Super-Yeast, or is something else going on?)

So far I've done 3 all-grain batches. An amber, an IPA, and a Kolsch. All three have had the correct OG but the final gravity on all 3 batches came to 1.003/4 !!?!

All of the batches taste completely as expected but are hella-dry.

I've verified at the LHBS that my hydrometer is correct.

Two of the batches used 1.25qt water/lb. The IPA used 1.7qts/lb because my mash temp was low at first and I had to add some hot water to bring it up.

With the Kolsch, I intentionally let the mash rest at 160 degrees for 60 min to see if that thickened it up at all; didn't matter, I still got 1.004.

WTF is going on here? Do I have some sort of Super-Ultra-Mega Yeast lurking in my house?

shlap said:

So far I've done 3 all-grain batches. An amber, an IPA, and a Kolsch. All three have had the correct OG but the final gravity on all 3 batches came to 1.003/4 !!?!

All of the batches taste completely as expected but are hella-dry.

I've verified at the LHBS that my hydrometer is correct.

Two of the batches used 1.25qt water/lb. The IPA used 1.7qts/lb because my mash temp was low at first and I had to add some hot water to bring it up.

With the Kolsch, I intentionally let the mash rest at 160 degrees for 60 min to see if that thickened it up at all; didn't matter, I still got 1.004.

WTF is going on here? Do I have some sort of Super-Ultra-Mega Yeast lurking in my house?

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Did you use the same yeast on all of them?


Dan

What yeast strain?

What OG?
...

I know this is going to sound incredibly EAC and I really don't mean it that way. But when you are describing a problem and need a solution you should give us all of the information you can. Like yeast strand, fermenting temp, OG and any other little boring pieces of info you can think of.

The amber and the IPA used White Labs California Ale, the Kolsch used White Labs Kolsch.

OG was 1.056 on the IPA, 1.056 on the Amber, and 1.041 on the Kolsch.

Fermenting temp was between 62-70 with all three. It ranged quite a bit because I had all of the glass primarys in a rubbermaid container, with about 2 inches of water in the bottom, a wet towel wrapped around them and a fan on. The temp never got above 70 though.


I used a starter on the amber but not the IPA or the Kolsch.

I left them all in the primary for about 10 days because they all kept fermenting until then. I figured it was because my temp was on the low side.

I'm trying to think of anything else that might help... my amber is about 1.5 months old and still taste great; aside from being dry.

Let me know if there are any other details that might help.

Thanks!

I did: OG was 1.056 on the IPA, 1.056 on the Amber, and 1.041 on the Kolsch

Did you want the gravitys before the boil?

Ok, you've got 92-94% apparent attenuation, and that just doesn't seem possible. I was hoping your OGs would be really low, then the attenuation wouldn't be so high. I've heard of infection playing a part in low finishing gravity before, but I'm not inclined to blame that just yet. So far, you have me about as stumped as you are!

Yeah, it's pretty strange. The LHBS owner says I'm just making very fermentable wort and to try thickening up my mash. Also, I brought a sample of the Amber in to him and he took the gravity himself with his own hydrometer; same result.

Even if you purposefully made a really fermentable wort it is just not probable that you would reach those attenuations. In fact getting a dry, highly attenuated finish requires good planning. Have you ever used any champagne yeast in your house? I would lean towards a wild yeast infection. I am not aware of anything else that can produce the results you are describing unless for some reason you have hit upon a combination of perfect parameters that would allow your yeast to go far beyond what they are cited to perform at. I am inclined to guess at wild yeast over the latter because of probability alone. To further the case, take Orval for instance. That finishes somewhere at 1.006, which I don't really know of many other commercial examples that come close. This is done in an environment where they make pretty much one beer, with highly adapted strains and near perfect process.

Two questions, have you checked the calibration on the thermometer, and are you using O2 injection for aeration. Have had similar results before during the learning curve on how much O2 to use in 6 gallon batches.

kladue said:

Two questions, have you checked the calibration on the thermometer, and are you using O2 injection for aeration. Have had similar results before during the learning curve on how much O2 to use in 6 gallon batches.

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That was my initial thought as well but he mentioned that the wort was tested at the LHBS with the same results.

zoebisch01 said:

That was my initial thought as well but he mentioned that the wort was tested at the LHBS with the same results.

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Right, I actually brought a sample in to the LHBS and he checked it with his own equipment with the same result.

I DID use champagne yeast at one time in my house about a year ago. I had a few Chimay clones that spent 3 months in the bottle and still wouldn't carbonate because of the high alcohol so I opened 6 bottles and put a tiny pinch of champagne yeast in them.

I brew outside though and pour the wort from the kettle to my primary outside. Is it possible, with a fan blowing on my primary, that some wild champagne yeast is getting in through the airlock?

shlap said:

I DID use champagne yeast at one time in my house about a year ago. I had a few Chimay clones that spent 3 months in the bottle and still wouldn't carbonate because of the high alcohol so I opened 6 bottles and put a tiny pinch of champagne yeast in them.

I brew outside though and pour the wort from the kettle to my primary outside. Is it possible, with a fan blowing on my primary, that some wild champagne yeast is getting in through the airlock?

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You never know, but I doubt it would get through the airlock. Most likely if it did get some it was during transfer just after cooling or got blown into your primary when the lid was off. I always keep my lid on as a rule after I have sanitized and always avoid strong air currents. It really does sound to me like you got some kind of airborne yeast in there. One interesting thing though is if it tastes good and doesn't ferment you all the way out it might be worth culturing if this is indeed the case. It might be fun to play with.

Does the beer taste clean? What I am getting at is the possibility of wild yeast.

A 1.056 OG mashed at 160, even being all 2-row without any specialty grains is going to have a hard time getting that low. What was your pitching volume?

I am puzzled here and almost think you should just keep brewing and see what happens. Watch the water/grain ratio, the mash temp, the pitching rate, all the usual suspects and see what happens.

That or start marketing IPA Dry.

About the only common factor would be the airborne exposure during transfer or a thermometer that is reading 5-10 degrees higher than actual temp. Might be able to get the FG numbers if mash temp was between 140-150 degrees and had a long conversion rest. Might want to check thermometer in boiling water to see if readings are accurate.

Brewpastor said:

Does the beer taste clean? What I am getting at is the possibility of wild yeast.

A 1.056 OG mashed at 160, even being all 2-row without any specialty grains is going to have a hard time getting that low. What was your pitching volume?

I am puzzled here and almost think you should just keep brewing and see what happens. Watch the water/grain ratio, the mash temp, the pitching rate, all the usual suspects and see what happens.

That or start marketing IPA Dry.

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It tastes very clean. I also double-checked the themometer on the last batch by using two different thermometers in the MT (I guess they could both be off but doubtfull).

As far as sanitation, from kettle to primary, here's my process:

I do everything in my garage...
As soon as the 60 min boil is finished, I put the lid on and submerge the lower 3/4 in icewater. Then I fill my primary up to the top with water/iodophore and leave it sit until my kettle cools to about 78 which takes about 45min. When the kettle is cool enough, I empty the iodophore from the primary, take the lid off the kettle, and pour the wort in.

Keep brewing and see what happens. It sounds like you have the right stuff going, so just keep pushing ahead and don't worry about all of this.

Brewpastor said:

Keep brewing and see what happens. It sounds like you have the right stuff going, so just keep pushing ahead and don't worry about all of this.

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Definitely will... I just got home and poured a glass of the amber, a Fat Tire clone, from the keg... this stuff just keeps getting better. Great head and it's really cleared up now and mellowed out... tastes extremely close to the real deal but better head and lacing the whole way down the glass. Mmmmm...beer.

I'm just going to chime in and say I only wish I could get TG's that low, but I really like dry beer... I'm quite happy with a terminal of 8-10, and based on the fact that your beer seems to be getting better and better.... well, maybe it IS equipment error!

Only way I could see is if you have something that is breaking down the unfermentable sugars into fermentables post boil.

Since your flavor is clean... it boggles my mind. In theory there are some flavorless bacteria or wild yeast, fungi etc that can do this, but they are really rare. There's one at the top of my brain I read about last year. Can't remember the name. Regardless..it's very rare. It's got to be something else more simple.

Only other thing is an enzyme like amylase or the one in beano. But then how would they have gotten into your feremeting beer in the first place?

Well, my buddy is a PHD in bio-chemical engineering and works in the ethenol business; he thinks I found a wild strain of yeast that eats a type of sugar that most other yeasts wont. I'm going to send him some of the kolsch yeast cake out of my secondary (since i already threw out my primary cake). He's going to isolate any strain of yeast or bacteria and see what might be causing it. Hopefully a wild (clean tasting) yeast is responsible!

A quick update. I just tested my new Refractometer with a little help from BTP and my FG on the Kolsch came out the same... 1.003. It tasted clean as a whistle though!

Can I have some?

I'd propagate the **** out of that and sell it as the Beano Strain.

Bobby_M said:

I'd propagate the **** out of that and sell it as the Beano Strain.

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Any word from your scientist buddy?

I haven't sent him a sample yet as the Kolsch is still sitting in the secondary. I think I'll move it off the cake tonight, wash the cake a little, and send him a sample tomorrow.

Most likely you have a Saccharomyces diastaticus super attenuator wild yeast strain. This yeast strain is now being looked at for rapid ethonal fuel production. Hard to find any info on that strain. Though this strain tends to impart phenolic flavors.

If your contamination is occuring after transfer to the secondary, this may be the reason you are tasting "clean" beer as it would only be crunching on the dextrins. I dunno.

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.6/allentable.html
The link above lists it as also a haze producer.

[EDIT: Second link stopped working]

I agree about progating it. Could be nice to have for certain beer styles.

I collected three different samples from the secondary tonight. Two for me, and one for my buddy the ethanol guy. I know that culturing from the secondary doesn't produce the greatest results but hey, it's got to be better than culturing from a bottle and I've done that before successfully

I'm going to be sending a sample to my buddy tomorrow. (Thanks for the info, Dennys).