Am I cursed? Dead white labs again?

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bakins

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So, I must be cursed. my 5th (yes 5th) apparent dead vial of white labs. Yes, all with starters. On last few I've taken gravity readings and had no change after 24 hours. With Wyeast smack packs, my starters are done after 24 hours. I've done dozens of batches with Wyeast and never had a single issue. More beer, however, sells only Whitelabs, and I order from them when the deal of the day looks good.

So, either I have extremely bad luck or something else is going on. Last time, I had another vial of the same type that I pitched in with it and the beer turned out fine.

And, yes, I've had 5 vials do just fine as I would expect.

Am I just impatient? Isn't 24 hours enough for a starter? On this batch, same deal with a vial of wlp007. I have another vial, should I give it a shot?

Long story, but I have little hope of getting a replacement/refund from more beer. (Don't ask, just too long and confusing...) Most of these vials were actually replacement vials from a UPS screw-up.
 
That is verry odd. White Labs makes a very high quality product. You've probably looked at the usual suspects here, but I'd look at the expiration date on the vial, was it shipped with a cool pack to keep it cool? What were the temperaures in the zones the yeast would have shipped through? If the yeast starts getting over 90 degrees you can get into trouble as that is about where they start dropping off. That is the first thing I'd try to look at.

I'd say in most cases 24 hours in a starter is enough time to see some activity or drop in gravity. What size starter, what gravity, and is the starter on a stir plate? How long did you let the starter go before you decided it was bad?
 
This sounds like your problem... 5 vials in the same shipment suggests bad shipping conditions to me.

Well, the 5 bad weren't the same shipment. And all the vials from the known "bad shipment" weren't counted toward this 5. (They sat on a dock for like 4 days bcs someone screwed up.)
 
- but I'd look at the expiration date on the vial

couple on months away in all cases.

- was it shipped with a cool pack to keep it cool?

Yes

- What size starter, what gravity, and is the starter on a stir plate?

Usually 2 quarts at 1.040

- How long did you let the starter go before you decided it was bad?

24 hours. I can't cancel brew days when I get a chance to brew bcs, so I work around it - use a dry pack, hope I have a vial/pack of something similar, etc.

All had "bubbles" in the vial when I shook them. Of course, that's not a real telling factor.

I guess I'm that .01% guy. I'm letting this started go another day, just bcs that $7 wasted if I use my other vial of WLP007.

Never had a single issue with wyeast...
 
I would find a retail store, even online, that is closer to you than California. White Labs ships in styrofoam packaging with ice packs and has the packinging down solid. From there you are trusting for it to be stored, repackaged, kept cold and shipped, all under ideal conditions before it gets to you.

Midwest, Northern Brewer, and Austin HBS would all be vastly closer.

Minimize the distance between the store and you.
 
Midwest, Northern Brewer, and Austin HBS would all be vastly closer.

And they all sell wyeast, as well. Only reason I've ever bought white labs was bcs that's what B3 sells. (FWIW, the guys who came up with deal-of-the-day, but free shipping is at $59 are marketing geniuses. Like, I'll buy a small deal for $10 at a "big" discount only to spend $50 on misc. stuff.)

Every vial that turned out well made good beer, so I don't doubt the yeast quality.

I guess I'll just avoid buying yeast from B3... No offense to them, but not a good statistical bet...
 
You can't expect it to sit in a truck a long time in the summer heat and live, even with an ice pack. Did you do the free shipping from morebeer? If so it takes 8 days for them to get to Tenn.

Also you don't need to change your brew days, make your starters 3 to 4 days early in case there's a problem.
 
bakins said:
Well, the 5 bad weren't the same shipment.

Sorry - I read that into it.

All had "bubbles" in the vial when I shook them. Of course, that's not a real telling factor.

I guess I'm that .01% guy. I'm letting this started go another day, just bcs that $7 wasted if I use my other vial of WLP007.

Never had a single issue with wyeast...

What do you mean by "bubbles in the vial"? The yeast are going to be dormant when you get the vial (assuming they are not dead!), not bubbling...

And how are you telling if your starter is growing? How do you grow your starters for wyeast yeast?

TBH, I doubt if this is a White Labs problem per se.
 
Huh? Are these the "dead" vials you are talking about here? I can't quite parse your grammar.

The vials that I used in the starters that behaved as expected, ie, fermented, when pitched, produced good beer. (Sorry, I speak code a lot better than english. I could probably write a state machine to explain it...)

The dead vials, obviously, produced nothing.

So if it is a shipping issue, then the cold packs are useless. But, once the package actually ships, I get them in about 5 days - same as when I order Wyeast from NB, MW, etc. (Most of the wait time with B3 is them actually putting the order together.) Perhaps, I should do another test and order a couple of vials of whitelabs from one of those vendors.
 
So, anyway to this batch. Should I give it another day or so, or just declare it dead?

I no-chill, FWIW, so I've got time, I just generally don't go over 48 hours before pitching. I usually start my starter on brew day, then about 36 hours later pitch the whole thing.

Update: decided to just use the second vial of wlp007. chances are it's dead too. Have some nottingham as a backup.
 
Not to state the obvious, but you probably shouldn't order liquid yeast from somewhere 2,500 miles away anymore.

I don't know if you've ever been in the back of an 18-wheeler in the summer, but it's like 120°F or more in there. You'd need about 20 ice packs for it to make it to Georgia alive 10 times out of 10.
 
I have had Wyeast smack-packs take up to 5 days to show signs of activity in a starter. While 24 hours is the norm, longer lags are not unheard of.

-Joe
 
I haven't had great luck with White Labs either. Probably a third of the starters I've attempted didn't do anything, and some took so long to start that I altered my brew plans. Of course, my local home brew shop seems to always have old (but not ancient) tubes of WL, it might be an age factor. Currently, the only yeast I REALLY need as liquid is WLP 530. I've just started using real Hefe yeast (WLP 300), so maybe that too. Other than that, I'll just still to ol' reliable S-04. US-04 and Notty too.

I think I might switch to smack packs, and order several packs of the two yeasts above during cooler months, and try to have some on hand during summer. Which, in Florida, is like April - October :(
 
I doubt if it's your yeast that's the problem. What's your starter technique/process? :confused:

The same process that always works great with Wyeast from AHS, NB, and MW...

I think that no matter how the yeast is treated (started, ice packs, etc.) 2500 miles in the summer is a good way to kill it. I'll stick to much closer vendors for liquid yeast from here on.
 
The same process that always works great with Wyeast from AHS, NB, and MW...

I think that no matter how the yeast is treated (started, ice packs, etc.) 2500 miles in the summer is a good way to kill it. I'll stick to much closer vendors for liquid yeast from here on.
OK, as long as your process is the same then maybe it is the yeast...;)
 
I buy all my yeast from More Beer. I do have the benefit of driving there and getting my ingredients in person. But I have never had a bad vile of yeast.
 
Food for thought. Maybe you should do a big batch of starter, separate it into 12 oz beer bottles and put them into your fridge. That way you will have yeast that you know is alive.
 
I just used a vial of belgin wit yeast from White Labs yesterday. I ordered from AHS. I didn't use a starter. Pitched it at 7:00 PM yesterday. Woke up this morning and already had a bubble per second going

I read this thread earlier and it made me worry since it was my first time using liquid yeast. I would have made a starter but didn't have any DME or time to get it going. Looks like it worked out ok though.
 
I live in Illinois by the way. Was worried about it shipping from Texas lol. I added the ice pack but it was not even cold by the time it got to me.
 
I've definitely had some liquid yeast take its sweet time to get going.

I finally decided that I'm going to make my starter over a week before brew day, let it ferment completely, put in the fridge, and harvest the settled yeast. I decant the "wort," pour in some sterile water, and then pour the yeast mess into a flip-top beer bottle.

I like this method because I don't like the thought of adding the all that starter volume to my beer.
 
I generally just get my liquid yeast from my LHBS and haven't had any issue with their stock.

I've ordered both White Labs and Wyeast from several online vendors and at various points through out the year, w/ ice in the summer, and I've only encountered dead yeast in one shipment......2 vials and 1 smack pack, all from the same vendor arrived DOA.
 
I generally just get my liquid yeast from my LHBS and haven't had any issue with their stock.

My LHBS is about 2 hours away with traffic :(

I generally use either Notty or US-05 for my "American" Styles and s-04 for my "British" Styles. I do a good bit of Belgians, and there really aren't any good Belgian dry yeasts that I've found.
 
I had my first dead vial on my recent Pliny clone from AHS with a WLP001. I put it in with some wort from the brew, about 2/3 gallon on the stir plate, put plenty of oxygen in it and nothing after 48 hours.

I pitched some US-05 last night right when I went to bed and had a blow off this morning.

I am wondering if I should contact AHS, the vial didn't have much yeast in it and was mostly liquid at least compared to all the other White Labs I have had.
 
I live in Illinois by the way. Was worried about it shipping from Texas lol. I added the ice pack but it was not even cold by the time it got to me.

Hi Yeast. Bev-Art is a LHBS in the city's Beverly neighborhood, 101st and Western. They have a nice selection of White Labs - it might be worth a trip for yoy to drive in and stock up.
 
man i tell you what, alot of the time when people make starters and then say there yeast is dead , it just that the yeast ate all to sugar so fast they did not see it.

i know sounds crazy but i have seen it and heard it over and over it has even happond to me. years back i got some whitelabs from morebeer and made a starter, "nothing" happond and i called complaning my yeast was dead, the dude asked me a bunch on questions and then said" i tell you what, you dump that stater on your beer and if it does not ferment in 48hr and turn out fine i will send you a new kit" well sure anuff i pitched it and after about 38hr it took off and that beer turned out great, i told this story to the local hbs and thay are doing the same thing and are saveing money because thay allmost never have to send out new grain vs yeast

i have had a few steam beers w/liquid yeast over the years take along time to start the longest was just a 72hr i was sweating andf paceing because most of the time my stuff is going in 12 and blasting off at 24 , but i reuse my yeast
 
Am I just impatient? Isn't 24 hours enough for a starter? On this batch, same deal with a vial of wlp007. I have another vial, should I give it a shot?

I'm sorry but I am going to go with this, that yes you are impatient and more often than not it CAN take longer than 24 hours for a yeast starter to take off. I find it highly doubtful that you had 1 let alone 5 vials of bad yeast.


I am going to give you all my standard rant about how, for the most part, the idea of "bad yeast" is really bogus....

Of a dozen or more starters and yeasts harvests, I have only had one that ever krauzened, and NONE that never took off, given enough time and patience.

Of god knows how many batches of beer I have made....I have never had fermentation not start, or a beer not turn out ok, and I have never ever ever had to add more yeast to a beer.

Except for infecting a starter due to poor sanitization, it really really is hard for yeast NOT to do what they do naturally.

That's how we can make a huge starter from the dregs of a bottle of beer...we let the viable (living) cells reproduce, and we feed them incrementally, and they continue to reproduce.

Next time don't be so "paranoid" about the yeast. And don't be so quick to count it out.

Seriously most LHBS know enough about what they are doing in terms of proper yeast storage, same with suppliers, it doesn't take a genius these days to know how to stick liquid (and dry yeasts usually) in a fridge, and ship in bulk in a styrofoam cooler.

We're talking billion dollar corporations (the yeast labs, and that's what they are LABS) and they aren't going to risk their rep by letting their suppliers and stores that carry their stuff , handle it improperly.

Besides...Yeast IS hardier than most newish brewers wanna give them props for...I mean You can't say that THIS YEAST was stored "properly" and yet, they managed to make a batch of beer with it.

45 million year old yeast ferments amber ale

If we can make beer with that....even the tiniest viable glop in a barely smacked pack, is going to work as well. :D

Gang I can't say this enough;

Unless you bought liguid yeast through the mail in the heat of summer, or added your yeast into boiling wort. your fermentation will happnen.

Yeast just don't not work anymore, that is an idea that came from the bad old days before homebrewing was legalized in 1978 when yeast came in hard cakes that travelled in hot cargo holds of ships ...And then sat under the lid of blue ribbon malt extract for god knows how long on grocery stores shelves.

But since 1978 yeast science has been ongoing and the yeasts of today, wet OR dry are going to work in 99.9% of the situations we have, if you give them the time to do so.

But every noob who starts an "my yeast is dead thread" just really pertpetuates a fear that has come from way back then, they got it from Papazain and other brew books written Thirty or more years ago, and were told horror stories of those yeasts, and it influenced their writing, which influence nervous noob brewers as well.

And then, most of the time, you new brewers then freak each other out!!!! You see an "infection" or "Not fermenting" thread title, or 10 on a given day :D and most of you don't even read the story behind it...you just see a dozen yeast is f-d up threads...and then believe my yeast has the potential to be f-d up.

But as the guy who answers those questions on a daily basis and finds out that no hydro reading was taken, nor has it been 72 hours, and THEY (not you) ARE going by airlock bubbling- AND when they do take a hydro reading or pop the bucket lid, they see that there was a krausen....and most of the time they actually post back, to say they were being paranoid, and fermentation DID happen.

But to someone who actually doesn't follow up on those threads, they think that yeast is so damn fragile....when it is the brewer's nerves that are. :D

But Unless you bought yeast through the mail in the heat of summer, or dumped it in boiling wort 99% of the time your yeast will do it's job...no matter what the title of many threads APPEAR to say.

Yeast handling and growing is a science, AND a BUSINESS[EVEN DRY YEAST GANG, they are all grown in labs, not fly by night operations (that's why the whole argument about dry being sub-par to liquid is really idiotic)..and with the internet, and books, and magazines, including this months BYO btw, even the most inbred LHBS employee SHOULD and probably does know how to properly handle and store yeast prior to selling it to you.



So Even if you don't pitch into the batch you planned and go with another yeast, don't toss out that starter. Give it a couple more feedings, wash it and either slant or mason jar it and store it for later use.

Yeast are really tenacious critters, except in the rarest and most extreme circumstances, they will survive, reproduce and work for you. If they can harvest 4500 year old yeast from a hunk of amber, then even a deflated smack pack, or properly stored outdated tube, will more than likely still have enough viable cells to reproduce into a starter.

Bobby M recently did a test on year old store yeast here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/testing-limits-yeast-viability-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes. I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.

I don't know if you know the story of Charlie Papazian's yeast (White Labs "Cry Havoc") or not. He talked about it on basic brewing. The recipes in both Papazian's books, The Complete Joy of Homebrewing and The Homebrewers Companion, were originally developed and brewed with this yeast. Papazian had "Cry Havoc" in his yeast stable since 1983.

He has used it nearly continuously since 83, sometimes pitching multiple batches on top of a cake, sometimes washing or not washing, etc. In a basic brewing podcast iirc last year he talked about how a batch of the yeast after a lot of uses picked up a wild mutation, and he noticed an off flavor in a couple batches.

Now most of us would prolly dump that yeast. Instead he washed it, slanted or jarred it (I can't recall which,)marked it, and cold stored it, and pretty much forgot about it for 10-15 years. He had plenty other slants of the yeast strain, so he left it alone.

Well evidently he came across that container of yeast, and for sh!ts and giggles made a beer with it. Evidently after all those years in storage, the wild or mutated yeast died out leaving behind a few viable cells of the "pure" culture, which he grew back into a pretty hardy strain...which iirc is the culture that White Labs actually used for their cry havoc...because of it's tenacity and survivability.

It really to me, just goes to show once again how really hard it is to f up this beermaking, and that to give the yeast the props they deserve.

Either, like Clayton said your starter took off and finished really quick with little "signs" that it happened or that there was a lag time, that you didn't wait for. Either way I have a feeling you dumped out 5 perfectly good starters.
 
So, I must be cursed. my 5th (yes 5th) apparent dead vial of white labs. Yes, all with starters. On last few I've taken gravity readings and had no change after 24 hours. With Wyeast smack packs, my starters are done after 24 hours. I've done dozens of batches with Wyeast and never had a single issue. More beer, however, sells only Whitelabs, and I order from them when the deal of the day looks good.

So, either I have extremely bad luck or something else is going on. Last time, I had another vial of the same type that I pitched in with it and the beer turned out fine.

And, yes, I've had 5 vials do just fine as I would expect.

Am I just impatient? Isn't 24 hours enough for a starter? On this batch, same deal with a vial of wlp007. I have another vial, should I give it a shot?

Long story, but I have little hope of getting a replacement/refund from more beer. (Don't ask, just too long and confusing...) Most of these vials were actually replacement vials from a UPS screw-up.
I was just about to post a similar complaint. Evidently (according to one post here) shipping conditions are not ideal for White labs. Surely they have some guidelines for these things. Never had a problem with Wyeast but I received two vials of White Labs in August with an October expiration date which I was unhappy with. I hear others bragging on White Labs but these bad experiences are enough to turn one away from it.
 
man i tell you what, alot of the time when people make starters and then say there yeast is dead , it just that the yeast ate all to sugar so fast they did not see it.

Except when the gravity 48 hours later is the exact same as when they made the starter...
 
But Unless you bought yeast through the mail in the heat of summer

Let's see:

- Summer - check
- mail order - check

(and yes, got the ice pack)

My conundrum is that I never had these issues ordering wyeast. Of course, as others pointed out, this was from suppliers about half as far away as b3.
 
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