Pbw no rinse? Sodium percarbonate and metasilicate

I'm wondering if it is possible to do a no rinse or minimal rinse CIP.

I know pbw is percarbonate and metasilicate and an unknown surfactant. If I were to make pbw at home I would omit the surfactant over concerns about head retention.

This leaves the percarbonate which becomes hydrogen peroxide and soda ash (sodium carbonate). The peroxide is non toxic and from what I've read the soda ash is safe in the concentrations that would be left in the residue.

Oh and the sodium metasilicate also appears to be non toxic-ish but there's less info out there on it.

I would be concerned about the effects of long term exposure. And even if it is safe it may still generate off flavors.

Looking through the old threads it appears that those who did not rinse pbw drank the resultant beer without issue but that is anecdotal and I'd prefer some hard facts from someone who understands chemistry better than I do.

Incidentally, what's in one step? It seems to be a decent no rinse cleaner.

Why dont you just use star san?

StarSan is a sanitizer not a cleaner.

I would think you could use ONE STEP CLEANSER, which is no rinse. I've never used it so I can't say yeah or nay on it.

insurgus said:

Why dont you just use star san?

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samc said:

StarSan is a sanitizer not a cleaner.

I would think you could use ONE STEP CLEANSER, which is no rinse. I've never used it so I can't say yeah or nay on it.

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Yeah I use starsan religiously but I'm looking to clean in place on the new rig. As samc said, starsan is not a cleaning agent.

5 star chemicals has supposedly described PBW as roughly a 70/30 mix of sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate (plus surfactant). The percarbonate provides most of the cleaning action (it and soda ash/washing soda/sodium carbonate are the primary agents in oxyclean). The metasilicate apparently provides some water softening capacity so the solution is effective in hard water (which I have).

Oxyclean free is cheap, yes, but has fillers and probably surfactants and foaming agents which I would rather not have. The percarbonate and metasilicate are cheap also and available locally and I know exactly what's going into the mix. Plus oxyclean often leaves a residue which is supposedly the result of hardwater contact. Using a mix with the metasilicate may resolve or reduce this problem.

I'm looking at MSDS for these and they're not looking too toxic. The dangerousness apparently stems from their strong alkalinity which would be a non-issue in diluted and residual form. I'm wondering if it's really necessary to rinse them.

I have used one-step and it works ok. Definitely not as good as PBW. I would consider making that as well but I haven't got a clue what's in the one-step. Maybe just straight percarbonate?

I make my own PBW, but its a mix of TSP Alternative and Oxycleen. Its works very well, but i do rinse thouroughly. Where do you find the raw ingredients to make PBW? I'd love to not have to rinse, at a minimum less rinsing.

Sodium percarbonate can be had at pool supply stores.

The "tsp" (metasilicate) is at ace hardware as you probably know.

Metasilicate appears to be rated as foodsafe in low concentrations (eg for washing fruit).

I think one step may just be straight sodium percarbonate.

I still don't get it....if you are doing CIP, what is the big deal by following up CIP with RIP (Rinse in place, get it?..yuk yuk)

I'm confused. I picture you using your no rinse pbw to clean out any "gunk", then just dumping it out without having to fully rinse it? How do you get all the residual "gunk" out if it gets left behind? Everytime I clean my equipment I rinse but its because the PBW loosens it all up but I still need to flush it out, otherwise it is just left sitting in there.

broadbill said:

I still don't get it....if you are doing CIP, what is the big deal by following up CIP with RIP (Rinse in place, get it?..yuk yuk)

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Really no big deal. I'm just wondering how well I need to rinse. I've always rinsed and rinsed and rinsed pbw and oxyclean. I'd like to avoid that with this cleaner. I'd like to know it's safe if a bit of it somewhere somehow makes it into the beer.

Lost said:

Really no big deal. I'm just wondering how well I need to rinse. I've always rinsed and rinsed and rinsed pbw and oxyclean. I'd like to avoid that with this cleaner. I'd like to know it's safe if a bit of it somewhere somehow makes it into the beer.

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Ok now i understand. No rinse is more a precaution than an attempt to shorten your process. Got'cha

Lost said:

Sodium percarbonate can be had at pool supply stores.

The "tsp" (metasilicate) is at ace hardware as you probably know.

.

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I thought "TSP" was trisodium phosphate?

Edit: I see, TSP Substitute is sodium metasilicate.

Yeah sorry, it was late. I use PBW for stuff but just rinse well. If there's an easier way, I'd love to hear it...

We need a chemist in here.

I think a minimal rinse would be satisfactory for a mix of percarbonate and metasilicate but am not certain.

Pbw has at least one more ingredient: a surfactant of unknown toxicity.

Okay, I'm just a simple organic chemist and we really need an inorganic chemist, but fools rush in...

To answer your question, let me start by describing what I think is the process you are contemplating - a CIP (of your kettle?) using a mix of percarbonate and metasilicate, followed by minimal rinsing. If this is all you do, the rinse will remove most of the cleaner but still leave some on the surface of the vessel, since alkaline substances are hard to rinse off well. You will be left with some small amount of cleaner on the surface, that will dissolve into the next brew you boil.

I can't guess at the concentrations you'd end up with in the final product from the vessel. but probably pretty low, say parts per million. As an illustration. one gallon of wort is about 3800 grams, and 1 gram in one gallon works out to be 260 parts per million. If you leave a gram of cleaner on the surface, then divide the 260 by the number of gallons of wort in the vessel for an estimate of the final ppm of cleaner in the wort/beer. But, like I say, I don't have a clue how much cleaner is left behind by a minimal rinse.

My advice is avoid all this concern and rinse well, since you can do it by CIP. You are only adding a couple minutes to your process, not enough to worry about. Plus I would be inclined to then do an acid rinse followed by a water rinse, since this will help manage beerstone formation in your kettle.

If you are using this in a vessel you will then sanitize, I'd use Starsan because the acidity will neutralize and remove the residual cleaner.

My 2 cents worth... I've been using PBW in my brewpot and kegs for about a year now (but home brewing for 20 years +); it's great! I've learned a lot more about brewing in the last year since I retired from employment, mostly from you guys on this forum. Thanks! Here's my recent conclusion: I follow the instructions on the PBW for the amount to use. I use the hottest tap water possible, filling the brewpot or keg. I do an overnight soak. I do 2 full keg rinses of hot water. I recently tasted the water coming out of the second rinse with only the taste of clean water. Therefore I determined 2 full rinses to be enough, especially since I then do a Star-San rinse before kegging. The full rinse (filling the keg) kind of is a CIP, no swooshing, just charge with Co2 and let most of it flow out, then dump the rest, thoroughly cleaning the out tube in the process. For the brewpot I do three full rinses to be sure... once again just fill then open the valve (CIP)...