Over Pitching and experiences

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BreezyBrew

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Hello Brewers -

I have a phenomenon going on with my beer, and I am trying to tie it back to somewhere in my process. I have been doing some reading on "Over pitching" since I do tend to pitch probably twice the amount that Mr. Malty specifies. This would be liquid (with starters) or Us-05 for dry. With liquid, my starter was usually 2x the size of what is recommended and for dry, it's usually 2 11g packets re-hydrated.

Just one example: I recently brewed Janet's brown ale, and noticed that even though it finished high, it's really not that sweet. 1.069 (refractometer w/o yeast) -1.022 (hydrometer). I used 2 packets of the US-05 re-hydrated and fermented at 65/66. I mashed at 157 and finished at 154 after 60 min. The beer tastes a bit thin for that amount of specialty malt. It also has a bit of harsh aftertaste, both which are a running theme in my beers. I feel like I have to use about half the amount of bittering hops a recipe specifies or it has astringent like qualities. I followed the recipe as written except for the mash temp. Here are my water numbers:

Calcium (ppm) Magnesium (ppm) Sodium (ppm) Sulfate (ppm) Chloride (ppm) Bicarbonate (ppm)
Existing Water Profile 50 3 17 87 20 72
Finished Water Profile 64 3 17 87 46 34
Recommended Ranges 50 to 150 5 to 30 0 to 150 0 to 350 0 to 100 as needed

Mash Parameters
Batch Volume (gal) 6.00 Hardness (ppm as CaCO3) 173 RA (ppm as CaCO3) -19
Estimated Mash pH 5.3 Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3) 28 SO4/Cl Ratio 1.91

I measured the mash PH, and it ended up being 5.3 with a calibrated meter.

So my question to the community is: Is over pitching causing my beers to be overly bitter and thin? I have done some research and it seems like the answer depends on who you ask.

Here's an experiment that supports my findings:
http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

Here's one that refutes it:
Gordon Strong in Brewing Better Beer page 131 and he states: "For a normal strength beer (1.050) I typically add two dry packets, and add another packet for every 25 gravity points." This seems to be in line with the amount that I pitch. Granted, he does not gravitate to hoppy beers. I wouldn't think this would be a practice he would partake if the resulting beer could be better.

Any experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
the issue it that they used to sell 5G packets now the sell 11.5G packets so I would follow mr malty
 
I'm curious why you are purposely over pitching? You're using the calculator, so why not follow what it says?

To be honest, I read into the literature as a good hard fermentation is desired, and this comes from a heap of healthy yeast. I thought that by pitching a lot of yeast, they will be less stressed because they don't have to reproduce as much. I never really saw the negative effects of pitching that is spoken about in How To Brew so I went with it. In refining my process after brewing for a year and a half, this is the conclusion I am coming to.

My next beer I plan on using the calculation from Mr malty as well as the suggested mash temp. I'll see if my findings lead me anywhere.
 
I doubt it is associated with over pitching. The thinness could be associated with over attenuation due to lower mash temps. Are you sure your thermometer is calibrated? Your stated mash temp would lend to a fuller, not thinner beer. The bitterness would most likely be associated with your water profile but I am still learning how all that works so perhaps a more experienced water modifier can chime in. My first guess is Sulfate levels but those appear to be low, not high. I am not sure how the other elements factor in.

Over pitching can cause attenuation problems that would result in higher finished gravities, not lower, in most cases. Depending on the yeast it may also cause off flavor issues but IMO not what you are experiencing.
 
I doubt it is associated with over pitching. The thinness could be associated with over attenuation due to lower mash temps. Are you sure your thermometer is calibrated? Your stated mash temp would lend to a fuller, not thinner beer. The bitterness would most likely be associated with your water profile but I am still learning how all that works so perhaps a more experienced water modifier can chime in. My first guess is Sulfate levels but those appear to be low, not high. I am not sure how the other elements factor in.

Over pitching can cause attenuation problems that would result in higher finished gravities, not lower, in most cases. Depending on the yeast it may also cause off flavor issues but IMO not what you are experiencing.

I am typically using a Thermapen and a second thermometer to double check.

Yes, from over pitching, one would think the FG would be higher. When the beer is over pitched, the cells are less healthy at the end of fermentation (Yeast, White pg. 67) and presumably attenuate less. The results of the first aforementioned study almost seem to be the exact opposite.

I also have had trouble dissolving gypsum into my brewing liquor, so the resulting water profile may not be 100% accurate. I have since learned that cooler temps, not warmer lend to a more homogeneous solution.
 
BreezyBrew said:
I am typically using a Thermapen and a second thermometer to double check. Yes, from over pitching, one would think the FG would be higher. When the beer is over pitched, the cells are less healthy at the end of fermentation (Yeast, White pg. 67) and presumably attenuate less. The results of the first aforementioned study almost seem to be the exact opposite. I also have had trouble dissolving gypsum into my brewing liquor, so the resulting water profile may not be 100% accurate. I have since learned that cooler temps, not warmer lend to a more homogeneous solution.
You might try adding your gypsum directly to the mash after dough in.

In looking at your numbers again there is really not much of a difference from the source. Have you tried using your source water without additions to see if the bitterness issue goes away? The sulfates are not really high enough to create that pronounced hop presence IME
 
This was actually my first brew at my new house, so I haven't done much experimenting with the water yet. It's pretty much the reverse of the water I came from, which was fairly hard and much similar to the traditional London water profile. I'm liking the ease of getting the PH down! Thanks for the suggestion.
 
I routinely use 2 packages of US-05 re-hydrated for a brew and will often use 2 vials of WLP001 in a 2 quart starter then step the starter multiple times with excellent results. I doubt very much if over pitching is the cause of thin beer or astringent taste. Those are normally from mashing at to high of a temperature.
 
How are you sparging? I don't think over pitching would result in a thin/astringent flavors, though I'm curious to if you did a fast-fermentation test to see what the real degree of fermentation was for your starting wort too.

I think on a home brew scale, especially when you are pitching a fresh pitch, over pitching will not be much of a problem. It starts to become a problem when you are re-pitching yeast multiple times. These yeast are fairly beat up, and if you don't give them a sufficient growth phase, you run the chance of the yeast quitting early because they are mostly old and tired yeast.
 
I was under the impression that it is pretty hard to actually over pitch on the homebrew level. I would maybe suspect that it's over sparging. Is the harsh flavor you are getting a bitterness or an astringency? How are you measuring your pH? Is it with strips or with a meter. If a meter then is the probe old?
 
I would like to add that I usually shoot for over pitching by 20 or 30% because I find I get a faster and more consistent fermentation. The calculators are also calculating the amount of cells you are pitching, not necessarily the amount of viable cells.
 
First thing i'd do is use RO water. LHBS usually sells this for cheap. I've had astringency before by brewing with my tap water and have found that it's likely chloramine.

There is no point in overpitching. Costs double for nothing. Trust the brains at Mr. Malty.
 
I routinely use 2 packages of US-05 re-hydrated for a brew and will often use 2 vials of WLP001 in a 2 quart starter then step the starter multiple times with excellent results. I doubt very much if over pitching is the cause of thin beer or astringent taste. Those are normally from mashing at to high of a temperature.

This is for approx. 5 gallons correct?

I think "astringent" probably isn't the right definition of the word. The hop character has a long bitter aftertaste, like a Stone brew, even though it wasn't hopped like one. The

I was under the impression that it is pretty hard to actually over pitch on the homebrew level. I would maybe suspect that it's over sparging. Is the harsh flavor you are getting a bitterness or an astringency? How are you measuring your pH? Is it with strips or with a meter. If a meter then is the probe old?

I suspected this as a culprit too. My last few brews I have actually upped my mash ratio. I have used 1.8 qt/lb. more recently... for my system that's about 3-4 gallons sparge water. I typically am around 8 gallons pre-boil.

As for the PH meter, the last brew I did was the first time I used one, so I only have a calculated/expected PH level. All have been at 5.4 or below with Bru'n water.

"I've got 99 problems, but a pitch ain't one."

Awesome! haha

I've had astringency before by brewing with my tap water and have found that it's likely chloramine..

I use Campden to remove the chloramine.... I have always used Bru'n water to create my water profile. Something to explore.
 
I agree with the others that I don't think overpitching can cause the effect you describe.

Still, overpitching has no real benefit. There is a reason that good brewing practice specifies a certain pitch. Diverging from standard is of little to no practical use and has infinitely more potential to negatively impact the beer than improve it. It's being different for the sake of being different, which is unwise. I would hope that a conscientious brewer would want to maximize the likelihood of brewing excellent beer consistently. Fiddling with standard practice is not the way to achieve that.

There is no reason to not trust the MrMalty calculator. In fact, the comment about cells vs. viable cells above is not factual. The calculations are based on assumptions of viable cell amounts in slurry, with modification for viscosity and age.

Astringent bitterness is most likely a water-chemistry issue.

Cheers,

Bob
 
Why not split your next batch and pitch the proper amount in one and double in the other. If they both come out with the same thin character then you can be sure to rule out overpitching as the issue.
 
In the past I've PM Tasty at the Brewing Network forum and got an answer freaky fast.

Post this question over there. I am sure he'll give you some fantastic feedback.
 
Why not split your next batch and pitch the proper amount in one and double in the other. If they both come out with the same thin character then you can be sure to rule out overpitching as the issue.

That would definitely rule that out, but I could probably just go with the pitching rates in the literature too since all if these beers seem to have the same character.

I threw Tasty a bone on one of the Janet threads, so hopefully he will respond.

I seem to be getting this character from my beer that was brewed in both locations so I am wondering if it is my water composition and process. I did recently read that sparge water should be below pH 6. I haven't tested that yet. Also in Gordon Strong's book he says to never get sparge above 170. I do heat the water to, 180, but when I combine it, it is never above 170.
 
At 2x the Mr. Malty recommendation, you are not over pitching - however, the astringent or other "off" taste could be attributed to your fermentation temperature. How are are you controlling your fermentation temperatures - perhaps this is the wild card in your process.
 
I use a fermentation chest freezer with temp control. The probe is taped to the side of the carboy and bubble wrap is covering the outside. I set it at 65 degrees.

This most recent fermentation didn't have much krausen or ferment very hard. A new one for me. I did clean the glass measuring cup with a strong dose of starsan mix before I put the water and yeast in for rehydration. I did think about this being an issue if the two cups of water and two yeast packet mixture had a really low pH. But if too many yeast cells died, incomplete fermentation, right? The samples did not taste sweet...
 
As to sweetness vs. FG, sweetness is going to be a function of the recipe and boil time, not so much the mash, unless you decoct.

In my experience what results from over pitching is a lack of esters, and sometimes sulfur. It could be that the "harsh" you're getting is a lack of fruity esters? Maybe this is why you're perceiving less sweetness also?

I don't see how it's possible to stall a beer or get high FG from moderate over pitching. If you had a runaway fermenation and it got up to 80F in a hurry, you might see under-attenuation in a bigger beer as the yeast die off, but typically warm ferments over-attenuate. Healthy yeast are pretty happy anaerobically, and yeast health doesn't really suffer until alcohol content reaches about 7-8%. That being said, 1.022 is pretty high for a 1.069 beer, though I've never seen the recipe.
 
Are you in my fermenter? Haha. I get lots of Sulfur each batch. Just checked the Janet's and after three weeks, still so much Sulfur.
 
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=&t=18509#_thread

Here is the recipe. My beers always seem to finish that high when I use carapils.

Are you mashing at 154*F? That ought to give you a decently malty (but not overly-sweet) character vs. too dry.

I don't believe that over-pitching to the extent that you report is the root of your problem, although it's not needed and is something of a waste of an extra packet. Now, if you were tossing a light-medium gravity ale wort atop a fresh yeast cake without removing any of it, then you may be looking at enough of an over-pitch (around 4-5x) to cause some issues.
 
Thanks, I appreciate it. I've scaled the yeast back to the Mr Malty theoretical values and have seen good results in the first beer I brewed with this process. I wanted to update the thread. The most recent beer is very clean smelling through the heavy fermentation activity. It's about 48 hrs now and nothing has come up. Granted the sulphur can be expected with other strains, but I'm not getting any with the strain that's not a typical offender.

I am pumped at the way this is turning out. Thanks all!
 
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