Troubleshooting help

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SpaceCoastBrew

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I just finished my control panel build and I'm ready to crank the thing on but when I turn the key, I trip my GFCI in my breaker panel. The panel is modeled off of Kal's with the exception that I'm feeding 60A/240V into the panel and my main relay. I have 30A fuses protecting the two heater relays downstream. When I say feeding the panel, I mean I have a 4/4 AWG cable hard wired to the main relay with a plug on the other end.

In my trouble shooting, I've removed circuits from the main relay one at a time with the same result of tripping the GFCI. I then replaced the 240v feed with a 120v feed just to ensure the relay wasn't damaged. I plugged this 120v feed into a GFCI and it did not trip. Everything in the panel worked as I expected. So I now believe that the problem is in my 240 feed cable or how it's connected. I've searched the cable for any damage to the insulation but have found nothing.

I'm using a tap connector to connect my 4 AWG neutral to the neutral bus but I don't see this being an issue. I'm not overly familiar with 240v wiring but I'm at a loss for what the issue may be. Is it possible that I have a leakage on the 120V but not enough to trip the GFI outlet and that its amplified when I try the 240V cable? Any suggestions that might help me narrow this down?

Thanks for the help!
 
Do you have an ohm meter? If so, measure the resistance between the neutral and the grounding conductors (at the plug) with the system unplugged and the power key turned on. Your reading should show that there is no connection. If you do show resistance, find out where the 2 lines cross within your setup. If not, the problem gets a little harder to find.
 
Thanks for the response PJ. I checked resistance between my ground and neutral on the plug with the key on and had an open circuit. Any other ideas?
 
Did you wire the neutral on the panel drop through the GFI or to the neutral buss in the panel, if not through the GFI then it will trip every time you try a 120V circuit. Refer to the GFI breaker wiring diagram for 3 wire installations, if load not balanced on hot leads the GFI breaker trips unless neutral is routed through GFI breaker.
 
Can you do the same test set up and then manually pick the power contactors that would power up when you turn the key? (It would be as though it was being powered.)

You just need to look for a compromise between the neutral and ground within the panel. The next step would be to look for any form of a short from any of the hot connections to neutral or ground.
 
Did you wire the neutral on the panel drop through the GFI or to the neutral buss in the panel, if not through the GFI then it will trip every time you try a 120V circuit. Refer to the GFI breaker wiring diagram for 3 wire installations, if load not balanced on hot leads the GFI breaker trips unless neutral is routed through GFI breaker.
That is an excellent point as any load would trip the GFCI if it is not setup right.
The breaker neutral input is a pigtail wire.
The breaker neutral output comes from a terminal on the breaker and must be the one going to your load..
 
Looks like the neutral was wired to the panel neutral instead of through the GFI, it will trip every time you try to use 120V to neutral devices. Here is the install bulletin for reference http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/QO-QOB%20Circuit%20Breakers/QO-EPD/48840-473-01.pdf, at the lower edge where the white wire leaves the breaker is the connection point for the neutral wire. I would ask the guilty party to come back and fix this for free as it was wired incorrectly, and probably not inspected as that would have been an obvious problem for GFI installation.
 
That's it right there.

The image is a little small to really view so I used the zoom feature to see the setup.

The 240V black and red wires are coming from the GFCI breaker. - That's good.
The green wire ground is coming from the grounding bus on the lower right. That's good.

Now, the neutral to your brew rig is coming from the neutral bus on the right side of the mains panel. That is the problem. There should be another spot on the left side of the GFCI breaker where the load neutral wire must be attached. Just move the white wire to that breaker terminal screw.
 
I hate to ask but did a licensed electrician do this, as the use of SO cord in a panel and no visible restraint or protection for the cord entry in the panel raises warning flags for me.
 
They are licensed and I have contacted them regarding it. I believe there is a collar on the entry point but you're right, there is no restraint. I'll wait and see what they say about it. Thanks again for all your help!
 
From the spec sheet:
Notes: Suitable only for feeding 240VAC and 208VAC loads. Does not contain load neutral connection.
That simply sucks!

Do you need a 60A GFCI breaker or can you make do with a 50A? (BTW their price is way off the wall.!)

Reason I'm asking is that there is a $50.00 solution for you if there is a HomeDepot near you.
 
The desire for 60A comes from wanting to run both elements at the same time (double batches) which should only take me to 45A but I added a bit of margin in there for safe measure. My fermentation setup will be my bottleneck for a while so I don't need the capability immediately.

The electrician is suggesting a 50A breaker as well. I do have an HD nearby, suggestions?

Thanks!
 
Another thought. I've done a search on the "net" on that breaker. Most all sites state it is a 120/240 breaker.

Is there any chance that you can snap a picture of the left end of the breaker an post it? (I'm interested in seeing the the connection side. you would need to pull the breaker to do that.)

Something is really wrong here. If it were a 240V only GFCI breaker, it would not have the white neutrel wire as part of the assembly.
 
The desire for 60A comes from wanting to run both elements at the same time (double batches) which should only take me to 45A but I added a bit of margin in there for safe measure. My fermentation setup will be my bottleneck for a while so I don't need the capability immediately.

The electrician is suggesting a 50A breaker as well. I do have an HD nearby, suggestions?

Thanks!
There is a GE SPA Panel available at HD for $50 that has a 50A GFCI in it. You could hook it up as a sub panel for input to your brewery.

Let me know if that is of interest to you. I want to help.

BTW: I really want to see the image I referenced in my last post. Please!

P-J
 
The most you can hope for is a 50Amp Square D 3 wire GFI, Siemens makes a 60 amp but the entire panel would need to be replace with ITE/Siemens panel. Might be easier to just run a separate 20 Amp 120 GFI protected circuit for the controls and pumps.
 
picture of the breaker: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/97Vd-i1JouA1DQvyWd0n0gXO0KiudUnSl2GOfyShHAY?feat=directlink

The documentation that came with the breaker calls out the 120/240 like you pointed out PJ. That doesn't make sense at all if it can't we wired up for that.

At this point I'm probably just looking to replace the breaker with a 50A version since the bulk of the work is already done to go this route. It won't impact me initially but if I do start double batching I'll have watch out for this.
 
Take a look at this link > Spa Panel from Home Depot. It is a 50A GFCI panel that is failry cheap. You can set it up this way:

Spa-Panel.jpg


Also in reference to your concern about using a 50A breaker. I don't think it will be a problem for your rig. You would draw 46A using 2 5500W elements. There is enough margin left for 2 pumps and your PID controllers.

If by chance it gives you some issues, just change the HLT element out to a 5000W element:
Rheem SP10869NL 240V 5000W Stainless Steel Element.
That would give you a very good margin.

I hope this is of some help.

P-J
 
Thanks for all the input guys. Like I mentioned earlier I'll probably go with the 50A to save any more time & effort. It will be more than sufficient for the time being and in the worst case scenario it'll just take me a little longer to crank out two batches running one element at a time. Once I get this setup working and the pipeline filled, I'll revisit the issue.

Thanks again! :mug:
 
Not a good idea to operate near the trip point on the breaker, better to be operating at 80% maximum rating on a continuous basis because of heating inside breaker and enclosure. Here is a link to a page describing why that is standard practice http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_sizing_circuit_breaker/.
I firmly believe this is a piece of information that is severely distorted in many ways. The link posted quotes the supposed NEC info that does not exist in the current NEC code. The post you quoted was from 1996 and it in now 2011 with many code changes in between.

Another thought: The 80% rule, often quoted, applies to multi drop outlet circuits. It does NOT apply to a single drop outlet, i.e. a single circuit outlet for a dryer, range or some other single outlet receptacle. With a single outlet circuit, the current draw can be at or near the limit of the breaker without issue, standard breaker or GFCI. Also, the 80% rule in the code applies to the architect, builder and the electrician ......it does not apply to the home owner using his home. It is a design and build issue.

You would expect an "electrician" to know their stuff, but, a lot of them do not. Info is frequently pulled out of their - - never mind.

BTW, do you have the current NEC code manual?

You want to learn more? Do a check up on Arc Fault Breakers. Or, for that matter, check on today's code for GFCI circuits and where they must be implemented. Things have changed dramatically - but - a lot of them do not apply unless the facility has been wired since the particular code change was implemented.

For example: You have a home that was wired in 1938. Is knob and tube wiring in it ok today?

Rant over - I'm done. :(
 
The NEC advice has been around a long time, that was the first example that popped up in a google search. As to whether I have the NEC code book, I have the 2008 and am waiting for the 2011 version to arrive as it is needed to review installations by the electrical contractors, and panel construction in the industrial process control system installation business that I do.
 
Something is really wrong here. If it were a 240V only GFCI breaker, it would not have the white neutrel wire as part of the assembly.

It's possible that the electronics used for the GFCI within the breaker operate on 120V, so the neutral pigtail is possibly just feeding the GFCI sense/trip stuff.

It's still weird though.
 
It's possible that the electronics used for the GFCI within the breaker operate on 120V, so the neutral pigtail is possibly just feeding the GFCI sense/trip stuff.

It's still weird though.
Ah Ha.! Bingo!! It is there to provide the leakage path to allow the 'test' button to operate.

What is really bad is that most every site where I find that breaker states that it is a 120/240V breaker. It is not.!
 
I switched it out with the 3 wire 50A breaker and the control panel works perfectly. Of all the wiring in that control panel, I never figured my problem would be the breaker. Definitely, learned a lot with this build. Off to tune my PIDs and get ready for the maiden brew!
 
Just wanted to quickly add to this discussion. My setup is a Kal-inspired control panel (though customized/simplified), and I had installed a Square D 30A 240V double pole GFCI breaker (QO230GFI). I was having essentially the exact same problem: flipping the power switch and sending any current through the box would result in an immediate breaker trip. Turns out I didn't look closely at the breaker itself when I installed it... like the other breakers in my panel, I wired the neutral lead coming from the dryer outlet to the breaker panel bus... not the GFCI breaker itself! I have successfully installed 120V GFCI breakers before, but obviously I forgot this crucial detail. I thought I had done my research, but it pays to read the installation guide...

So, prost to the HBT forums for restoring my sanity, and let this serve as a cautionary/educational tale for others getting started on the journey of electric brewing! I must have gone over all the connections in my panel ten times and couldn't figure out the problem... turns out it wasn't the panel to begin with!
 
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