My beer carbs SLOWLY....

I know carbonation can take 3+ weeks. I know the sites to determine priming sugar. I know most kits give you a bag of priming sugar. My question or comment....

I leave my beers at room temperature (65-78) and they take forever to carb. Like 3 months. And that isn't even high ABV beers. This is like lagers, cream ales, and a bock. Is there any trick to get them to carb faster besides kegging? It's really an issue with things like my DIPA that is losing its aroma quickly but not carbing...

Ultrazord said:

And that isn't even high ABV beers.

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Ultrazord said:

It's really an issue with things like my DIPA that is losing its aroma quickly but not carbing...

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ERROR ERROR DIPA IMPLIES HIGH GRAV-I-TEEEEEE

Heh, that was fun. Too much homebrew

But some more info might help:

1) How long are you letting them sit before bottling?

2) Is there a secondary involved?

3) Do you use post-fermentation finings? Cold crash?

4) How are they at the 3-5 week stage? Are they straight up flat or are you making a common mistake of thinking head = carbonation? (No malice intended, just trying to elimate possibilities)

5) What's your favorite animal?

.5) I agree too much home brew! And yeah the DIPA is really high ABV. Ironically they Belgian Cru I brewed carbed up best and is the highest ABV I've ever done.

1) At least 4 weeks, up to 8 weeks

2) Sometimes, but not usually. I secondaried the lager and the cream.

3) No post finings and no cold crash.

4) at the 3-5 week they have SOME carb, but nothing near what they have at 3 months. At 3 months it's the standard bubbly, nice head you'd expect so I imagine I'm using enough priming sugar.

5) Okapi.


Other notes....When I transport them in a cooler with ice packs, the carbonation seems better. Can a transport shaking up some of the CO2 actually help the feel of the beer?

What do you mean by 65-78, that is a big swing. My 7% took at least 6 weeks to consistently carb in temps around 65-67, I ended up waiting around 8 weeks to be sure. Now that its summer, they are basically all carbed after 2 weeks.

Yeah everything else seems normal enough to me.... it might just be your big temp swing that's giving you trouble.

Also.... okapi? Nice. Good choice.

How much head space are you leaving in the bottle? I know that can change the carbonation levels/ time.
Also: What is your process for adding the sugar at bottling time?

And FWIW my favourite animal is the Axolotl

You make the assumption that 1) Something's wrong and 2) That you're in charge of the process, just because the beer isn't ready when YOU think it should be.

Seriously, we all want our beer done NOW...But that is just not the case. Beer takes EXACTLY as long as it needs to carb and condition.

It's a natural, ORGANIC process, the are in charge and they take as long as they need to, to do the job, and not a moment sooner.

Some beers take 6 months to carb, that's really just the way it is.

It's a simple process, if you add sugar, the beer will carb. It's not rocket science. It just takes as long as it needs to.

Getzinator said:

And FWIW my favourite animal is the Axolotl

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In the mid-sixteenth century, Fray Bernardino de Sahagún in his great work General History of the Things of New Spain (The Florentine Codex) describes the importance that the Ambystoma species held for the original inhabitants of the México Valley before the Conquest. Sahagun's work relates the legend of how the Axolotl was originated; according to oral tradition, the god Xolotl, to prevent his death in the sacrifice, transformed himself into a corn plant and hid in the corn field, but was discovered. Again he escaped and became a double stalk of maguey (Agave). He was discovered again, and escaped into the water where the god became an Axolotl. However, the executioner of the sacrifices found and killed him.

dinnerstick said:

In the mid-sixteenth century, Fray Bernardino de Sahagún in his great work General History of the Things of New Spain (The Florentine Codex) describes the importance that the Ambystoma species held for the original inhabitants of the México Valley before the Conquest. Sahagun's work relates the legend of how the Axolotl was originated; according to oral tradition, the god Xolotl, to prevent his death in the sacrifice, transformed himself into a corn plant and hid in the corn field, but was discovered. Again he escaped and became a double stalk of maguey (Agave). He was discovered again, and escaped into the water where the god became an Axolotl. However, the executioner of the sacrifices found and killed him.

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Cool story, bro. Not sarcastic, I didn't know that and it's pretty cool.

Also:

Revvy said:

You make the assumption that 1) Something's wrong and 2) That you're in charge of the process, just because the beer isn't ready when YOU think it should be.

Seriously, we all want our beer done NOW...But that is just not the case. Beer takes EXACTLY as long as it needs to carb and condition.

It's a natural, ORGANIC process, the are in charge and they take as long as they need to, to do the job, and not a moment sooner.

Some beers take 6 months to carb, that's really just the way it is.

It's a simple process, if you add sugar, the beer will carb. It's not rocket science. It just takes as long as it needs to.

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You make it sound like nothing can be done to make the beers carbonate faster. The trappist breweries carbonate in the bottle within ~2 weeks. According to Brew Like a Monk, Westmalle Dubbel carbonates in 2 weeks at 70-73. The tripel takes 3 weeks. Granted, they dose with fresh yeast after centrifuging out most of the dead yeast. So, to the OP, you might consider fining to get most of the yeast out and then dosing with a smaller amount of fresh yeast, especially for your DIPA.

You absolutely can and should control how your beer carbonates and conditions in my opinion. If your beer is taking months to carbonate, something is not right. I think we have all had that situation occasionally, but it is an indication that something is not right. It is not a case of you somehow have lazy yeast.

The two main factors that will control the carbonation and subsequent bottle conditioning are yeast health, and live yeast count.

The health will be dependent on many factors. A few of the major factors in yeast health will be, initial pitch count, oxygen level of the beer available to the yeast at the start of fermentation, pitching temperature, temperature differential between your yeast and the wort at pitching, fermentation temperature, and alcohol content of the beer. I would go through a mental checklist of those items first. If something is typically amis, I would correct that first and see if it helps.

Yeast quantity in solution will also affect the carbonation quality and time. The cake at the bottom of the fermenter has no (significant) affect on the beer. There are yeast alive in suspension for quite a while, and those are the buggers that will be doing most of the work.

It sounds like you leave your beer for a long time int he fermenter. Is this because you just don't get to it? Or are you taking that time intentionally? If so, why? I lager regularly, but I have always kegged those beers after a significant time of aging because the yeast will mostly have gone dormant and dropped out of solution. If I were bottling a beer that had been sitting around aging for 2 months, I would absolutely cold crash, then dose with fresh yeast for bottling.

Yes, unhealthy yeast at low numbers will eventually carbonate your beer, but why would you wan that? In that situation the yeast is in the worst possible situation which rarely leads to a higher quality end product. Instead give your beer a better chance. Yeast flavor effects are minimal at this stage, buy a pack of notty or other dry yeast, and use that at bottling time.

There is no need for any standard beer to take more than 2 weeks to bottle condition. Various beers may improve with aging, but many don't (your DIPA for example). You should be drinking that thing fresh and vibrant at around 2 weeks.

Examine you fermentation schedule for areas where yeast health could be negatively affected, then think about redosing if you are intentionally aging for a long period.

Whoa... sorry for the long post.

Just a question...

I hear people say a lot that sometimes you should add a small dose of fresh yeast and sugar at bottling time if you think there might not be an optimal amount left in the beer.

My question is how much yeast? I assume same amount of bottling sugar for your intended level of carbonation but how much yeast would you add?? 2 grams? 3 grams? Whole pack? (11.5 g)

Page two of this handy guide can help with some good starting points. I think the information is presented better there than I could explain.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/AdvancedBottleConditioning.pdf

To address you current beers, I would not recommend opening them or anything like that. i would just wait out your current batches and try to do better next time.

Thehopguy said:

Just a question...

I hear people say a lot that sometimes you should add a small dose of fresh yeast and sugar at bottling time if you think there might not be an optimal amount left in the beer.

My question is how much yeast? I assume same amount of bottling sugar for your intended level of carbonation but how much yeast would you add?? 2 grams? 3 grams? Whole pack? (11.5 g)

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I think I remember Jamil, on Brew Strong, recommending about 1/4 of a vile (so ~25 billion cells). I could be remembering wrong, though. You might want to email Sierra Nevada and ask them how much they dose their bottle with (they bottle ferment).

You can use champagne yeast to bottle condition. It leaves a cleaner dryer taste. but be careful as adding to much yeast & sugar at bottling can create bottle bombs. On an off note, im almost positive Vinny from Russian River used Champagne yeast exclusively on his bottle conditioned beers before changing to rockpile and a wine yeast blend. It can handle the higher abv that most beer yeasts cant and has a bit more longevity or resilience to temperature fluctuations..

Just a thought to help process of eliminate: How are you cleaning and rinsing your bottles? If a little cleaner or chlorine is left, it could be stressing the yeast and it takes some extra time to do it's thing.

Are you getting a little sediment in your bottles within the first couple weeks? Are they clearing at this point, or not clearing until they have fully carbed?

So, when I make beers meant for quick consumption or ones that have very little yeast sediment (lagers) and want them to carb faster, I give the bottles a shake a day after bottling. It seems to break out enough CO2 to get the yeast going. In a week and a half to two, they're good and bubbly

Colorado_Gold said:

It seems to break out enough CO2 to get the yeast going.

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.....huh?

The yeast don't get activated in the presence of CO2... they make it! Shaking your bottles doesn't absolutely nothing to help carb your beers. All your doing is causing possible oxidation off-flavors (read: cardboard.)

Reno_eNVy said:

.....huh?

The yeast don't get activated in the presence of CO2... they make it! Shaking your bottles doesn't absolutely nothing to help carb your beers. All your doing is causing possible oxidation off-flavors (read: cardboard.)

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I don't know if they act differently in the bottle, but yeast take up all of the available oxygen within about 30 minutes in the ferementer, so I doubt it'd be much of a concern in the bottle. Granted, I'm also doubtful that shaking would help them carb faster.

There’s a big difference between dissolved oxygen in solution and the air in the headspace. Dissolved oxygen when you pitch is ideally 8-10 ppm, according to Chris White. Air is 21% oxygen by volume, orders of magnitude more oxygen than could be in the liquid.

I agree that shaking the bottle is a bad idea. You would knock some CO2 out of solution, making the yeast a bit happier in the short run, but in the long run you’re incorporating air into solution, which will cause oxidation.

I also agree that long secondaries are ill-advised for bottling. Why let the yeast go dormant and then feed them? You risk off flavors from the yeast going back into reproductive phase.

Secondary long enough to clear, then bottle, while your yeast are still happy and healthy.

Wynne-R said:

There’s a big difference between dissolved oxygen in solution and the air in the headspace. Dissolved oxygen when you pitch is ideally 8-10 ppm, according to Chris White. Air is 21% oxygen by volume, orders of magnitude more oxygen than could be in the liquid.

I agree that shaking the bottle is a bad idea. You would knock some CO2 out of solution, making the yeast a bit happier in the short run, but in the long run you’re incorporating air into solution, which will cause oxidation.

I also agree that long secondaries are ill-advised for bottling. Why let the yeast go dormant and then feed them? You risk off flavors from the yeast going back into reproductive phase.

Secondary long enough to clear, then bottle, while your yeast are still happy and healthy.

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This! +1000 to everything you said.

Ok let me clarify, there is CO2 present in the beer from the yeast. When bottled and shaken as stated, the CO2 is released in the small gap between liquid and lid, and like when you rock your carboy, this helps the yeast because there is less CO2 in the liquid to hinder it. Yes the gas doesn't leave the bottle but it does leave the liquid just long enough for the yeast to produce more, hence the faster carbing.

Colorado_Gold said:

Ok let me clarify, there is CO2 present in the beer from the yeast. When bottled and shaken as stated, the CO2 is released in the small gap between liquid and lid,

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Okay... so then where does the outside air in the headspace go? Dissolved into the beer. And then you can possibly have oxidation issues.

Colorado_Gold said:

and like when you rock your carboy, this helps the yeast because there is less CO2 in the liquid to hinder it. Yes the gas doesn't leave the bottle but it does leave the liquid just long enough for the yeast to produce more, hence the faster carbing.

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Okay I see your confusion here now (not meant to sound rude... sorry if it does.) Yeast don't get hindered by CO2 concentration either. They looooooove CO2 environments (ya know, as long as they aren't reproducing.)

Yeast, like most other microorganisms, will do what they can to create an environment that is hazardous to competing microorganisms. They do this by using all of the oxygen for reproduction (this may just be a handy side-benefit but it does discourage aerobic microorganisms) and creating CO2 and alcohol.

CO2 is not a limiting factor for yeast activity. It is simply a bi-product of fermentation that happens to be beneficial.


And rocking the carboy to knock out CO2 is not only ineffective (CO2 is heavy) but unless there is more sugar for the yeast to metabolize they won't create more CO2 to fill back up the headspace. That's why when we bottle condition we add a specific measured amount of sugar and once that sugar is gone the yeast will cease to make CO2, regardless of temp/headspace/concentration of yeast.

The air that's in the bottle is gonna dissolve into the beer regardless, whether you shake it tentionaly or just by moving it from cellar to fridge. once the cap is on, its not going anywhere (unless of course, you purge each bottle with CO2 prior to filling or use o2 absorbing caps)

And shaking the carboy isn't a bad thing as long as the air lock is in place. No o2 can enter since CO2 is being forced out and it resuspends the yeast helping continue fermentation.

Just give the bottle shaking thing a try, I've never had any judge nor BrewHut employee mention any oxidation problems. After you bottle your next batch, just shake one bottle and set it aside to test. And if you have anything negative happen from it, I'll send you a beer to make up for it. What do you have to lose?

lou2row said:

Just a thought to help process of eliminate: How are you cleaning and rinsing your bottles? If a little cleaner or chlorine is left, it could be stressing the yeast and it takes some extra time to do it's thing.

Are you getting a little sediment in your bottles within the first couple weeks? Are they clearing at this point, or not clearing until they have fully carbed?

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Yes, getting some sediment by 1-2 weeks. I clean the bottles by soaking in oxyclean, then thoroughly rinse them. Then I run them through a dish washer with no soap on light wash and steam sanitize setting.

Just a couple of things that come to mind... Once you have the bottles clean, use StarSan to sanitize them. Personally, I don't have a dishwasher and wouldn't trust one [even if I did have one] to sanitize beer bottles before filling them.
Another thing is how long are you chilling the bottle before pouring one? Try going a week and see how it is in the glass. If you've only been chilling overnight, or a few hours, that could be a major part of your 'issue'...
Depending on how close to the ABV tolerance of the yeast your fermenting to (an unknown item at this point), you could just have sluggish yeast that just need more time to get the carbonation job done.

Honestly, there's really only one way to carbonate within a human determined time frame. Many know of which I speak...