Post boil dilution

Hi people,

Have any of you ever tried to dilute your brew after the boil to get greater volumes for a given boil size?

I ask this as I would like to make 50l batches, my mash tun could take it for say a 1060 or less OG beer, but my kettle is only good for up to 25l batches. Seen this my plan would be to boil, cool of, and then dilute with some bottled water (no nasties there to spoil the beer, as opposed to tap water).

What do you think? Will this make a good beer? Or does a high gravity boil (OGx2) change something in the final product?

Cheers

Greg

I've added filtered water to the cooled wort in my fermenters many, many times and haven't had any problems with the finished beer directly related to doing so. Most extract beer recipe kits actually include this step in their brewing directions.

Of course the final gravity of the finished beer will be diluted and you can expect a lower ABV%, but you still end up with a good session beer.

With the help of beersmith I make 15 gallon batches using my keggel system with no problems so far
The program can be adjusted to accomodate the additional top off water while still hitting your gravities

I have no problem actually diluting and hitting the right targets and all, my question was more along the lines of; does it affect the produced beer to do higher concentration boils and then dilute, and if it does how so?

I mean, if no differenct can be seen between a high concentration boil and a full volume boil, there is no reason to boil full volume! (less volume to boil= less energy = less cost).

There are other issues/problems with doing a partial boil vs. a full boil:

A more concentrated boil decreases your hop utilization.

A more concentrated boil has increased Maillard reaction going on, darkening the wort and producing a different flavor profile.

Ok I figured there should be a reason, thanks for the info!

I agree with the "hop utilization" and "Maillard reaction" answer. I take that into account in my process.

Many large scale breweries use dilution at bottling time (to increase production above fermenter and brewhouse space), my question is:

Is there any difference between pre and post-fermentation dilution?

I show here, how I do 5 gallon ag batches on my stovetop doing high gravity a 3.5 gallon boil down to a 2.5gallon boil and topping off in the fermenter, just like in an extract batch, to 5 gallons.

I've medalled for some of those beers, so I fart in the general direction of those who say it CAN'T be done....

I've done it with everything from pale ales to Ipas to stouts, and they've all turned out. Dark beers, lighter beers, whatever.

broadbill said:

There are other issues/problems with doing a partial boil vs. a full boil:

A more concentrated boil decreases your hop utilization.

Click to expand...

So you over compensate by using more hops, around 18% tends to cover it.

A more concentrated boil has increased Maillard reaction going on, darkening the wort and producing a different flavor profile.

Click to expand...

I call shennagins on this one....never had any issues with that....any darkenning of wort is dilluted back to it's "intended" flavor profile....If that were truly the case we wouldn't have extract beers with a 2.5 gallon topped off to 5 gallons would we?

When we do this ourselves we're really doing nothing more than a maltser does making for example a cooper's kit. They mash the grain, and boil it like we do, adding their hops in, and then concentrating the wort down to a thick syrup.

In our case were only boiling it down a little bit...but if we can make beer from an extract kit that is not a full boil, we can do it for ag beers as well.

Revvy said:

I show here, how I do 5 gallon ag batches on my stovetop doing high gravity a 3.5 gallon boil down to a 2.5gallon boil and topping off in the fermenter, just like in an extract batch, to 5 gallons.

I've medalled for some of those beers, so I fart in the general direction of those who say it CAN'T be done....

I've done it with everything from pale ales to Ipas to stouts, and they've all turned out. Dark beers, lighter beers, whatever.

Click to expand...

I gotta try this one of these days.

I boil 6 gallon batches down to 5 gallons, put in my 6g carboy, let the krausen form and fall, then dilute to fill the carboy. I do this a lot. There is no problem doing this.

Regarding melanoidens and such, no. I just made several consecutive bohemian pilsners, and they were too light (I need to add a pinch of munich malt next time). They were diluted as described above.

I usually add gelatin at the same time that I dilute (in preparation for cold crashing). I used to also dilute at bottling time, but now that I'm kegging I don't have that "opportunity" any longer.

Revvy said:

So you over compensate by using more hops, around 18% tends to cover it.

Click to expand...

Didn't say there weren't ways around it, but the OP was asking what the issues were. Hop utilization is one issue with this method.

Revvy said:

I call shennagins on this one....never had any issues with that....any darkenning of wort is dilluted back to it's "intended" flavor profile

Click to expand...

So if you don't have a problem with it means that nobody has a problem with it?

Revvy said:

....If that were truly the case we wouldn't have extract beers with a 2.5 gallon topped off to 5 gallons would we?

Click to expand...

And there are plenty of posts on this forum of who have posted on here that have had their wort darken more then they have expected...so obviously some people have this issue which I why I mentioned it to the OP.

Revvy said:

When we do this ourselves we're really doing nothing more than a maltser does making for example a cooper's kit. They mash the grain, and boil it like we do, adding their hops in, and then concentrating the wort down to a thick syrup.

In our case were only boiling it down a little bit...but if we can make beer from an extract kit that is not a full boil, we can do it for ag beers as well.

Click to expand...

Didn't say you couldn't do it, but there are issues that may be to be considered.

broadbill said:

So if you don't have a problem with it means that nobody has a problem with it?
.

Click to expand...

Basically, yeah...I figure I've probably done 50 batches this way with no issues. I've probably done more 2.5 gallon top off AG batches on here than anyone. Probably including you.....Basically to prove all the naysayers wrong who've never even tried it, who like to rotely repeat what they've heard.

Like I said earlier I've done everything from the palelest of pales to ipa to stouts, porters, barleywines, belgian strongs, old ales, vienna lagers-I've used a lot of dark grains, and in a boil that really is only netting 1 gallon of evaporation (3.5-2.5) I've never experienced what you claim will happen, and seem to want to dissuade folks from trying it with your assertions.

There's also a few other folks on here in this thread, and this who do it or have done it as well, and we have never have had what you claim occur. Or even been brought up before.

I kinda use myself as a yardstick for these sorts of things, usually by doing them every way possible....

Besides, I always figure if a putz like me can do it and be successful at something, anybody can.

So, it sounds like homebrewers mostly dilute PRE fermentaton... but pros dilute POST fermentation (to save on both the capacity of the boil and the fermenters).

In an interview with Brad Smith..., Jamil Zainasheff listed full wort boil as the 3rd biggest improvement a homebrewer can make. (following fermentation temp control and correct pitching rate).

m1k3 said:

So, it sounds like homebrewers mostly dilute PRE fermentaton...

Click to expand...

Most advanced homebrewers do full wort boils and thus do not have to dilute pre-fermentation.

m1k3 said:

but pros dilute POST fermentation (to save on both the capacity of the boil and the fermenters).

Click to expand...

This is news to me...source?

m1k3 said:

In an interview with Brad Smith..., Jamil Zainasheff listed full wort boil as the 3rd biggest improvement a homebrewer can make. (following fermentation temp control and correct pitching rate).

Click to expand...

I agree...but I've been told that I'm wrong. I guess both Jamil and I are mistaken then...

broadbill said:

I agree...but I've been told that I'm wrong. I guess both Jamil and I are mistaken then...

Click to expand...

We NEVER said full boil brewing it isn't the best way. NO ONE IS DISPUTING THAT!!!! We're just saying that it CAN BE DONE THIS WAY! And has been done successfully by many brewers, and for me it's even resulted in a couple surprising medal for my beers.

Some people just like to regurgitate what they hear without trying stuff or even looking beyond the rote statement, (Like "Adding sugar to a beer will make it cidery.) They just repeat what they hear. Or they are so convinced that something JUST CAN'T WORK, that they don't bother to try and dissuade others to not try.

The OP asked if post boil dillutions in AG brewing was possible....well guess what? IT IS!

That's ALL I'VE BEEN SAYING.

It may not be the BEST way to do it....I do maybe 80% of my beers full boil, BUT come winter rather than not brew, or being limited to just doing small batch stovetop brewing, or freezing my ass off, I started doing it this way, AND MY BEERS HAVE COME OUT FINE....

No issues with Malliard reactions like some folks swear happen, no issues with hop utilization because those of us who do it bump up the hops, none of those issues that should preclude anyone who for whatever reason wants to try it.

It can be done, and has been done...That's all I said....It's just another valid way of doings.....



oh and you know something, sometimes Jamil and Brad Smith just might be wrong about something as well, or just be regurgitating what they heard, AND NEVER TRIED IT FOR THEMSELVES EITHER... We KNOW John Palmer just regurgitated the autolysis myth in How to Brew, and he's now subsequently back pedalled on it, in light of all the evidence of all those folks leaving their beers in primary...He admitted he just passed on the old chestnut without looking into it. Think maybe it's just possible that Brad or Jamil have just done the same thing? *shrug*

broadbill said:

There are other issues/problems with doing a partial boil vs. a full boil:

A more concentrated boil decreases your hop utilization.

A more concentrated boil has increased Maillard reaction going on, darkening the wort and producing a different flavor profile.

Click to expand...

I've done quite a few AG post boil dilution batches myself. Never had any issues with Maillard reactions or darkening. Produced my favorite Cream Ale via this method. It was perfectly light and fit the SRM proflie. I think the Maillard reactions would be a big issue if you were only boiling 1 gallon. But this is over twice that.

The only issue you have, which you are correct on is the decreased hop utilization. All you do is increase your hop usage.

I even brewed up an IPA that I've done a few times and the beer came out just as good as any of the Full boil editions I did.

To the OP, I've noticed no negatives in my own experiments with this aside from having to use a bit more hops. I doubt anyone could taste the difference side by side of two batches made full boil vs. partial.

TheMan said:

To the OP, I've noticed no negatives in my own experiments with this aside from having to use a bit more hops. I doubt anyone could taste the difference side by side of two batches made full boil vs. partial.

Click to expand...

+1. I've done it a number of times and haven't noticed any issues either. I haven't done one side by side, but I'd also expect a pretty minor difference if there was.

I'm sure many have topped off AG batches while figuring out their efficiency and didn't think twice about it.

I did this method for several years between the time that I started doing AG and when I finally made a rig large enough to do Full boils. Granted I don't do it much anymore, but the only reason is because i now have a larger rig. If the wife hadn't given me the budget for my rig, I'd still be doing it this way.

Like Revvy, I increased my hops to compensate for lower utilization (I used 15% extra). Typically I would top off either 3 or 3.5 gallons to 5.5gals. I made A LOT of beer with this method. Light, dark, and everything in between. Ales and Lagers. I have had other brewers explain to me in great detail how this method can't possible produce a drinkable beer while they are drinking a beer I made with that method. Oh well, "Common Wisdom" I suppose.

....I don't even want to start on the white sugar will make your beer cidery "fact"...

I love HBT . Empiricism FTW!

"All your home brew are belong to us!"

Cool to hear this works. Well for my part I have a cali common I want to brew this winter, I have already done this one in the past so I think I will try doing a "double-batch" by diluting post boil. Will keep you updated to how it came out.

At which point do people typically opt to dilute?
1. Immediately post boil/pre-chill
2. Post chill (take high gravity hydro reading then dilute)
3. Post chill (dilute then take low gravity hydo reading)
4. during fermentation
5. Pre-bottle

I plan on diluting using bottled water (I have no idea what the oxygen content is so I'm probably going to stay away from pre-bottle.

(the zombie thread is hungry for brains!)

BTW: I'm not sure that it matters, but I'm thinking of adding approximately 1 gallon to 6 gallons of post boil beer.

I was leaning toward post-boil add so I wouldn't leave behind high gravity wort with the trub.

I do number 2. Cool it, take a grav reading, and go sit down at beersmith and play with the numbers. Then dillute.

I've posted a detailed description of how I do it here.

When I used this technique, I primarily used number 1. Before I had an IC, I would buy spring water, freeze the unopened gallons solid (careful with this, the ones I bought did not burst though some will) cut the bottle off the ice and use it to dilute and cool at the same time.

Revvy said:

We NEVER said full boil brewing it isn't the best way. NO ONE IS DISPUTING THAT!!!! We're just saying that it CAN BE DONE THIS WAY! And has been done successfully by many brewers, and for me it's even resulted in a couple surprising medal for my beers.

Some people just like to regurgitate what they hear without trying stuff or even looking beyond the rote statement, (Like "Adding sugar to a beer will make it cidery.) They just repeat what they hear. Or they are so convinced that something JUST CAN'T WORK, that they don't bother to try and dissuade others to not try.

The OP asked if post boil dillutions in AG brewing was possible....well guess what? IT IS!

That's ALL I'VE BEEN SAYING.

It may not be the BEST way to do it....I do maybe 80% of my beers full boil, BUT come winter rather than not brew, or being limited to just doing small batch stovetop brewing, or freezing my ass off, I started doing it this way, AND MY BEERS HAVE COME OUT FINE....

No issues with Malliard reactions like some folks swear happen, no issues with hop utilization because those of us who do it bump up the hops, none of those issues that should preclude anyone who for whatever reason wants to try it.

It can be done, and has been done...That's all I said....It's just another valid way of doings.....



oh and you know something, sometimes Jamil and Brad Smith just might be wrong about something as well, or just be regurgitating what they heard, AND NEVER TRIED IT FOR THEMSELVES EITHER... We KNOW John Palmer just regurgitated the autolysis myth in How to Brew, and he's now subsequently back pedalled on it, in light of all the evidence of all those folks leaving their beers in primary...He admitted he just passed on the old chestnut without looking into it. Think maybe it's just possible that Brad or Jamil have just done the same thing? *shrug*

Click to expand...

Wow, I know it is an old post but you say exactly what I am trying to say on a french forum.

I knew the same problem when I searched information on nochill method.

Thanks to you this post could be usefull for a lot of people who dont want buy a bigger stuff to produce more beer.

Scuse my english....