70% eff...

So Yesterday i made anouther 10 gal batch of beer.
I have been hitting 60% eff. since day one...Been trying differnt things here and there if i remember but never made a huge effort till yesterday.

I mashed at 150 degrees for 75min. Stired every 15 min. Usally i do a mash for only 60min.

For sparge water it was 160degree's..Had to add 4 gal. Waiting 5min max and drained off.

Boiled for 90min...usally do 60min boil

Chill took 15min...Normal

took OG and nailed it right on the nose for 70%.


My first guess, Is the extra mashing, stiring every 15 min attributes to the higher % of covert rate.

To boil, I know has some effect.. But i usally boil off the same amount no matter if it is a 60 or 90min boil...Reason for the 90 was i needed the extra time for bittering.

Oh and yes my grain is milled perfectly....Couldnt ask for better.


Any idea's?
80% out of reach?

No, 80% is not out of reach at all. Your question will likely reignite the endless debates and dick waving on this subject. IMO, 70% is perfectly OK. The improvement was likely due to a combination of all the changes you mentioned. How finely you mill the malt has the largest influence on efficiency. It is good to know what to expect for efficiency so you can put together a recipe and hit your target OG +/- a few points. The quality of the finished beer is what's important, not saving a buck or two on grain. I would bet that the majority of home brewers are running between 70-80%. I'm about as impressed with high efficiency boasting as I am with low golf scores and big fish stories. I used to have a bachelor friend that liked to brag about how much he was getting laid. You know how that goes. He's usually the one not getting any at all. Don't stress over efficiencies; it's much more productive to focus on making good beer.

An additional 10% effeciency on a 5 gallon beer...

1# grain. For me (bulk), that is about 70 cents.

Way more important to have consistent efficiency, then you can dial in your recipes. Cat, above, pretty much sums up my feelings.

My efficiency hit 80% when I got my Barley Crusher. The difference between my crush and my local homebrew store was drastic.

70-80% is great, and consistency is even better.

It's possible that the high efficiencies that warrant "dick waving" are also detrimental. Extracting (or attempting to extract) every last molecule of sugar from the mash may result in astringency or other flavor issues due to over-sparging.

Look at it this way.

If you are converting 80% of your sugars and getting 90% lauter eff, you will be at about 70% eff. in the process. That is okay.

If you are converting 95% of your sugars, sparge less, and get about 80% lauter eff. you will be creating better quality wort than you are now at 70% and will have about 80% eff in the process. You can actually INCREASE your eff. and BETTER your wort quality. Most people, dont get this... but it is true.

The myth is pretty rampant that lower eff. creates better wort. Hardly a hard and fast rule. Poor conversion eff. will lead you to sparge more and have much lower quality wort therefore.

You need to determine your conversion and lauter eff.

Convert 70% of your sugars and sparge the hell out of it (90% lauter eff) and you will get 63% eff?

Convert 98% of your sugars and sparge much less (70% lauter eff) and you will get 70% eff?


Id rather be the guy getting 70% eff. because my wort will be of higher quality than the guy getting 63% eff.

Get it? People will tell you not to concentrate on eff, concentrate on making good beer. Do you see now that eff. really does play a role in making good beer? You need great conversion eff., that way you can sparge less. Eff. numbers are very important to you as a brewer... if you do now know how eff. your processes are, then you have no idea what you are actually doing in the mash and lauter. Anyone can make oatmeal (water and grain), a brewer knows what is going on in there and makes beer.

My post above is making reference to a recent thread where another brewer was getting about 60% eff. Again, people want to jump on the "eff. isnt something to chase" because that seems to be the cool thing here on HBT when someone brings up eff.

As Kai determined, the poor fellow was only converting 66% of his sugars and sparging the hell out of his grain bed to get 60% eff. His process is horrible for making quality wort and for producing wort eff. There is nothing good in his case about low (even if it is consistent) efficiency.

I think that we should spend more time encouraging people to determine thier conversion and lauter eff. so that they can both produce better wort AND be more efficient while doing so. I dont know why all of these threads about eff. take the turn that they do, but it isnt cool.

The Pol said:

I think that we should spend more time encouraging people to determine thier conversion and lauter eff. so that they can both produce better wort AND be more efficient while doing so. I dont know why all of these threads about eff. take the turn that they do, but it isnt cool.

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It's a fine point you make Pol. I get it. You are right.

However, there is a similar thread to this one at least once a week. I think we (HBT) spend way too much time going over this again and again. mash temp. grist water ratio. pH. grind. batch/fly. It is false to state that these topics haven't been covered adequately, and repeatedly, here before.

All we do on HBT is go over the same things over and over 90% of the time. I mean, that is what we do. There isnt that much NEW material to cover, really.

Mashing avocados to make a mexican IPA hasn't been covered yet.

passedpawn said:

Mashing avocados to make a mexican IPA hasn't been covered yet.

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There is the other 10%

The Pol wrote: The myth is pretty rampant that lower eff. creates better wort. Hardly a hard and fast rule. Poor conversion eff. will lead you to sparge more and have much lower quality wort therefore.

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Please define what is meant by better quality. Real question, not trying to be a smart ass.

rcrabb22 said:

Please define what is meant by better quality.

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Plenty of dissolved sugars in solution, proper pH, few tannins. Over-sparging will increase the sugar content, but it will also raise the pH and possibly result in a wort high in tannins (leading to astringent off flavors).

rcrabb22 said:

Please define what is meant by better quality. Real question, not trying to be a smart ass.

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Fewer tannins, lower pH. The argument is made that oversparging, for the afore mentioned reasons is detrimental to wort quality and beer flavor. It is again argued that those who have high eff. systems are doing more to extract tannins and raise pH since they "oversparge". This is a very simplistic view of the mash and lauter process at best.

First wort is best, the higher your sparge volume, the higher the pH of your runnings and the increased likelihood you will be extracting tannins.

Point being, if you arent looking at your actual conversion and lauter eff. you are shooting in the dark, at best... as to what is going on with your system and you have NO idea whether you are running the risk of extracting tannins and raising the pH of your runnings.

Convert your sugars efficiently, and you will have 80% eff. to the kettle and still avoid oversparging the grain bed to do it.

Or, you can blindly mash and convert 70% of your sugars in the mash, sparge like mad, and get 65% to the kettle.

In the second scenario you not only have low eff., you also oversparged to make up for it. You NEED to know your conversion and lauter eff. You cannot manage the process, if you do not know what is happening in the process itself.

O.k, Well i knew i was going to get some responce to this...but not quiete this much.
As for eff. I am not trying to say hit 90% eff. I have been at 60% for a LONG time and figured it was time to see if i could even get it to raise or drop if i changed a single method.
Yes i know its not much more grain, I realise that...
If it makes good beer, Who cares, I know...Not the point.

Point i am trying to make here is, The only thing i did differnt than normal is let the mash rest for 75 min and stir every 15 min.

To me 10% increase what a HUGE surprise, That is why i posted here because i alone have commented saying be happy with what ya got and go with it.

So alll "dick waving" aside on who is better than who, I was just curious if mashing for 90 min would possible increase the eff. level?
At what point in the mashing time at 155temp, Do you start to extract the tannins from the grain?

Yes i know, Be happy with what ya got...But for the first time i had a 10% increase... Its exsperiment time....but i dont want to exsperiment to the extreme and ruin a good
beer.

As for the grain,
There is not one uncracked kernel in the whole thing..Its a perfect grind.
And yes, I realise that in itself could have boosted the eff. also....But 3 times we have used this grinder and only when i changed the mash time...eff. changed.


Thanks again

Time is probably not the first factor to examine. Here is an article you need to read:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

Length of mash time will not extract tannins. Sparge volume and temp. will though.

You are looking at a conversion eff. issue from the limited information you have posted. By mashing longer, you allowed the enzymes more time to convert the sugars, thus increasing your conversion eff.

I posted this in another thread today, I wll post it here for you to see. Since you are looking at a jump in conversion eff. with this last brew, it is defintately time to calcualte your conversion and lauter eff. so that you know what you are doing when you are mashing.

You can have 70% eff. and have crummy wort, or have 70% eff. and have great quality wort. The difference is in where you are getting your eff. from.

If you convert 100% of your sugars in your mash, this means you only have to sparge out 70% from the grain bed... keeping your pH low and some sugars in the grain (good quality wort)

If you convert 80% of your sugars then you have to sparge out about 90% of those sugars to get 70% eff. This will cause you to sparge more and create HIGHER pH runnings, potentially extract more tannins and create a lower quaity wort.

Here it is in a practical sense:
I am now beginning to mash at 2.5qt/lb. Why? Simple.

You have a pre-boil volume you have to reach, say 7.5 gallons.

If you have a 10lb grain bill:

Mashing at 1.25qt/lb means you have 3.125 gallons in the mash.

Absorption of about 1 gallon leaves you with 2.125 to your kettle.

Leaving you to sparge with 6.375 gallons. That is A LOT of sparging.

NOW IF YOU MASH THIN:

Mashing at 2.5qt/lb means you have 6.25 gallons in the mash.

Absorption of about 1 gallon leaves you with about 5.25 to the kettle.

Leaving you to sparge with 2.25 gallons, that is much more reasonable.

This is why KNOWING your conversion and lauter eff. is so important. If you get your mash regime down so that you have nearly 100% conversion eff. then you can sparge much less. This will create a better quality wort AND you can still achieve 80% eff.

On my last session I had 97% conversion eff. and 91% lauter eff. leaving me with about 88% eff. I DO NOT WANT THIS! I want to lose about 8% eff. so I am mashing thinner and sparging less!

Bottom line, mashing thin will not dry out your beer, but the mash will convert faster and more completely. You will by default be sparging less, which is better for your wort anyhow. Check your mash for complete conversion and when it is done, mashout... it may be done in 30 minutes.

i have been useing a fommula of lbs of grain x 1.5 divide by 4
This is the fomula that i was told to use to know how much water to mash with.

After first runnings add the remaining amount of water needed.

So say i am making a 10 gal bath 22 x 1.5 = 33 / 4 = 8.25 gal of water to mash with

say i only get 6.5 gal off of first runnings. i would then add 4.5gal of h20 to get 11 gal of wort.

Usally 90% of time i nail it within 1/2 gal of disired wort needed.

Like i said earlier, only thing i know i did differnt was mash for 75min stir every 15 min and mash temp was 153 avg thru the 75min mash.

Question tho, U mentioned checking the mash for complete convertion....It may be done in 30 min. How are u finding out if it is fulling converted?

Thanks again for your help Pol

Just thought I'd pitch in here! I tried to up my eff as well about 10 batches ago and had tons of success with two rules. If you batch sparge (dump hot water in the mash tun and re drain all at once) then add 10% total weight to your base grains and MAYBE add a little to your specialty if you're feeling saucy. Although it can adjust the flavor so be careful. Switch to fly sparging. ITS NOT AS HARD AS ADVERTISED. Run an auto syphon out of a second pot of hot water and sprinkle it over the grain bed without disturbing it or swirling it around. MUCH better eff but it does add about 30 minutes to your brew time. Just my thoughts!

nate0075, you may be missing a few of the points in this thread. If you're adding 10% more grain to the mash, you are simply compensating for poorer efficiency than the recipe assumes.

Recommending that another brewer change his sparge method without knowledge of his system may be poor advice. In your case, it seems to have worked. However, not all brew rigs are well suited for fly sparging (particularly large, rectangular coolers and/or systems with short stainless braids). I do agree that fly sparging is not as daunting a task as some seem to think, but that's another discussion for another thread.

Lastly, it is usually ill-advised to put hot water through an autosiphon. Hot water can deform the plastic, rendering it useless.

winstonofbeer said:

i have been useing a fommula of lbs of grain x 1.5 divide by 4
This is the fomula that i was told to use to know how much water to mash with.

After first runnings add the remaining amount of water needed.

So say i am making a 10 gal bath 22 x 1.5 = 33 / 4 = 8.25 gal of water to mash with

say i only get 6.5 gal off of first runnings. i would then add 4.5gal of h20 to get 11 gal of wort.

Usally 90% of time i nail it within 1/2 gal of disired wort needed.

Like i said earlier, only thing i know i did differnt was mash for 75min stir every 15 min and mash temp was 153 avg thru the 75min mash.

Question tho, U mentioned checking the mash for complete convertion....It may be done in 30 min. How are u finding out if it is fulling converted?

Thanks again for your help Pol

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I am sure that you are aware of this, but that formula you are using is just 1.5qt/lb of malt.

Checking for conversion can be done using Kai's easy chart that breaks down your conversion into Plato and SG. It lists the Plato and SG for the mash water (before ANY sparging) based on the mash thickness.

If you want to be more precise you can use Kai's spreadsheet caculator enter the values that is asks for. It will tell you conversion eff. based on the malts that you enter and thier extract potential. It will then tell you what your lauter eff. is based on some information that it asks you to enter about your runnings and your volume in your kettle.

You can also use the iodone test to see when starches are no longer present, but I like the SG method myself. Here is Kaisers chart. You find the mash thickness that you are using, then look at the Plato and SG #s... those represent 100% conversion, anything less will give you the % eff. of your conversion.

winstonofbeer said:

Boiled for 90min...usally do 60min boil . . . To boil, I know has some effect.. But i usally boil off the same amount no matter if it is a 60 or 90min boil . . . Any idea's?

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Everything said here is interesting, but I keep coming back to this. My boil-off rate is constant at a little over a quart for every 15 minutes that I boil. I can't understand getting the same amount of boil-off at 60 and 90 minutes. The extra boil time (1/2+ gallons of wort) could have accounted most of your efficiency gain.

Pol,

So I do 90 min boils, are you saying that it's understood you'll need more preboil volume, and that you should alter you mash thickness to get the majority of your increase from the first wort as opposed to just blindly increasing your sparge? I think what your saying is making sense, and I really hadnt thought about doing a thin mash.

JesseRC said:

Pol,

So I do 90 min boils, are you saying that it's understood you'll need more preboil volume, and that you should alter you mash thickness to get the majority of your increase from the first wort as opposed to just blindly increasing your sparge? I think what your saying is making sense, and I really hadnt thought about doing a thin mash.

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Exactly.

This is why I am doing 2.5qt/lb mashes now on 90 minute boils. This reduces the sparging, which there would be A LOT of if I didnt thin out the mash. Basically you increase the mash wter volume so that you can reduce the sparge volume, you have more LOW pH first wort.

AnOldUR said:

Everything said here is interesting, but I keep coming back to this. My boil-off rate is constant at a little over a quart for every 15 minutes that I boil. I can't understand getting the same amount of boil-off at 60 and 90 minutes. The extra boil time (1/2+ gallons of wort) could have accounted most of your efficiency gain.

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Yah, there is no way you boil off the same amount at 60 and 90 minutes. That is a 50% increase in time, and no more fluid loss? Unless of course, you are boiling off nothing to begin with.

What i was getting at, Is you can control how much you boil off...Hard boil vs just barly a boil.

I dont measure anything less than a 1/2 gal. I allways shoot for 10 gal give er take a few beers. Hard boil allways to start out....If i am getting close to boiling off more than the 10 gal i will turn the boil down....
No not turning off the flame..just not doing such a hard boil.
Thus boiling off less liquid.


Pol, If i understand here right. Your first runnings are allways the best. So if you are looking for 11 gal of wort. taking your 2.5qt/lb this would be a wee shy of 14 gal of h20
If u had a 22lb grain build.

So you would get around 10-12 gal of wort first runnings? Or am i doing the math wrong here?


I think i see where you are getting at here, Add more water to achieve a greater first runnings volume so you dont have to sparge as much.

Are you mashing around 150-155?
By looking at the chart, Are you are taking sg of first runnings i assume?

If so, Dont you have to cool it a wee bit before putting it in the hydromitor?


O.k at 1.5 sg would be 1.080 for 100% convert ratio.

If you took a test at say 1hr and you was only at 1.050, What can you do to raise the #?

winstonofbeer said:

What i was getting at, Is you can control how much you boil off...Hard boil vs just barly a boil.

I dont measure anything less than a 1/2 gal. I allways shoot for 10 gal give er take a few beers. Hard boil allways to start out....If i am getting close to boiling off more than the 10 gal i will turn the boil down....
No not turning off the flame..just not doing such a hard boil.
Thus boiling off less liquid.

I may be totally misunderstanding, I generally do. You ARE measuring much more accurately when you figure eff. right? 1/2 gallon is a lot to be off on volume if you are trying to figure eff.


Pol, If i understand here right. Your first runnings are allways the best. So if you are looking for 11 gal of wort. taking your 2.5qt/lb this would be a wee shy of 14 gal of h20
If u had a 22lb grain build.

Exactly, but I am not saying to use my #s. You obviously cannot just take what someone else is doing and use the exact same #s. You can use the principle though. For a 5 gallon batch I am using 6.25 gallons in the mash, getting out 5.25 gallons and sparging with 2.5 gallons then to reach my pre-boil of 7.75 gallons.

So you would get around 10-12 gal of wort first runnings? Or am i doing the math wrong here?

You are RIGHT, but as stated above, you have to do some work here and make the process apply to your session. If you used 2.0qt/lb youd have 11 gallons in the mash, get out about 9 gallons and sparge with 3 gallons. YOU have to adjust the water to YOUR needs.


I think i see where you are getting at here, Add more water to achieve a greater first runnings volume so you dont have to sparge as much.

YES

Are you mashing around 150-155?

149-158 yes

By looking at the chart, Are you are taking sg of first runnings i assume?

YES, first runnings, but make sure they are mixed well... so you dont have a super concentrated wort from the bottom of the MLT. I just take a sample from the HERMS return line.

If so, Dont you have to cool it a wee bit before putting it in the hydromitor?

I use a refractomter, so I need three drops and no cooling needed.


O.k at 1.5 sg would be 1.080 for 100% convert ratio. Yes, close enough

If you took a test at say 1hr and you was only at 1.050, What can you do to raise the #?

Maybe nothing at that time. There are so many factors that can affect your conversion eff. BEFORE the mash begins, that once you are in the mash portion, there may not be a lot you can do. Basically you want to get these #s so that you can tell if you have great or poor conversion eff. AFTER you get that data you can troubleshoot the mash.

Crush?
Mash pH?
Temp? (thermometers reading correctly)
Mix the mash better?

Like I said, once you are in the mash, not a lot you can do aside from get the #s and mix the mash to see if you can keep the enzymes working. After an hour at 155F if it isnt converted, I doubt it will fully convert. At those temps 30 minutes to 45 minutes should suffice.

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Hope that helps

Well being a poor bastard i havent got a refractometer yet, What temp do i have to cool before using the hydrometer? 100?

As for herms.....Dont have a herms system. Just a keggle.
But i get your idea.


Well, I guess next week or so when i make the next batch i will play around with the mash. Take notes and see if i can nail down a better %

Refractomter is $30...

Hydromter sample should be about 65F to get a decent reading.

This has been a very helpful thread. thanks guys!

O.k Pol,
To make sure i have all the steps correct...
Get a refractometer *when i win lotto or if pay if forward thread swings luck my way *


Since i have been using a 1.5 ratio, On next brew what would be a good start?
Would going a full qt be to much or go in 1/2 a quart ratio?

Note runoff, Then sparge with remaining amount needed..Make note.

Boil for 60 min and note final amount of wort.

Since i dont have a refractometer....Measureing gravity isnt possible really till i am done chilling and fill carboy.

is this going to create a huge problem?

Thanks again for all your help

winstonofbeer said:

O.k Pol,
To make sure i have all the steps correct...
Get a refractometer *when i win lotto or if pay if forward thread swings luck my way *


Since i have been using a 1.5 ratio, On next brew what would be a good start?
Would going a full qt be to much or go in 1/2 a quart ratio?

Id start with going to 2.0qt/lb IMHO this will be plenty.

Note runoff, Then sparge with remaining amount needed..Make note.

Exactly

Boil for 60 min and note final amount of wort.

Exactly

Since i dont have a refractometer....Measureing gravity isnt possible really till i am done chilling and fill carboy.

Since we are trying to determine where your eff. is coming from, I suggest you take a sample of your WELL MIXED first runnings in a sauce pan, cool them, then take the SG. Note this and use Kaisers chart to determine your conv. eff.

is this going to create a huge problem?

No, but Id ALSO take a sample of the kettle wort at PRE BOIL volume and not this as well as the volume. This will tell you your lauter eff. Id take the after boil sample too, to get your OG.

Thanks again for all your help

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Hope this helps! You can dump your first wort sample into the kettle as well as the pre-boil sample... after checking the SG, so you dont waste that wort.

Super, I brew next week * i hope * If paycheck arrives in time i want to do a porter again.

Thats the problem, Buy grain? Buy other toys?

Gotta balance them out or i run out of beer and thats no good!!

Thanks again pol for all your help