Brett stout/porter/whatever

I had been wanting to do a 100% Brett beer for quite some time now and rather than go the way of IPA or blonde with Trois or one of the fruity strains, I thought I would mess around with Lambicus and Brux. I Really liked this year's vintage of Deschutes Dissident, so I contacted the brewery and to my absolute surprise, got a great response about what Brett/bacteria they use:

As far as Brett goes we use an equal amount Brux and Lambicus in our aging process of two years. A portion is in oak Pinot casks and a portion is in stainless. With the stainless we use staves in the tanks that are not getting cherries. We don’t want anything from the orchard to infect our staves because we get three uses out of them. The portion that is not getting cherries will have staves for the Brett to live on and added oak character. We grow a strain of Lacto Bacillus here at the brewery which we use in the mash and in the kettle. This becomes inactive in the kettle obviously, so other than the pH and the bio flavor it is not really used for conditioning.

The Brett should still be active and possibly pitchable. So you will have a blend of Brux and Lambicus. I would recommend that you try to propagate the yeast back up. Add the yeast to 15 Plato wort, store near 75-80 degrees F and see if grows, if you have activity in 2 or 3 days, you can let it finish out and then pitch with that. If you don’t have a microscope to check viability just keep a good eye on it and if it really takes off you should be fine.

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I made up a very small starter with the dregs in a pint jar and let it ride for a week or so until I could see a significant amount of growth of the yeast that has begun to collect on the bottom of the jar. I built this up to somewhere between 500-750ml over another week and chilled until I was ready to brew.

The recipe I ended up going with is as follows. My store was out of roasted barley, so I went with some black patent and increased the amount of chocolate malt I was originally going to use. I'm not sure if this is a stout, porter, or something else, but I wanted a dark Brett beer and this will do the job. I brewed yesterday and this morning have airlock activity and krausen.

Brett Stout
American Stout
Type: Extract Date: 8/25/2013
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal Brewer:
Boil Size: 6.20 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Bayou Classic Pot
End of Boil Volume 5.20 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal Est Mash Efficiency 0.0 %
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage
Taste Notes:


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 1 6.0 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (338.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.0 %
6.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.5 %
7 lbs Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 4 83.6 %
1.50 oz Saaz [3.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 20.8 IBUs
Starter from Deschutes Dissident (Brett L/Brett B)

What was your gravity?

As for whether it is a stout or a porter, many will tell you that without roast barley that it isn't a stout. I'm not sure I agree, but of course, roast barley is mentioned in the style guidelines for stouts. This is similar to my recipe that I call a porter (pale malt/chocolate malt/Black Patent Malt/Flaked Wheat).

Keep us informed about how it turns out.

cluckk said:

What was your gravity?

As for whether it is a stout or a porter, many will tell you that without roast barley that it isn't a stout. I'm not sure I agree, but of course, roast barley is mentioned in the style guidelines for stouts. This is similar to my recipe that I call a porter (pale malt/chocolate malt/Black Patent Malt/Flaked Wheat).

Keep us informed about how it turns out.

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It was 1.053.

I'm with you on the stout porter designation, which was why I made the snarky title. I was concerned that the black patent would lend too much harshness and ashy-ness to the beer, but the wort was surprisingly mellow.

I'm going to be out of town for the next three weekends in a row, so I wanted to get this brewed so it had time to finish out while I'm gone. I'll report back sometime in the near future.

cluckk said:

What was your gravity?

As for whether it is a stout or a porter, many will tell you that without roast barley that it isn't a stout. I'm not sure I agree, but of course, roast barley is mentioned in the style guidelines for stouts. This is similar to my recipe that I call a porter (pale malt/chocolate malt/Black Patent Malt/Flaked Wheat).

Keep us informed about how it turns out.

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Historically there is no real distinction. The roasted barley was a thing decided by some American homebrewer back when trying to categorize beers. If you read Shut up about Barclay Perkins you can find historical evidence of stouts/porter being brewed in a partigyle style from the very same grist. Is your BJCP categorical mind blown? In most cases they didn't use roasted barley they use pale, brown, and amber malts. Then as malting tech caught up they used black patent. Roasted barley is certainly a signature of beers like Guiness which is clearly labeled a stout. I think for that reason the inside the box thinkers of the BJCP have suggested it's not a stout with out roasted barley.

I have an imperial stout in which I did not use any roasted barley (or crystal for that matter) whatsoever. It's roasty and intensely coffee flavored from gratuitous use of black malt. I would challenge any "it's not a stout without roast barley" subscribers to taste my beer and not describe it as a stout even though it contradicts the definition of stout by the twats at BJCP. I've always been irked by the very grey line of porter vs stout. Maybe categorically it's more distinct and accurate now because of people trying to fall in line with a made up ruling on the differentiation. In most cases historically stout is a variation of porter.

Here's one post made with brewing logs to back up the claims.

The Difference between porter and stout

Even though Guinness is labeled a stout. it historically is Arthur Guinness' version of a porter. There was also a time that roast barley was not allowed because of the tax on malt so stout/porter brewers had to use black malt.

Right, I think we are trying to make the same point. There really is no difference in my eyes except if I were to enter a beer comp. I think in the US a softer roast flavor is more closely associated with the porter designation with stout being roastier. I don't subscribe to that but it seems to be the BA and BJCP viewpoint.

I personally just call pretty much everything a stout if its a black roasty ale. Well, that is unless there is an obvious alternate designation. One could just as easily call most every black roasty ale a porter if you ask me. I don't have any input on the rules so no one does ask me.

Provided this beer ends up tasting good after it ferments out, I was considering throwing an English barleywine on the cake and, once fermented out, transfer to secondary with a a Balcones whiskey barrel stave or two.

Care to offer any feedback on the recipe?

English Barleywine
Type: Extract Date: 9/22/2013
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal Brewer:
Boil Size: 6.20 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Bayou Classic Pot
End of Boil Volume 5.20 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal Est Mash Efficiency 0.0 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 1 2.9 %
6.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 2 2.9 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 3 1.9 %
6 lbs Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 4 46.2 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 15.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 6 14.5 IBUs
6 lbs Pale Liquid Extract [Boil for 10 min](8.0 SRM) Extract 7 46.2 %
1.0 Brett L / Brett B Cake

Instead of pitching right onto the cake, what about taking a sample of the cake, building it up in a lighter wort on a stir plate to get the yeast back into good condition? It would work pitching directly onto it, but I usually use a yeast cake for pitching onto something that is pretty much the same or lighter gravity. If you pitch a barley wine after a stout, you will be taking the battle weary yeast and throwing them into a major battle. Personally, I'd give them some R&R on astir plate, to get them built up for the fight.

cluckk said:

Instead of pitching right onto the cake, what about taking a sample of the cake, building it up in a lighter wort on a stir plate to get the yeast back into good condition? It would work pitching directly onto it, but I usually use a yeast cake for pitching onto something that is pretty much the same or lighter gravity. If you pitch a barley wine after a stout, you will be taking the battle weary yeast and throwing them into a major battle. Personally, I'd give them some R&R on astir plate, to get them built up for the fight.

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Good idea. I suppose if the stout turns out well, I can harvest a couple jars worth of the cake to reuse for several different batches. Thanks!

You can keep that cake going for years if you have the patience and the equipment.

cluckk said:

You can keep that cake going for years if you have the patience and the equipment.

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For sure. I've been using yeast from the same pack of WY3068 for going on two years now. Definitely got my money out of that smack pack.

I checked on this last night (+8 days) and the krausen has fallen and gravity was just about at 1.01. I almost think there must have been some sacch. in those dregs, though, because the taste is very mild. No funk from either the B or L and no cherry notes from the L. I'm going to leave it a lone for a couple more weeks and see if the gravity falls any more before bottling.

Checked gravity last night and it's down to 1.006. Still very mild. The base is solid, but not getting much from the Brett. Just tastes like a English strain of yeast at the moment. Will probably bottle this weekend.

From what others have said about all-brett beers, a lot of the time you don't get that much of the typical brett character with them as the primary yeast. Instead, you get more of that yeast's more typical esters.

Did you get any pineapple or ripe overly fruit of any sort?

marvaden said:

From what others have said about all-brett beers, a lot of the time you don't get that much of the typical brett character with them as the primary yeast. Instead, you get more of that yeast's more typical esters.

Did you get any pineapple or ripe overly fruit of any sort?

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I didn't really get much of anything other than a slight fruitiness that I notice in a lot of English beers. Maybe the sacch strain in The Dissident is a super high attenuating English ale strain? I dunno, it seems crazy that a sacch strain inadvertently cultured from an almost year old bottle could attenuate that well.

I doubt you got a sacch strain as well. That seems highly unlikely. However, Brettanomyces Claussenii is known for making a very British style ale. Are you noticing that it is giving more aroma than flavor? If so, then Brett C is a very good candidate for the strain that you are using.

marvaden said:

I doubt you got a sacch strain as well. That seems highly unlikely. However, Brettanomyces Claussenii is known for making a very British style ale. Are you noticing that it is giving more aroma than flavor? If so, then Brett C is a very good candidate for the strain that you are using.

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I'm not sure. I am notoriously terrible at judging the characteristics of beers before they're carbonated. All I know is that it's not "in your face" at all.

When I contacted Deschutes, they told me they use Brett Brux and Lambicus in The Dissident, so I would assume some of either/both of those ended up in the starter I made.

I think that you are probably getting a first hand example of the difference between a 100% brett fermentation and using brett as a secondary fermentation. Brett can provide quite a different character when used as the primary yeast strain, typically it is more fruity than funky. You mentioned that Deschutes used another strain as the primary strain, but then added brett b and brett l as well. They likely added those to the secondary fermentation, which is where that characteristic brett funk usually manifests itself.

Either way, brett typically takes a while to exhibit that interesting funky character that you experienced in the beer you are cloning. I believe you mentioned that they aged Dissident for two years. That is not inexpensive and Deschutes wouldn't do that unless the age made a difference in the final beer.

If you like the beer now then drink it up, but if it isn't quite what you were hoping for set it aside for 6 months to a year and see what you think then. We would definitely love to hear how the beer progresses with age, so keep us posted. Thanks again for sharing your experience. I ordered some brett b and brett l the other day and this might be a good experiment for me to try with those strains.

Phil

philiphirz said:

I think that you are probably getting a first hand example of the difference between a 100% brett fermentation and using brett as a secondary fermentation. Brett can provide quite a different character when used as the primary yeast strain, typically it is more fruity than funky. You mentioned that Deschutes used another strain as the primary strain, but then added brett b and brett l as well. They likely added those to the secondary fermentation, which is where that characteristic brett funk usually manifests itself.

Either way, brett typically takes a while to exhibit that interesting funky character that you experienced in the beer you are cloning. I believe you mentioned that they aged Dissident for two years. That is not inexpensive and Deschutes wouldn't do that unless the age made a difference in the final beer.

If you like the beer now then drink it up, but if it isn't quite what you were hoping for set it aside for 6 months to a year and see what you think then. We would definitely love to hear how the beer progresses with age, so keep us posted. Thanks again for sharing your experience. I ordered some brett b and brett l the other day and this might be a good experiment for me to try with those strains.

Phil

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I'll definitely keep you all updated. As for the age of the bottle, I had hung onto it for a while, so that accounts for its age. I'm not sure of the bottle date, but I can check it the next time I run down to the basement.

Quick update: bottled this on 10/3. It got all the way down to 1.004. Looking forward to trying it once it's carbed!

Another update: entered this into a competition that was judged today in category 23: Specialty. It pulled down a 37 and 3rd place in the category! I'll look forward to reading the comments!