ABV tampering advice, what do you think?

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freisste said:
Thanks, Yooper. So for the record, my LHBS wasn't crazy when they suggested 165 for 10 min considering it was an extract brew.



I was told a few weeks ago that the time/temp wasn't critical because I was only after color/flavor, not fermentibles, but I tend to believe everything I read on the internet...

P.S. I grew up in the UP.
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No, your LHBS wasn't crazy with the 165 degrees for 10 minutes. I'll suggest you go more for the 150 and here's my reasoning. If you practice going for 150, you'll get better at it and will be able to get pretty close to that temperature.

Hmm.....mashing temperature are right in that range so if you were to include some base malt sometime you could easily end up with a partial mash.

Gosh, the difference between a partial mash and a BIAB all grain is really only a difference of volumes so now that you can keep your temperature steady at 152, you can be doing all grain if you wish. :rockin:
 
Now that you mention it, I'm practically a professional...:)

Actually I am pretty good at holding temps steady, but that mostly due to my gas stove which is so much more responsive than electric! Pretty glad my wife insisted when we bought our house.
 
Hey guys, OP here, while we're somewhat on topic I wanted to ask about steeping grains. The reason I guess I initially was mentioning getting some ABV%/fermentables from grains is from all of the beer calculus/beer calculator/beersmith type programs out there. I know you aren't trying to get alcohol from your steeping grains, as that isnt the point, and I know they don't lend much fermentable sugar, or any as some argue. (I'm a newbie so I defer to all you guys for that debate). However universally, in those programs (beersmith,beer calculus, etc.) the ABV% goes up with steeping grains and down without. It can go as far as taking an LME only beer from 4.2% to 5.3% if you say toss in 3 lbs of grain for steeping (and yes steeping not mashing). I view that as pretty significant to understand as I continue learning and brewing. So.....Is this erroneous? Why the spike in ABV% on these programs if you steep? It just seems contradictory to me because I hear some say you wont get ANYTHING fermentable from grains, yet if the programs have any accuracy, a 3lb steep can yield over 1% ABV. What am I missing guys? thanks in advance
 
or maybe that's a little high...let's say 0.8%-1%...the question remains though
 
papa87 said:
Hey guys, OP here, while we're somewhat on topic I wanted to ask about steeping grains. The reason I guess I initially was mentioning getting some ABV%/fermentables from grains is from all of the beer calculus/beer calculator/beersmith type programs out there. I know you aren't trying to get alcohol from your steeping grains, as that isnt the point, and I know they don't lend much fermentable sugar, or any as some argue. (I'm a newbie so I defer to all you guys for that debate). However universally, in those programs (beersmith,beer calculus, etc.) the ABV% goes up with steeping grains and down without. It can go as far as taking an LME only beer from 4.2% to 5.3% if you say toss in 3 lbs of grain for steeping (and yes steeping not mashing). I view that as pretty significant to understand as I continue learning and brewing. So.....Is this erroneous? Why the spike in ABV% on these programs if you steep? It just seems contradictory to me because I hear some say you wont get ANYTHING fermentable from grains, yet if the programs have any accuracy, a 3lb steep can yield over 1% ABV. What am I missing guys? thanks in advance
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I set my BeerSmith to "Extract", adding ~3 lbs of caramel 40 raises the OG by .003. The ABV by .3%. That's regardless of the amount of LME added. To me, that's insignificant. Now, conversely, if I set the BS to "All Grain", the same ~3# of cara 40 adds .013 to the OG and about 1.4% abv. That's because when set to AG, it's assuming a mash with some malt with diastatic power to convert the sugars in the cara 40 (even if you don't include any base malt in the recipe, it makes the assumption because of the "All Grain" setting). In a steep, you're only soaking the grains, in a mash, you're actually converting the starches in those grains into fermentable (and unfermentable) sugars because of the enzymes present in the base malt.
Steeping is very different from mashing when it comes to the sugars gained from the process. When steeping specialty grains you get very little other than color and flavor. But... if you mash those specialty grains with base malt, you'll get some fermentables out of them.
Hope that makes sense. :mug:
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
In a steep, you're only soaking the grains, in a mash, you're actually converting the starches in those grains into fermentable (and unfermentable) sugars because of the enzymes present in the base malt.
Steeping is very different from mashing when it comes to the sugars gained from the process. When steeping specialty grains you get very little other than color and flavor. But... if you mash those specialty grains with base malt, you'll get some fermentables out of them.
Hope that makes sense. :mug:
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But if all the starch in crystal malts is converted into sugar how are you getting more sugars while mashing with base malt ?
 
madchemist83 said:
But if all the starch in crystal malts is converted into sugar how are you getting more sugars while mashing with base malt ?
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The starch in crystal malts would only be converted to sugar if it was mashed. When steeped, you're only able to rinse of the crystalized sugars on/in the grain. Thus the difference between the way my software was viewing crystal malts in an All Grain batch as opposed to an Extract batch. I know it's against forum rules to tell someone to "go read" or "Google it", but please do some reading on these crystal malts and how they're made. You either seem very confused about this topic or are just..... we'll leave it at you being confused.
 
There actually has been arguments/discussions about whether steeping grains indeed do need to be crushed. But usually the people who don't believe you need to crush them forget an essential part of cooking, which homebrewing is really nothing more than a form of cooking. The principles still apply.

When you're using anything that is meant to be contributing flavor and/or aroma, like a spice or an herb for instance, especially if it is dry, it is always recommended that those things be crushed in some way (or bruised in the case of herbs.) When things are in contact with the air a certain level of oxidation occurs on the surface of things. By crushing them you release more of the aroma/flavor compounds that are still inside and not oxidized. Take any dry herb like oregano or a piece of coriander and smell it before and after crushing, and you'll see how much more aroma there is after.
 
I understand what you're saying Nordeast, I'm just perplexed by why Beer Calculus/Brewers Friend Calculator SPECIFICALLY set to extract/extract with steeping grains (nothing mash, partial mash, all grain etc.) does what it does. One program says I'm going from 4.5% ABV to 5.3%, while the other says I'm going from 4.5% to 5.8% ABV.....all hinging on me STEEPING 1 lb flaked wheat, 1lb munich malt 10L, 1lb white wheat malt. If I was not adding those steeping grains, I would get 4.5%ABV from the 6.6 lbs of LME. These programs must be inaccurate, because the numbers completely suggest you ARE in fact getting at least some fermentable sugars in your steep, otherwise that 4.5% wouldn't budge hardly at all. To me, these would definitely be significant ABV increases, if accurate. I'm not saying it's right I'm just saying this is what two programs are telling me. If you are wondering what I mean just do a quick http://beercalculus.hopville.com/recipe OR http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator/ with the ingredients mentioned above. 5 gallon 60 minute boil, extract etc. I know in the end the gravity readings will be the judge and jury, but I just find it confusing programs would suggest these ABV boosts from a steep
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
The starch in crystal malts would only be converted to sugar if it was mashed. When steeped, you're only able to rinse of the crystalized sugars on/in the grain. Thus the difference between the way my software was viewing crystal malts in an All Grain batch as opposed to an Extract batch. I know it's against forum rules to tell someone to "go read" or "Google it", but please do some reading on these crystal malts and how they're made. You either seem very confused about this topic or are just..... we'll leave it at you being confused.
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Yes and it is mashed and that's how it's converted into sugar. Mash inside the grain
 
papa87 said:
I understand what you're saying Nordeast, I'm just perplexed by why Beer Calculus/Brewers Friend Calculator SPECIFICALLY set to extract/extract with steeping grains (nothing mash, partial mash, all grain etc.) does what it does. One program says I'm going from 4.5% ABV to 5.3%, while the other says I'm going from 4.5% to 5.8% ABV.....all hinging on me STEEPING 1 lb flaked wheat, 1lb munich malt 10L, 1lb white wheat malt. If I was not adding those steeping grains, I would get 4.5%ABV from the 6.6 lbs of LME. These programs must be inaccurate, because the numbers completely suggest you ARE in fact getting at least some fermentable sugars in your steep, otherwise that 4.5% wouldn't budge hardly at all. To me, these would definitely be significant ABV increases, if accurate. I'm not saying it's right I'm just saying this is what two programs are telling me. If you are wondering what I mean just do a quick http://beercalculus.hopville.com/recipe OR http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator/ with the ingredients mentioned above. 5 gallon 60 minute boil, extract etc. I know in the end the gravity readings will be the judge and jury, but I just find it confusing programs would suggest these ABV boosts from a steep
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Hmmm, I've never used either of those calcs that you linked, but I'll check them (maybe just one since you're getting similar results) out and see how it compares to what BS2 is saying. My guess, and this is just a guess but it's based on your numbers jiving with what BS gives me when set to 'AG', is that those calcs are assuming some conversion even when set to 'extract'. Hopefully someone who's used one of those can chime in.
Experience, is that just steeping grains lends little the the SG of the wort, but next time I brew an extract beer (next week), I'll steep one lb in one gallon and check the SG of the wort after steeping (it will be .5 lbs of carapils and .5 lbs of cara 10).
I'll post back what I get from the calc(s) that you're using.

Edit: Ok, so I used the Brewers Friend (I couldn't find 'extract' and 'all grain' settings on Hopville) and it did indeed give me the same numbers for 3 lbs of cara 40 regardless of 'extract' or 'AG' settings. OG 1.014 in a 5 gal batch, which jives with what BS gives me when set to 'all grain' (1.013). When BS is set to 'extract', that same 3 lbs gives me and OG of 1.003.
 
Sounds good and I appreciate it. I've used those links due to seeing them repeatedly used throughout this site, in forums etc. I'm no URL/software wiz but I certainly can't find anything saying mash or allgrain method is being used, pretty straight forward ive selected extract from what i've seen in the programs. Certainly could be wrong though.
 
From HBT Wiki:

The crystallization/caramelization process:
To make crystal or caramel malt, maltsters take green malt and, instead of heating it in a dry kiln, stew it in an extremely damp or wet oven. In the presence of water, each kernel of grain essentially undergoes a mash in the hull, converting the grain's starch to sugar. However, since the grain is not crushed, the sugar does not go into solution and create wort. Instead, when the temperature is lowered, the sugar crystallizes in the hull, giving the grain the appearance of a crystal of sugar. The malt is then dried over heat, with the drying temperature and time determining the color and flavor characteristics of the finished product.

This may solve some of the problems here.
 
OG2620 said:
From HBT Wiki:

The crystallization/caramelization process:
To make crystal or caramel malt, maltsters take green malt and, instead of heating it in a dry kiln, stew it in an extremely damp or wet oven. In the presence of water, each kernel of grain essentially undergoes a mash in the hull, converting the grain's starch to sugar. However, since the grain is not crushed, the sugar does not go into solution and create wort. Instead, when the temperature is lowered, the sugar crystallizes in the hull, giving the grain the appearance of a crystal of sugar. The malt is then dried over heat, with the drying temperature and time determining the color and flavor characteristics of the finished product.

This may solve some of the problems here.
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Thanks for wrecking the thread, thread wrecker!! :ban: :mug:

papa87 said:
Sounds good and I appreciate it. I've used those links due to seeing them repeatedly used throughout this site, in forums etc. I'm no URL/software wiz but I certainly can't find anything saying mash or allgrain method is being used, pretty straight forward ive selected extract from what i've seen in the programs. Certainly could be wrong though.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my experience with software spans from BrewPal (iPhone) to BeerSmith 2 and nothing in between. Haven't used anything else other than just playing around. The Hopville seems alot like BrewPal, the BrewersFriend actually seemed like pretty decent software.
What I'm thinking is that the BF calc is making the assumption of conversion even if the grains are only steeped. I am pretty sure that BrewPal did a similar thing, although that's only based on entering my old BP recipes into BS2. In the great scheme of things, I'm not sure this really matters as long as you're hitting your gravity numbers targeted by the software you're using.
 
Well said Nordeast, and I appreciate all the input. I'll let gravities be my primary guide, as anyone should. Just interesting they must assume conversion. Regardless, I greatly look forward to my 2nd batch that isn't "Hefe Ultra", like the original cause of the thread haha :mug:
 
papa87 said:
Well said Nordeast, and I appreciate all the input. I'll let gravities be my primary guide, as anyone should. Just interesting they must assume conversion. Regardless, I greatly look forward to my 2nd batch that isn't "Hefe Ultra", like the original cause of the thread haha :mug:
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Ya know what, if it weren't now autumn, a ~3% hefe would be a perfect beer. I brew a really light honey hefe for summer, clocks in just under 4%. Very light and crisp, but if I use the 3068 yeast it has a nice complexity from the esters and the honey. Enjoy this one for what it is, and go for the double imperial IPA next time out. :mug:
 
madchemist83 said:
But if all the starch in crystal malts is converted into sugar how are you getting more sugars while mashing with base malt ?
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It's "premashed" so to speak, but it still needs to be crushed. The sugars AREN'T on the outside, on the husks (how would that happen?!?) but since it's stewed before kilning, it's already mashed for you so that the sugars are crystallized. Crushing them is imperative, but they can be steeped successfully.
 
By the way, there seems to be some confusion here.

You DO get fermentables from crystal malt, along with color and flavor. The amount of fermentables isn't all that significant (say, 1% ABV or so) but you do get them.

Try it and see! Steep a pound of crystal malt (crushed) in .5 gallon of water. And then take the SG reading of that. You'll have some sugars, for sure!
 
Yooper said:
By the way, there seems to be some confusion here.

You DO get fermentables from crystal malt, along with color and flavor. The amount of fermentables isn't all that significant (say, 1% ABV or so) but you do get them.

Try it and see! Steep a pound of crystal malt (crushed) in .5 gallon of water. And then take the SG reading of that. You'll have some sugars, for sure!
Click to expand...

I'd hate to derail this thread any further, but I have to ask.

Is it true that a crystal malt will have both fermentable and non-fermentable sugars available? And if so, is it possible for the non-fermentable sugars to be broken down by diastatic enzymes in a mash (containing adequate 2-row) which could provide a higher fermentable sugar yield as opposed to merely steeping to strip off the already fermentable sugars?

FWIW, I can start a new thread if needed.
 
OG2620 said:
I'd hate to derail this thread any further, but I have to ask.

Is it true that a crystal malt will have both fermentable and non-fermentable sugars available? And if so, is it possible for the non-fermentable sugars to be broken down by diastatic enzymes in a mash (containing adequate 2-row) which could provide a higher fermentable sugar yield as opposed to merely steeping to strip off the already fermentable sugars?

FWIW, I can start a new thread if needed.
Click to expand...

Boy, I'm not mash chemist, but my understanding is that yes, you may get a little more out of certain specialty grains by mashing them with base malt with excess diastatic power- but not most of them.
 
Yooper said:
It's "premashed" so to speak, but it still needs to be crushed. The sugars AREN'T on the outside, on the husks (how would that happen?!?) but since it's stewed before kilning, it's already mashed for you so that the sugars are crystallized. Crushing them is imperative, but they can be steeped successfully.
Click to expand...

I disagree. You don't have to crush specialty grains to extract flavor and/or color. There is a good article in BYO about it. As an example u can add 1 oz of uncrushed chocolate malt to a lager recipie to give it a touch of nutty flavor. And the part about sugars being on the surface of the grain I think it's possible. Husks can probably leach some sugars during in grain mashing.
 
madchemist83 said:
I disagree. You don't have to crush specialty grains to extract flavor and/or color. There is a good article in BYO about it. As an example u can add 1 oz of uncrushed chocolate malt to a lager recipie to give it a touch of nutty flavor. And the part about sugars being on the surface of the grain I think it's possible. Husks can probably leach some sugars during in grain mashing.
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Ok. I haven't seen the science to support your claims, and I don't know how the sugars escape the endosperm to be embedded in the husks, but whatever you say.


Using a black malt uncrushed to get some color or nutty flavor is one thing, and I suspect you could do that with coffee beans or nuts, but it's not the same as using crystal 20L malt.
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
Hmmm, I've never used either of those calcs that you linked, but I'll check them (maybe just one since you're getting similar results) out and see how it compares to what BS2 is Hopefully someone who's used one of those can chime in.
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For the last year, I have used Brewers Friend almost exclusively as my recipe calculation software. I have done 8 extract/steeping grains batches using their software. I have found their SG calculators to be very accurate. I am getting measured SG readings within .001 or .002 of what BF predicts on every batch. Since their calculator indicates that steeping grains contribute a measureable amount of fermentables to the batch, and my Hydro readings are matching their predictions, it seems to me that steeping grains do actually contribute to SG.

I have some leftover grains from previous batches that I do not currently have plans for. I think it is just under a pound (total) of Flaked Wheat, Oats, Aromatic, and de-bittered black malt. If I have enough time this weekend to do the experiment, I will throw them all in a pot, steep at 152 for 30 minutes, cool to room temp, and measure gravity. That would offer some real insight into this question...
 
I bet if u steep crystal 20l you'll get some flavor. Science behind it is that husk is permeable especially when exposed to water and high temp as it happens during in grain mash. It's definitely insignificant amount, but it's there.
 
DrummerBoySeth said:
You could boil up another couple pounds of DME with more hops than the first attempt to make wort with higher bitterness to add to your fermenter. Add this to the fermenter when the fermentation slows. Staggered sugar additions like this will reduce the chance of stressing the yeast, and help increase the ABV and bitterness. That way you can save the batch.
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I kind of like Drummer's idea.. the later sugar additions would also help dry things out a bit.

Just be sterile about it. :mug:
 
DrummerBoySeth said:
For the last year, I have used Brewers Friend almost exclusively as my recipe calculation software. I have done 8 extract/steeping grains batches using their software. I have found their SG calculators to be very accurate. I am getting measured SG readings within .001 or .002 of what BF predicts on every batch. Since their calculator indicates that steeping grains contribute a measureable amount of fermentables to the batch, and my Hydro readings are matching their predictions, it seems to me that steeping grains do actually contribute to SG.

I have some leftover grains from previous batches that I do not currently have plans for. I think it is just under a pound (total) of Flaked Wheat, Oats, Aromatic, and de-bittered black malt. If I have enough time this weekend to do the experiment, I will throw them all in a pot, steep at 152 for 30 minutes, cool to room temp, and measure gravity. That would offer some real insight into this question...
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Sweet man. I'll do a similar experiment over the weekend. I have some old cara malts and dry yeast that I'm not gonna brew with. I'll put together a pound, crush it (sorry MadChemise83, not gonna steep any uncrushed grain for u :p ), steep in one gallon of water at ~150-ish for 30 mins. I'll check gravity and I'll pitch yeast. Super crude experiments for sure, but it'll get the job done.

Yooper said:
Boy, I'm not mash chemist
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You're obviously not a mad chemist either, Yoop. :ban:



Sorry, I couldn't resist. :mug:
 
DrummerBoySeth said:
For the last year, I have used Brewers Friend almost exclusively as my recipe calculation software. I have done 8 extract/steeping grains batches using their software. I have found their SG calculators to be very accurate. I am getting measured SG readings within .001 or .002 of what BF predicts on every batch. Since their calculator indicates that steeping grains contribute a measureable amount of fermentables to the batch, and my Hydro readings are matching their predictions, it seems to me that steeping grains do actually contribute to SG.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm completely missing something here but isn't it indisputable that steeping grains will contribute to SG/OG?? Yes, steeping will collect sugar. Sugar will affect the SG/OG. That doesn't necessarily equate to FG though, or does it? Edit: Just realised that, of course, steeped grain sugars are going to affect FG. They are going to make the FG higher due to their un-fermentability.:eek:


Whether, or not, that sugar is fermentable or unfermentable, or what percentages of fermentables/unfermentables this sugar comprises, will dictate the resulting FG reading, wouldn't it?? unless I'm totally off the mark (which could very easily be the case)
 
DrummerBoySeth said:
I think it is just under a pound (total) of Flaked Wheat, Oats, Aromatic, and de-bittered black malt. If I have enough time this weekend to do the experiment, I will throw them all in a pot, steep at 152 for 30 minutes, cool to room temp, and measure gravity. That would offer some real insight into this question...
Click to expand...

Hey, I don't want to make your life too complicated, but you could steep each individually to determine if there is a large disparity between each different grain. That would be really cool.

And if I am not making it complicated enough, there are 15 different combinations of those four grains. You could test all of the combos...:)
 
freisste said:
Hey, I don't want to make your life too complicated, but you could steep each individually to determine if there is a large disparity between each different grain. That would be really cool.

And if I am not making it complicated enough, there are 15 different combinations of those four grains. You could test all of the combos...:)
Click to expand...

The amounts that I have are fairly small. Probably 1/2 pound or less of each one (except flaked oats, which I have more than 10 pounds of, because my wife cooks with it!) I do not have enough to do mulitple combinations, but I will have to look and see how much of each I actually have left... I also have an ounce of EKG in the fridge. If I get any sugars out of this crazy experiment, I may have to run out for some yeast and brew up a 1 gallon frankenstein!

It will have to wait until much later this evening, or maybe tomorrow, though, because SWMBO has previous plans that will keep me preoccupied until about 9:00 this evening!
 
No problem. I was mostly kidding. :)

I actually am a little curious about how each individual component reacts, but I am more interested in an overall yes/no. Can't wait to hear the results.
 
Brewer's Friend allows you to set the extraction efficiency for the steeping grains on an extract batch. The recommendation is something low like 25-50% at first.
 

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