klyph
Well-Known Member
Question:
Is it legal to trade your homebrew for goods/services?
Is there a lawyer in the house?
Is it legal to trade your homebrew for goods/services?
Is there a lawyer in the house?
Legalities of bartering with home brew
- Thread starter klyph
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Edcculus
Well-Known Member
Under normal circumstances, I'd say no. But youre on the last frontier man! Barter away.
***I'm not a lawyer...and don't play one on tv, and I have a half bottle of Russian River Consecration in me now. I wouldn't trust my judgement.
***I'm not a lawyer...and don't play one on tv, and I have a half bottle of Russian River Consecration in me now. I wouldn't trust my judgement.
I'm not a lawyer, so we'll wait for a real one.
But, in my opinion and understanding of the laws in my state (Michigan), that would not be legal. Since homebrew is not legally salable, and only a 6pack per person can legally be given (not sold) per person, that would seem to me to be a "no". You can give somebody a 6pack in Michigan, as far as I know, but that's it.
Joeywhat
Well-Known Member
Does the law actually say 'six pack' or does it include an ounce/liter/whatever value?
If it just says 'six pack' (and knowing MI I would not be surprised if it did) who's to say you can put six kegs in a nice wooden 'carrier' and give that away? Or six 40 ounce bottles?
In either event, what the gooberment don't know won't hurt 'em. That's my unsolicited and uneducated opinion on the matter.
kevinkaseykizer
Well-Known Member
you could barter for a case of "beer bottles" and they just so happen to be filled 
""wink wink nudge nudge"
""wink wink nudge nudge"Joeywhat
Well-Known Member
you could barter for a case of "beer bottles" and they just so happen to be filled
Isn't that how a lot of people sell booze online? They sell the bottles for their 'collector value' and they're still filled because 'they're worth more'?
imaguitargod
Well-Known Member
You should be fine so long as you aren't going to the DMV or some other government agency and trying to pay in homebrew.
The barter system is very much alive and kicking. You are not "selling" you homebrew and there inlies the main crux of the situation.
The barter system is very much alive and kicking. You are not "selling" you homebrew and there inlies the main crux of the situation.
imaguitargod
Well-Known Member
you could barter for a case of "beer bottles" and they just so happen to be filled
That how some people get around not being able to ship beer. They ship bottles of "yeast samples".
Well, I hate to be a naysayer, but the IRS considers bartering to be a form of income: http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
So, if you barter with homebrew and receive a service or goods with value, then you've sold homebrew.
Be careful, and be smart!
I had the original homebrewing statue from the TTB linked in another thread asking the same question, but it appears the TTB has changed their site and the link is no longer good.
But yooper is correct any form of EXCHANGE for homebrew is considered illegal under the 1978 repeal of the ban on homebrewing, H.R. 1337...unless of course you become licensed to do so, and pay taxes.
In fact Bartering of alcohol of any type is illegal, period, even for licensed retailers.
And if you are planning to do so, I wouldn't be discussing it on the largest homebrewing site on the web......
But yooper is correct any form of EXCHANGE for homebrew is considered illegal under the 1978 repeal of the ban on homebrewing, H.R. 1337...unless of course you become licensed to do so, and pay taxes.
In fact Bartering of alcohol of any type is illegal, period, even for licensed retailers.
And if you are planning to do so, I wouldn't be discussing it on the largest homebrewing site on the web......
If it is a friend doing you a favor (cutting some wood for you) he/she can offer their service for free to you. Irrelevant to the previous free service you can offer them some homebrew for tasting purposes.
Is that what happens when you drink the yeast at the bottom of the bottle too many times in one night?
That how some people get around not being able to ship beer. They **** bottles of "yeast samples".
Is that what happens when you drink the yeast at the bottom of the bottle too many times in one night?
llazy_llama
Well-Known Member
What Revvy means to say is that he's actually a BATF agent, and he's planning on confiscating your stash of homebrew. That's how he stays stocked.
What Revvy means to say is that he's actually a BATF agent, and he's planning on confiscating your stash of homebrew. That's how he stays stocked.
Haven't you heard, it isn't the BATF anymore...after 9-11 they don't care about a bunch of monshiners and homebrewers these days...it's all fertilizer bombs and "crotch rockets" now.
The beer/wine/spirits have been handed over to the TTB...The Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau
It's ALL about the taxes now....
THIS is what keeps me in homebrew....all those impressionable new brewers who believe me when I say their homebrew is infected and they need to send it to me for proper disposal.
HIM_Tattoos
Well-Known Member
They **** bottles of "yeast samples".
Whoa, whoa, whoa, sir, no need for swears.
And doesn't that hurt?
llazy_llama
Well-Known Member
Wow, I've really been out of the loop. I try to distance myself from the federal government as much as possible though.
Wow, I've really been out of the loop. I try to distance myself from the federal government as much as possible though.
Yeah things have changed in this new world order.
GearJammer
Well-Known Member
The short answer is "NO" , but I'm with others that be discreet about it and no one will hassle you. I don't know what state you live in, but below I have attached the federal statute that permits homebrewing. All states can permit homebrewing, in accordance with federal law, i.e. the states can be more restrictive, but not less restrictive. This is why some states, like Alabama and Mississippi, don't have homebrewing, even though it is permitted by federal law (...signed in 1978 - Thanks Jimmy Carter!)
What this means is that the federal law prevails in the "removal of beer" section - you can only take your beer off premises to enter it into a homebrew competition (you couldn't even go to a buddy's house with your beer). Even if your state said you could take your homebrew and give it to a friend, federal preemption prohibits states from overriding the federal laws.
GearJammer
________________________________
Statute
United States Code Title 27, Part 25, Subpart L, Section 25.205 and Section 25.206
Beer For Personal or Family Use
§ 25.205 Production.
(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.
(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:
(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.
(c) Partnerships except as provided in §25.207, corporations or associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use.
§ 25.206 Removal of beer.
Beer made under §25.205 may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging. Beer removed under this section may not be sold or offered for sale.
, but I'm with others that be discreet about it and no one will hassle you. I don't know what state you live in, but below I have attached the federal statute that permits homebrewing. All states can permit homebrewing, in accordance with federal law, i.e. the states can be more restrictive, but not less restrictive. This is why some states, like Alabama and Mississippi, don't have homebrewing, even though it is permitted by federal law (...signed in 1978 - Thanks Jimmy Carter!)What this means is that the federal law prevails in the "removal of beer" section - you can only take your beer off premises to enter it into a homebrew competition (you couldn't even go to a buddy's house with your beer). Even if your state said you could take your homebrew and give it to a friend, federal preemption prohibits states from overriding the federal laws.
GearJammer
________________________________
Statute
United States Code Title 27, Part 25, Subpart L, Section 25.205 and Section 25.206
Beer For Personal or Family Use
§ 25.205 Production.
(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.
(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:
(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.
(c) Partnerships except as provided in §25.207, corporations or associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use.
§ 25.206 Removal of beer.
Beer made under §25.205 may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging. Beer removed under this section may not be sold or offered for sale.
OP
OP
klyph
Well-Known Member
So then, what if instead of beer, I wanted to sell a "homemade remedial ointment" or "organic tincture" or something along those lines?
Good idea, but unfortunately, the contents are what matters, not the name on the label.
MultumInParvo
Well-Known Member
I think Yooper and Revvy are right on track.
However, its not really a concern on the government to find out homebrewers who are giving their beer to people. I mean, if you're giving someone cases and cases for a large job, that might be a problem. But if you're friends and you swap some of their skills or effort for some homebrew, no logical person anywhere will arrest you for it.
However, its not really a concern on the government to find out homebrewers who are giving their beer to people. I mean, if you're giving someone cases and cases for a large job, that might be a problem. But if you're friends and you swap some of their skills or effort for some homebrew, no logical person anywhere will arrest you for it.
OP
OP
klyph
Well-Known Member
Problem is, you're assuming law enforcement are logical people.
Yeah this video really proves that, especially where our hobby is concerned. There's a lot of mis-information out there, even from John Law.
As proven by this thread. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/ohio-university-homebrew-festival-shut-down-140105/
That's why talking about one's plans on a website, in the day of supercomputer keyword searching, may not be the smartest thing to do.
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
klyph
Well-Known Member
I have no plans, just curious.
homebrewer_99
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Messages
- 19,581
- Reaction score
- 1,217
- Location
- I-80, Exit 27 (near the Quad Cities)
I've mentioned this before, but a lot of people don't realize that bartered goods are also supposed taxable...
Don't you just love that COPS video...what a misinformed MF he was...
I know I've been "blind druck" on HB, but not REALLY blinded???
Don't you just love that COPS video...what a misinformed MF he was...
I know I've been "blind druck" on HB, but not REALLY blinded???
imaguitargod
Well-Known Member
Is that what happens when you drink the yeast at the bottom of the bottle too many times in one night?
Whoa, whoa, whoa, sir, no need for swears.
And doesn't that hurt?
Remember kids, always proof read your posts.
Sorry, late night at the brewery....been known to cause spelling mistakes.
kmack747
Well-Known Member
Yoop you can gift a lot more than a sixer. I found this on the MI DELEG web site
Houblon
Well-Known Member
Everything is legal till they kickin your doors
steve0416
New Member
The statute quoted above only restricts trading homebew for cash or other liquor. Since it is specific about those 2 items, it strongly implies it would be ok to use homebrew to barter for the services of others. I was going to post an ad on craigslist offering to barter homebrew for some work around the home. I am still hesitant, but I think I will go for it!
Bartering is bartering regardless of whether it's for goods, services or what have you..... The homebrew laws are pretty specific, in that they state we're allowed to brew beer for personal consumption only. Not to be used in lieu of cash, which is what bartering is. It's a method of exchange, and is illegal.
That statute posted above is from MI. Assuming you are located in Arkansas, you might not want to risk your freedom based on a law from another state, ESPECIALLY since BOTH states are part of the UNITED STATES, and the Federal homebrew legislation - which bans ANY bartering no matter how you word it - trumps any state law.
I can put you in contact with an attorney that will tell you that bartering, trading, selling homebrew is illegal.
And this includes getting ingredients for you etc.
Don't DM me if:
1) You want to remain blissfully unaware of the law.
2) You think you are AL Capone. (they got him on the tax thing you know).
3) You want to post like you think you found a loophole.
Or you could just take me word for it.
Also. There is the law and what your state's liquor agents decide. They are not necessarily the same thing. They generally don't err on the liberal side of legal interpretations.
And this includes getting ingredients for you etc.
Don't DM me if:
1) You want to remain blissfully unaware of the law.
2) You think you are AL Capone. (they got him on the tax thing you know).
3) You want to post like you think you found a loophole.
Or you could just take me word for it.
Also. There is the law and what your state's liquor agents decide. They are not necessarily the same thing. They generally don't err on the liberal side of legal interpretations.
And more than likely one of our members will then start a thread about the "idiot" trying to barter with his homebrew. That's one of the fun things we do on here...like this.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/dont-sell-your-home-brew-craigslist-236624/?highlight=craigslist
Give him credit for "least knowledgeable first post" at least.
So happy a guy at work offered to pay for me to brew him a batch of Stout. He and his wife both liked my samples. Now to figure out if I can do this legally somehow...
I wonder if you could do this by brewing at the house of the person who purchased the kit? Then split the results? If both A and B do the work, is it A's because he bought the ingredients? or B's becasue his equipment? or A's and B's?
BTW, as for Yoopers statement of '6pack' gift I think it varries by state. In my state (VA) you can gift 1 gallon/ year (check before you go to court )
BTW, as for Yoopers statement of '6pack' gift I think it varries by state. In my state (VA) you can gift 1 gallon/ year (check before you go to court
)
Mischief_Brewing
Well-Known Member
I've always been of the opinion that "it's only illegal if you get caught"...
The likelihood of you getting caught is really small, unless you do something stupid, like POST ABOUT YOUR ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ON A PUBLIC WEBSITE...
I'm wondering if the 1st forum post bump of this thread was a troll...
The likelihood of you getting caught is really small, unless you do something stupid, like POST ABOUT YOUR ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ON A PUBLIC WEBSITE...
I'm wondering if the 1st forum post bump of this thread was a troll...
Nah, there's GOTTA be a way to brew beer and sell it without paying any taxes, or breaking the law. There just HAS to be! Come on, guys, THINK! How can I make money off of my homebrew??
Nah, there's GOTTA be a way to brew beer and sell it without paying any taxes, or breaking the law. There just HAS to be! Come on, guys, THINK! How can I make money off of my homebrew??
Start instructing people in the art of home brewing. Go to their house with your equipment. Sell them the ingredients, fermenter and bottles, or lease them the fermenter and bottles. Teach them how to brew in their own homes before they invest in the remainder of the equipment. That way you aren't doing the brewing. In some states you might need a business license though.
Chuck, homercidal's making a joke. Hence the wink
Similar threads
