Keggle welding/sugaring question

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Drake9

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So I am not a welder by trade but have taken some classes and been welding for a couple years now. Did some research and found if I wanted to turn some kegs into keggle I needed to back purge. Lincoln TIG185 set to 85 amps (not really going full throttle though) and using 1/16 316 rod.

So I tried the can and second hose method and I am not sure it work very good. So the that is the first one, it is not black so not 100 percent it is surgaring. The second one was black as the tape let lose and I didnt know it and the can was half hanging off.

So I was going to use this for HLT so not sure how critical it is, can I still use it? Also I still need to do my BK and my buddies BK if I can get this squared away. Please let me know what you guys think so I can maybe figure what went wrong so I can try again.

0407132157.jpg


0407132150.jpg
 
I can tell you that looks way better than the inside of mine, but mines worked for many batches with no problems. My welder didn't back gas it at all, so while it looks ugly, it's still welded and liquid tight. If it were a fermenter, and I was worried about sanitary welds, I would think about redoing it, but since it's a boil kettle, it's not going to hurt anything.
 
First off I think you had the welder up really high, I use 1/16 gas lens/ 1/16 2% therated tungstin, and run about 30-45 amps max. (note I don't use a peddle so that changes things). Did you put a hole in the can to let the argon purge the air out? you may have also been adding to much filler. Also what I like to do is pull the wall out intended of but joint the fitting like you would if you were soldering the fitting. Check this forum out :

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=58247
 
Thanks for the responses guys. I will have to check that link out. I was thinking it might have been to much heat and to much filler rod as well. I was going to start using .045 rod and had both laying there and grabbed the 1/6 rod by accident. After I realized it i figure I might as well finish with that. I think on my BK I will turn down the welder some and try the smaller rod and see how it goes.
 
Drake9

What I see is a combination of excess penetration and yes some contamination.

You did not wait long enough for the Argon to push out all the Oxygen, or the flow rate was too high creating too much turbulence inside the can.

The flow rate should be set at about 10 on your flow meter and tape a small ball of stainless steel wool on the end of your purge hose. That will eliminate any turbulence..

For thin walled stainless filler wire is not necessary. You can make a fusion weld if the fit is tight.
 
Fusion is the way to go, its sanitary and so much easier. If you get a pin hole just hit it with some filler. But just remember as Dmfa200 states, you must have a really tight fit. if you dont you will blow through.
 
Thanks for the information, I will keep that in mind next time. The fight was tight and could have probably just did the fusion weld, didnt think about it. I didnt think and the turbulance issue you are talking about, makes sense though.

Now I just need to figure out how I am going to clean those nasty things up. Would be alot easier if I would have made the coupler flush with the inside and not sticking into the inside.
 
You could either take a dremel to it or just cut it out and add a larger fitting?
 
Yeah I guess I could cut it out and weld a bigger fitting in, probably just try to clean it up first. In my mind it is not a big deal as it is the HLT and will only have water in it and that water will get boiled anyway. Thoughts on that?
 
Its not like you are introducing any sugars, so it will not be a problem at all. I wouldn't worry about it at the moment, if it bugs you later you can change it out.
 
Also are you guys pulsing at all?

I also would do a small run then stop, go to opposite side a repeat. Is that the preferd method on something like this? Just trying to keep warpage down. I didnt have any issues with that though.
 
No need to pulse.
I've stated this before but I'll say it again.
The general rule is one amp for every thousandths of thickness. Your keg is about .050" thick so 50 amps would be the starting point. On thin walled material your better off starting at a lower amperage than higher. You can always go back over a weld a little hotter.
In my experience 40 to 45 amps is what I use.
 
First off I think you had the welder up really high, I use 1/16 gas lens/ 1/16 2% therated tungstin, and run about 30-45 amps max. (note I don't use a peddle so that changes things). Did you put a hole in the can to let the argon purge the air out? you may have also been adding to much filler. Also what I like to do is pull the wall out intended of but joint the fitting like you would if you were soldering the fitting. Check this forum out :

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=58247

You are better off letting the Oxygen purge the can thru the opening on the fitting you are welding in.
Make a small ball of steel wool and stuff it in the open end of the fitting you are welding in.
Hope that makes sense.

I'm not not trying to sound like I'm a know it all, but I have been welding stainless for 15 plus years to ASME B31.1 and B31.3 code.
Also API 1104 and AWS D.1
What I'm telling you is common in this trade.

The main difference in food and dairy from other standards is that welds made cannot be difficult to clean in a CIP system.

The welds made in food and dairy will have very little to no penetration and be very consistent on the root of the weld.
Food and dairy welders are very good at controlling the amount of penetration in their welds.
They cannot hinder a CIP system from being easily cleaned.
 
...The welds made in food and dairy will have very little to no penetration and be very consistent on the root of the weld.
Food and dairy welders are very good at controlling the amount of penetration in their welds.
They cannot hinder a CIP system from being easily cleaned.

Sorry bit confused with that comment, I thought for a weld for CIP use you would want full penetration (but not overdoing it). Don't you want the back side of the weld to melt and fuse together but not deposit a large "cap" of wled material that would be an issue to clean. In other words, you do not want the backside cut joint to be visiable, i.e. still look like two pieces butted up against each other, right?
Or am I misunderstanding what you meant - rereading I am thinking you are say - Full penetration but no convex protrusion on the back side of the weld?
 
No need to pulse.
I've stated this before but I'll say it again.
The general rule is one amp for every thousandths of thickness. Your keg is about .050" thick so 50 amps would be the starting point. On thin walled material your better off starting at a lower amperage than higher. You can always go back over a weld a little hotter.
In my experience 40 to 45 amps is what I use.

I had never seen that, good to know. I was just going off my guide and was on the high side. Never thought about it being better to be low and go back over if need be. Makes perfect sense. I am still pretty new to welding as I have only been doing it a couple years. Always good to learn new stuff. I will be trying again on my BK in the next few days and will post pictures of hopefully better looking welds.
 
matt, I think that is what he means, but I am still a novice welder that has some bad days welding (today just turned into a mess). The outside weld is supposed to look like the inside weld when back gassed. But I still prefer to weld from the inside (my back is killing me welding the bottom of a 25 gal mega.lol
 
You are better off letting the Oxygen purge the can thru the opening on the fitting you are welding in.
Make a small ball of steel wool and stuff it in the open end of the fitting you are welding in.
Hope that makes sense.

I'm not not trying to sound like I'm a know it all, but I have been welding stainless for 15 plus years to ASME B31.1 and B31.3 code.
Also API 1104 and AWS D.1
What I'm telling you is common in this trade.

So here you are saying to put a small wad of steel wool into the fitting then the argon hose into the outside of the fitting blowing in and have the oxygen then argon go out the can on the inside of the keg?

I dont think you sound like a know it all, just someone that is experienced helping someone that doesnt know to learn and for that I say thank you.

Jake
 
Drake9 - sorry for the off topic but - Did you go straight to TIG or have you had experience with Arc/MIG? How did you find the leraning curve? Asking as I would like to get a entry level TIG set and learn, have minimal experience with arc / no MIG, and wanted to see how hard it was to pick up.
I am probably going to need to sell my current AG setup to fund the purchase of welder and equipment for the new AG setup though :(
 
matt, I think that is what he means, but I am still a novice welder that has some bad days welding (today just turned into a mess). The outside weld is supposed to look like the inside weld when back gassed. But I still prefer to weld from the inside (my back is killing me welding the bottom of a 25 gal mega.lol

Wow that would suck :D
Yeah I have not even touched a TIG set (yet) but work in the FB indusrty as a project engineer/manager and have seen some very good work (and some shockers!). Best one was a test piece welding 2 pipes together, then it was cut in half, the thing looked like it had been welded both sides!
 
Its not that bad, but you are basically welding blind on the bottom because the torch blocks your line of sight. needless to say I got 2 tanks done, but it took way to many times grinding then re-welding.
 
Drake9 - sorry for the off topic but - Did you go straight to TIG or have you had experience with Arc/MIG? How did you find the leraning curve? Asking as I would like to get a entry level TIG set and learn, have minimal experience with arc / no MIG, and wanted to see how hard it was to pick up.
I am probably going to need to sell my current AG setup to fund the purchase of welder and equipment for the new AG setup though :(

No worries Matt. My TIG is the only welder (other then Oxy/Ace setup) that I own. I got into welding as I love to do stuff myself and bought an old Ironhead to turn into a chopper. I know I was going to need some welding done so I thought I might as well learn as knowledge never carries heavy.

I looked into classes at the local community college and they offered a welding cert program. So I went down that path. I took a MIG class first as that what fit into my schedule. Then it was onto Oxygen/ Acetylene (Oxy/Ace). After that it was TIG and then Stick. Then I took a "Auto Body Welding" class that was a lot of MIG but the instructor was the same guy I had for Oxy/Ace and probably the best instructor I have had.

I would recommend looking into your local community college and see if they offer any classes. If so I would start there. Might cost you a couple hundred dollars for the class but that is money well spent in my opinion. MIG and Stick are pretty easy to pick up and become efficient (notice I didn't say master). The learning curve for TIG was a little tough but I was in a class and I had already learned oxy/ace (remember I said by the best instructor I had) and that made a huge difference. The hardest part for me about TIG and oxy/Ace was getting the coordination down. I am by no means a master, I can weld and put out decent looking welds that more important shouldn't fail.

I feel your pain on the price of a welder, they are not cheap and as an E-5 in the Air Force I dont have a lot of spare cash. I picked mine up off CL for a good price. I would say buy the best/biggest machine you can afford. Save up some dough and watch CL like a hawk. Lincoln and Miller are both great and I have heard good things about the Eastwood units. I tend to buy the best tools I can as you wont be disappointed and I hate buying things twice.

I know that was probably a lot more then you were looking for, sorry just got going. If you have any more questions feel free to ask or PM me and we can talk more. I am just one source of information and lots of others out there with a lot more knowledge then me but I dont mind giving my opinion when asked.

Good luck and cheers

Jake
 
Sorry bit confused with that comment, I thought for a weld for CIP use you would want full penetration (but not overdoing it). Don't you want the back side of the weld to melt and fuse together but not deposit a large "cap" of wled material that would be an issue to clean. In other words, you do not want the backside cut joint to be visiable, i.e. still look like two pieces butted up against each other, right?
Or am I misunderstanding what you meant - rereading I am thinking you are say - Full penetration but no convex protrusion on the back side of the weld?

Your statement is about full penetration is correct.

"Lack of penetration" is what you get when you fail to fully fuse the edges of the pipe on the inside of the joint.

By "penetration" I mean root weld reinforcement.
Root weld reinforcement is the proper term for penetration on the inside.

Welders just say penetration. Sorry to confuse you.

When you have penetration in your root it will should look as though you put a weld bead on the inside of the pipe.
I forget sometimes that I'm using trade lingo.
The weld when complete should fully fuse both sides of the joint but not protrude excessively inside.
In petro and chemical piping some penetration is preferred. In food and pharm they like to see a root that is flush and not stick up above the inside walls of the tube or pipe.
 
So here you are saying to put a small wad of steel wool into the fitting then the argon hose into the outside of the fitting blowing in and have the oxygen then argon go out the can on the inside of the keg?

I dont think you sound like a know it all, just someone that is experienced helping someone that doesnt know to learn and for that I say thank you.

Jake


No, what I am saying is roll a ball of steel wool and stick in the open end of the fitting your welding to your keg on the outside of the keg instead of leaving the outlet of the fitting wide open for drafts of air to blow in and contaminate the Argon shielding.
The Argon should fill the can pushing the air out of the fitting your welding in.
The steel wool will also reduce the risk of your Argon from shooting straight through the can and out of the fitting.

The set-up you pictured with the hose going into the can inside the keg is right.
Make sure you seal the hose where it enters the can and where the can is taped to the keg wall very well.
Small cracks where your tape isn't sealing can suck in air contaminating the Argon.
 
Your statement is about full penetration is correct.

"Lack of penetration" is what you get when you fail to fully fuse the edges of the pipe on the inside of the joint.

By "penetration" I mean root weld reinforcement.
Root weld reinforcement is the proper term for penetration on the inside.

Welders just say penetration. Sorry to confuse you.

When you have penetration in your root it will should look as though you put a weld bead on the inside of the pipe.
I forget sometimes that I'm using trade lingo.
The weld when complete should fully fuse both sides of the joint but not protrude excessively inside.
In petro and chemical piping some penetration is preferred. In food and pharm they like to see a root that is flush and not stick up above the inside walls of the tube or pipe.
Thanks dmfa, I think it is more because of my professional engineering background being to particular about symantics :D It is really good to have resources like yourself on here with the practical knowledge to help us out. Thanks!
...The set-up you pictured with the hose going into the can inside the keg is right.
Make sure you seal the hose where it enters the can and where the can is taped to the keg wall very well.
Small cracks where your tape isn't sealing can suck in air contaminating the Argon.

What tape are you using? Looks like duct tape/electrical tape. I have seen some alluminium foil HVAC tape that seems to hold up much better.
aluminum_foil_tape.jpg
 
Thanks dmfa, I think it is more because of my professional engineering background being to particular about symantics :D It is really good to have resources like yourself on here with the practical knowledge to help us out. Thanks!


What tape are you using? Looks like duct tape/electrical tape. I have seen some alluminium foil HVAC tape that seems to hold up much better.
aluminum_foil_tape.jpg

Plain old masking tape is what is commonly used.
We kept rolls of it along with our tools and consumables with us.
Don't be shy and tape well off the can onto the keg. Just put down overlapping layers until you get well away from the heat from welding
The heat from welding can soften the glue and the can will come loose and you will lose shielding.
Any glue that comes off onto the keg can easily be removed with Acetone.
Wait until the weld area is cool. the glue comes off easier.

On small welds the prep work to make the weld takes more time than the actual weld takes.

Unless you are a production welder, most welders that do work of this nature spend a small percentage of the time actually welding.
The majority of the work is in set-up and prep.
 
No, what I am saying is roll a ball of steel wool and stick in the open end of the fitting your welding to your keg on the outside of the keg instead of leaving the outlet of the fitting wide open for drafts of air to blow in and contaminate the Argon shielding.
The Argon should fill the can pushing the air out of the fitting your welding in.
The steel wool will also reduce the risk of your Argon from shooting straight through the can and out of the fitting.

The set-up you pictured with the hose going into the can inside the keg is right.
Make sure you seal the hose where it enters the can and where the can is taped to the keg wall very well.
Small cracks where your tape isn't sealing can suck in air contaminating the Argon.

Okay, that makes more sense to me. I need to tape a lot better too I think. I ordered some more fittings and picked up the stuff to build the keg tool. Think I am going to send this Keg down the road and pick up another one and try again. Still got one more to do too.

Thanks again for all the words of wisdom and help.

Jake
 
Also I picked up the stuff for the $4.87 keg tool thinking I could dimple the keg out like the picture below (stolen from the other thread) then run the bead right around the edge of the keg wall. So it would kinda be like a lap weld. Do you think that would work or should I dimple in and weld in the gap or dont even dimple? Thanks again for answering all my questions.

image-4135791592.jpg
 
I think you should do what you are comfortable with. The method that you use to weld the fitting in is not critical. The goal is just to make a clean sound weld.
If these were fermenters I would use TC fittings and use this technique.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/pulling-hole-tri-clamp-fitting-277656/

Flaring the hole allows you access to the root of the weld(to grind and blend the weld)in a situation where it would otherwise be impossible in the case of a keg or vessel with no openings.
 
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