how long should I expect primary ferment to take for a 1.060 bock @ 44 F?

I will of course check with a hydrometer when I think I'm close, but this is my first lager and I have no idea what to expect.

I made a 2L starter which was decanted before pitching yeast. Both yeast and wort were at 44 F prior to pitching. I plan on increasing fridge temp to 50 F over the next week.

I wouldn't think it'd be more then a weekish when ferm slowed down (if it got a good start). Don't forget a bock will have a bit more residual sugar and may not ferment as low as an ale so watch it when it gets close!

it could take up to two weeks even if you had pitched enough yeast (500 billion cells). I've done a few bocks. They take a lot of yeast. the narziss fermentation schedule that you are following really hinges on sufficient yeast count. The old school homebrew lager fermentation schedule is to pitch warmer... in the 60s... and then gradually ramp down the temp. the higher initial temp helps to encourage growth to compensate for the insufficient pitching rate. later on towards the end of fermentation you'd need to raise the temp again to compensate for the diacetyl that you produced during the warm growth period.

I think doing a bock via starters is impractical. I think the more reasonable thing to do is really just make a low OG lager of some kind and repitch your bock wort onto that after it's done. high OG lagers just take ridiculous amounts of yeast. last time I seriously was stepping up my yeast in a carboy with 2 gallons of starter wort and it just seemed like an awful waste of DME.

OK, I'll be patient - hopefully my puny starter will be enough. There is a good krausen on top today. I used extract so it should be very fermentable

Ya higher gravity lager starters are a small beer really....big pain. It only makes since on a larger scale. It is fun to do it sometimes though like the BIG DOGS. The diacetyl rest is kind of a pain too, it makes me feel like I'm correcting a problem I could have avoided. however it keeps us from doing a several gal starter... just comes down to how you want to make your lagers and maybe how often you brew them. I suppose if you pitched one warm then you could wash the yeast and pitch the 2nd one cold and so on. I believe lager yeast mutates pretty fast though so maybe someone can chime in. I'm thinking you may only want to repitch lager yeast for 3ish generations. I would suggest rinsing your yeast though because you might get some flavor from the trub in your next batch!

i would say you should expect it to be done sometime after your hydrometer readings show a stable FG for a few days. the thing with beer is it's fermented with these li'l single celled organisms that work on their own timeframe. so it's not really logical to 'expect' anything from them. sure, there's some general timeframes that we go by, but in reality the beer will be done when the yeast is finished converting sugar to alcohol.

What yeast strain did you use? I'm impressed that you have a good krausen given the temperature and amount of yeast you pitched.

osagedr said:

What yeast strain did you use? I'm impressed that you have a good krausen given the temperature and amount of yeast you pitched.

Click to expand...

I started with a fresh pouch of Wyeast 2308 - Munich Lager

twd000 said:

I started with a fresh pouch of Wyeast 2308 - Munich Lager

Click to expand...

Thanks--good to know.

osagedr said:

What yeast strain did you use? I'm impressed that you have a good krausen given the temperature and amount of yeast you pitched.

Click to expand...

Is it considered a krausen since the yeast is fermenting on the bottom not the top?

FarmBoy530 said:

Is it considered a krausen since the yeast is fermenting on the bottom not the top?

Click to expand...

I think so. I don't know what else you'd call it.

twd000 said:

I started with a fresh pouch of Wyeast 2308 - Munich Lager

Click to expand...

according to MrMalty, with one pack of yeast, you'd need a 4.39 L starter. using 2 packs, a 1.79 L starter. either way the cell count should be 417 bil, which would've been hard to get with 1 pack in 2 L.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

according to MrMalty, with one pack of yeast, you'd need a 4.39 L starter. using 2 packs, a 1.79 L starter. either way the cell count should be 417 bil, which would've been hard to get with 1 pack in 2 L.

Click to expand...

yeah, there was no way I was using enough DME to make a 4 L starter, so I'll takes my chances!

Well, it's now 3 weeks after pitching, it's sitting at 1.030 (consecutive readings 4 days apart). It takes OK, but still too much residual sugars. The carboy is at 50 F right now. Is there anything I can do to finish this fermentation (would like to get down another 10+ s.g. points) or should I just go ahead and rack to secondary and crash cool to 35 F?

Underpitching sux. You could warm it up to 65 and gently rouse the yeast. You're close enough to do a d-rest anyway. Warming it up is unlikely to take you all the way down to where you want to be, but it might get you close enough that you don't have to repitch.

osagedr said:

Underpitching sux. You could warm it up to 65 and gently rouse the yeast. You're close enough to do a d-rest anyway. Warming it up is unlikely to take you all the way down to where you want to be, but it might get you close enough that you don't have to repitch.

Click to expand...

Well all the yeast has already dropped out of suspension. You think increasing the temp and swirling the carboy would really be enough to wake them up?

I've heard of people pitching dry champagne yeast into a stuck fermentation - does that really work?

NordeastBrewer77 said:

according to MrMalty, with one pack of yeast, you'd need a 4.39 L starter. using 2 packs, a 1.79 L starter. either way the cell count should be 417 bil, which would've been hard to get with 1 pack in 2 L.

Click to expand...

twd000 said:

yeah, there was no way I was using enough DME to make a 4 L starter, so I'll takes my chances!

Click to expand...

twd000 said:

Well, it's now 3 weeks after pitching, it's sitting at 1.030 (consecutive readings 4 days apart). It takes OK, but still too much residual sugars. The carboy is at 50 F right now. Is there anything I can do to finish this fermentation (would like to get down another 10+ s.g. points) or should I just go ahead and rack to secondary and crash cool to 35 F?

Click to expand...

well, maybe you could try warming and rousing the yeast. that may get you down a few more points. repitching is also an option, seeing as your issue undoubtedly came about due to under pitching. repitching may get you closer to your target FG. next time, instead of hoping the yeast does the trick when you under pitch, remember, an appropriate sized starter of viable yeast is always your best option. taking your chances, and then having to correct issues later isn't the best route to go.

twd000 said:

Well all the yeast has already dropped out of suspension. You think increasing the temp and swirling the carboy would really be enough to wake them up?

I've heard of people pitching dry champagne yeast into a stuck fermentation - does that really work?

Click to expand...

I've read tons of threads about stuck fermentations and reflected a lot on what advice to give. I remember back when I was doing extracts a couple of things got stuck around 1.020. I bought some amylase enzyme or whatever it's called, but never used it. Now if people get stuck at 1.020 I generally tell them the cure is often worse than the disease--just leave it (provided the beer was 1.050-ish (at least) to start with.

I had a 1.060 bock finish at 1.018 and a 1.085 doppelbock finish at 1.026; neither got quite as low as I'd hoped but I think both are really good beers. 1.030 on a 1.060 beer is a different ball of wax. The series of steps to go through is up to you--warming it up, which you should do anyway for a d-rest and rousing the yeast might get you a few points. After that repitching might be best, either the same yeast in larger quantities (and still at the higher temp), or a champagne yeast like you are thinking. After that you might consider the "nuclear option" of amylase enzyme. At some point you are f**king around so much with the beer that you might get the FG down into the range you hoped, but be left with 5 gallons of terrible beer.

I hope it works out. Bocks are tricky, and pitching rate is important, which is a difficult but valuable lesson to learn. I'm reading Darryl Richman's beer on Bocks right now--really interesting; pick it up from Amazon if you are interested in this style. I also enjoyed the Bock chapter in Designing Great Beers.