes selling it to me its still wrong (illegal) to posess stolen items.

Alot of this is grey area stuff. Just trying to get the information out and people can decide what to do.

I think the thing that irks me and some others is the attitude that you can pay a deposit and that constitutes the sale of the keg. That's wrong IMO.

If someone told me they did that, I'd let 'em know how I feel and move on. I wouldn't harass anyone about it.

olllllo said:

No really. In some states they are.

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brmdavis said:

Ridiculous. Deposits are determined by the liquor store.

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Actually the state does, if not then it is the distributor or brewer not the liquor store.