Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

cidah - there's got to be some good info on how to kill off the wine yeast because it's commonly done for sweetening up wines before bottling. now i just have to take the initiative to find it

Powers said:

cidah - there's got to be some good info on how to kill off the wine yeast because it's commonly done for sweetening up wines before bottling. now i just have to take the initiative to find it

Click to expand...

True, but you typically age the wines or ciders a minimum of 3-4months plus. If done at a lower temperature 45-55F for 4 months, that should wipe out all the active yeast. Then you sorbate, then you sweeten.

If you do come across a silver bullet let me know, I have done a lot of reading and short of chemical additions, found nadda.

Yooper is a moderator here, and I trust her judgement, and she has posted the following advice on stopping wine yeast from working after bottling:

"If you're sweetening the cider, you'll wait until it's done, then rack into campden and sorbate, wait a couple of days and sweeten to taste. Wait a couple of days, and then you can bottle in wine bottles if you wish. (You wait to ensure fermentation doesn't restart before bottling). But like I said, if you're not adding sweeteners, and the FG of the cider is stable, you can just bottle."

First of all I think the point being discussed is moot anyhow. If you are going to add them into each other and one has additions of k-meta and sorbate, you are suppressing both strains. I say mix them both without any additions, let them ferment out to whatever dryness, then back sweeten and carb with CO2. If you are looking to halt fermentation, mix up enough k-meta for 30-50 ppm and sorbate for the whole batch. When it comes to carbonation you will have to use CO2.

My point is that you can't halt the fermentation of the cider one, then mix it with the beer one and expect to carb naturally in bottles. The additions will affect both. You need CO2.

I agree with all that yooper said with the caveats I previously stated. If FG is near 1.000 then you are good. However the minute you add sugar back in, you are adding food and creating a chance for fermentation (i.e. increasing the gravity).

Potassium Metabisulphite suppresses most wild yeast strains but only slows commercial yeasts, it does not kill them unless you sulphite the snot out of them. Sorbate doesn't kill yeast, it suppresses reproduction (if you have a good supply in there they will have at your new sugar addition).

I was just letting you know the risks.

As with many things there are no guarantees, so have at it. I was giving you the back story so you could make the call.

good luck!

has anybody tried this with base malt like say, Maris Otter? And some c-80. I don't have any extract on hand, but I have 10 pounds of MO and 1.5 lbs of c80 layin around that I'd like to use up. Anybody think this is a decent idea, or am I setting up for another disappointment?

I just bottled my second batch of this delicious brew. I used cider from a local orchard, went all-grain this time, and used up some leftover hops:


sample tasted great - tart, and somewhat "champagney". I found that my first batch was prefect after about 2-3 weeks in bottle.

platypotamus said:

I just bottled my second batch of this delicious brew. I used cider from a local orchard, went all-grain this time, and used up some leftover hops:

5gal fresh local cider
5lb Maris Otter
4oz Crystal 60
4oz Crystal 120
2oz wheat

.6oz Willamette @ 30min
.1oz EKG @30min
.2oz EKG @ 5min

OG = 1.065
FG = 1.004
ABV = 8%
​

sample tasted great - tart, and somewhat "champagney". I found that my first batch was prefect after about 2-3 weeks in bottle.

Click to expand...

Did you make the batch previously with a store bought apple juice/cider (I used crystal 60-70L with musslemans apple cider)? I am wondering how different the flavor profile is with fresh cider vs. apple juice. My assumption is that is is much better, but I didn't want to dedicate 4 gallons of my fresh pressed cider to it until I tried the recipe once.

My first batch is almost 3 weeks old from start. Going to carb it for 2-3 weeks and try it then. Looking forward to giving it a go soon!

CidahMastah said:

As with many things there are no guarantees, so have at it. I was giving you the back story so you could make the call.
good luck!

Click to expand...

your advice is well taken, i hadn't thought of the sorbate killing off the ale yeast for bottle priming. and my keg will not be the final destination for this cider, so force carb is not an option. i think i'll cold crash the cider and wine yeast for a few days, then blend the two. if the wine yeast rejuvinates, oh well. it's all in the good spirit of experimentation thanks cidah!

No problem powers. I agree - cold crash, mix it and let the yeast decide

Either way you won't likely make this recipe the same way again, but I bet you will end up drinking it no matter how it turns out

yeah, this was a little backwards and i will definitely do the recipe with all ale yeast next time. in the meantime, this frigid weather has my beer fermenting at close to 60 degrees under the stairs in the basement with nottingham ale yeast...thankfully i used a strain resilient to cold temps!

CidahMastah said:

Did you make the batch previously with a store bought apple juice/cider (I used crystal 60-70L with musslemans apple cider)? I am wondering how different the flavor profile is with fresh cider vs. apple juice. My assumption is that is is much better, but I didn't want to dedicate 4 gallons of my fresh pressed cider to it until I tried the recipe once.

My first batch is almost 3 weeks old from start. Going to carb it for 2-3 weeks and try it then. Looking forward to giving it a go soon!

Click to expand...

yes, my first batch followed the original recipe in this thread pretty closely, and I used cheapo apple juice from a megastore. turned out great, lots of compliments on it so far. from the sample I took before bottling, this second one does seem to be a bit more "robust" flavor-wise, and it is definitely a few shades darker. I'll let you know when I crack the first bottle in a few weeks.

Awesome - please do! I have ~15 gallons of cider left in my freezer. The stuff is like er... "brown gold"? haha

I imagine that the aroma should be vastly improved, and overall flavor may have more body as well. Here is to hoping

Powers said:

yeah, this was a little backwards and i will definitely do the recipe with all ale yeast next time. in the meantime, this frigid weather has my beer fermenting at close to 60 degrees under the stairs in the basement with nottingham ale yeast...thankfully i used a strain resilient to cold temps!

Click to expand...

Be sure to let us know how it turns out.

Actually, I might try to do something similar to this if you have good results. I have a ton of cider that should be fermented dry soon. Would be cool if I could use the cider with this recipe and have a good turn out, I bet I could. If I used the aged dry cider at 3-4 months, and then add in the beer components, that would be a tremendous way to get another use out of my cider cache (not to mention a great way to use any lack luster ciders). I am thinking you would just want to bulk condition a bit longer.

Even if I only ever liked cider, the waiting would have made a beer drinker out of me. Luckily, I am an equal opportunity drinker.

I followed the original recipe first - 2 weeks in primary, store bought apple juice.

Next time I made it with fresh pressed cidar and went 4 weeks in primary.

Smelled much better when kegging it and was clear as a bell. Can't wait till its done carbing to taste it. Alot more expensive to make tho. The fresh pressed cidar was $6 a gallon. More than twice what cheapo apple juice from the store is.

I have just spent 3 hours !!! reading every post in this thread, and have decided that on Christmas afternoon I am gonna brew up a batch of this and pitch onto a cake of S-04 that I will be racking off of on that day..... if I can wait that long.

God bless you Hannable - I did the same.... I should have just resolved to try it after the first page ha!

Three posts in a row....of HBTers who've read the entire thread.

ChshreCat said:

Am I crazy, a genius or a crazy genius...

I got to thinking about graff and graff-like beverages and thought a great way to make it would be to make a batch of beer, and when you rack out of the primary, just leave a gallon or so behind with the yeast cake, and then top the fermenter up with apple juice or cider!

You could make a APA based graff and a stout based graff or whatever, depending on what type of beer you used as the base.

Waddya think?

Click to expand...

Brandon O said:

I'm doing this, that is a great idea. Amarillo pale ale with a gallon left behind then top off with AJ. Genius.

Click to expand...

beeton said:

I brewed a 6 gal. batch of Double Oatmeal Stout.
After racking from the fermenter to a keg there was 1 gal.
remaining on the yeast cake. I vigorously poured 4 gal of apple juice
into fermenter and left 3 weeks.
OG 1.044 FG 1.010
Yummy.

Click to expand...

Did Chshre or Brandon actually do this and how did yours turn out Beeton?

oparea said:

No But I do have 1 bottle I'm gonna age for a year.

Click to expand...

How was it after a year?

Also there were a few guys that mentioned Honey malt? What's the verdict? Did it provide the balance for the tart? Thanks.

I haven't had a chance to try it out, no.

I just bottled a small batch of Graff I made about a month ago and it tastes AMAZING. I really couldn't believe how good it tastes and I can only hope it gets even better after a few weeks. I did do a few changes to the recipe though; I used some second runnings from a Dubbel I brewed and steeped a mulled cider tea bag in lieu of hops. I also fermented it with WY1469 west yorkshire.

I did a quick search and didn't really find anyone saying that they've added sugars to this. I know in the OP he says that he made this to get away from the crappy sugar stuff, but I'm thinking about adding 2 lbs of piloncillo http://www.saucenspice.com/product_images/k/363/Goya-Piloncillo__27815_zoom.jpg to add a caramel touch with a good bit of added abv.

Thoughts?

I just tried my graff last night and sadly, I am not loving it. Still tastes like a young harsh cider, not getting the maltiness and hops to show through very well. Not a lot of flavor to it. I am only on week 4 so I am hoping that week 5 is magical, otherwise in the keg it will stay and I will keep trying weekly, or I will get out some fresh cider and doctor the flavor

HalfPint said:

I did a quick search and didn't really find anyone saying that they've added sugars to this. I know in the OP he says that he made this to get away from the crappy sugar stuff, but I'm thinking about adding 2 lbs of piloncillo http://www.saucenspice.com/product_images/k/363/Goya-Piloncillo__27815_zoom.jpg to add a caramel touch with a good bit of added abv.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I thought about doing a batch with some lactose. Has anyone tried that?

Cheers

jamesjensen1068 said:

I thought about doing a batch with some lactose. Has anyone tried that?

Cheers

Click to expand...

I haven't toyed with lactose just yet. Would some of the advantages be mellowing the acid? I have had ciders do maalolactic fermentation but never encouraged one with a culture addition. This might be interesting

Just kegged up a batch. 3 weeks in primary and 3 days in the keg. It has a weird sour/appley taste on the finish. Can't really taste the malt backbone or the hops. Will it mellow out?? OG 1.065, FG 1.006. Used Safale-05

jvino said:

Just kegged up a batch. 3 weeks in primary and 3 days in the keg. It has a weird sour/appley taste on the finish. Can't really taste the malt backbone or the hops. Will it mellow out?? OG 1.065, FG 1.006. Used Safale-05

Click to expand...

I used the same yeast and have the same results as you. Just sorta eh, sour cider. I think mine is going to be riding in the keg for a long while. Left it out 4 weeks and kegged it two nights ago.

here is to hoping!

cidah, my blending experiment continues. i made a real sweet caramel beer with some 60L and 120L and fermented it with nottingham at about 62 degrees for 8 days. then i warmed it up to 70 degrees for 3 days, and at the same time, i put my cider in the fridge at near freezing for those 3 days. then i warmed up the cider to 60 degrees and blended the two. now i just have to hope that wine yeast doesn't kick back up to take out my residual malty sweetness from the beer

Hannable1975 said:

I have just spent 3 hours !!! reading every post in this thread, and have decided that on Christmas afternoon I am gonna brew up a batch of this and pitch onto a cake of S-04 that I will be racking off of on that day..... if I can wait that long.

Click to expand...

I'm brewing this Christmas day myself. Using Maris Otter as my base malt but I haven't decided if I am using Safale 04, 05 or Nottingham yeast yet.

Powers said:

cidah, my blending experiment continues. i made a real sweet caramel beer with some 60L and 120L and fermented it with nottingham at about 62 degrees for 8 days. then i warmed it up to 70 degrees for 3 days, and at the same time, i put my cider in the fridge at near freezing for those 3 days. then i warmed up the cider to 60 degrees and blended the two. now i just have to hope that wine yeast doesn't kick back up to take out my residual malty sweetness from the beer

Click to expand...

cool! are you putting it back in the refrig or letting sit out at room temp for a while now that you have blended it? How did you make the beer (your proportions fo 60L and 120L)? I am very interested to see how this turns out because this may be a great way to revive some young dry cider for early kegging.

My first batch of graff has changed quite a bit over time. I bottled it about 3 months ago (9/28). At about 2-3 weeks in the bottle, it had a perfect balance of tart / sweet / malt flavors. As it has aged, the maltiness has come to dominate. It still tastes quite good, but I have to say that I really miss that tart apple taste that it had at first. Looking forward to opening my first bottle of the second batch this holiday weekend.

I have some "Muntons Active Brewing yeast". I am wondering if I can brew up some Graff. I can match each of the other ingredients but would need a 40 minute drive to get better yeast.

Anyone know if this yeast will make a nice finish product? Would love to brew today but hate to waste all the materials by using a poor yeast. Thanks in advance.

I've made good beers with Munton's yeast. Nottingham or us-05 would be better but I seriously doubt that using Munton's yeast would produce an undrinkable product.

I brewed this up a couple of weeks ago. I popped the primary in the fridge for the last 3/4 days to cold crash. I'll be kegging it tomorrow or the next day.

I wonder how the yeast cake would do to pour another 5 gallons of apple juice on top to start another batch?

Do it.

A review of my second batch of Graff based on Brandon_O's recipe at the beginning of this thread. This time spiced for the holidays! Turned out great:

http://ahomebrewlog.blogspot.com/2010/12/holiday-spiced-graff.html

Click to expand...

txinga said:

I brewed this up a couple of weeks ago. I popped the primary in the fridge for the last 3/4 days to cold crash. I'll be kegging it tomorrow or the next day.

I wonder how the yeast cake would do to pour another 5 gallons of apple juice on top to start another batch?

Click to expand...

i would take about a cup of slurry from the yeast cake (use mr. malty's online calculator to be more precise) to pitch in a new batch. the whole yeast cake is usually a massive overpitch...

I have to assume this has been asked in this thread already, but.......what is the priming rate if bottling? I figure on using dextrose, so 3/4 cup?

rocketcrab said:

I have to assume this has been asked in this thread already, but.......what is the priming rate if bottling? I figure on using dextrose, so 3/4 cup?

Click to expand...

i'd aim for 2 to 2.5 volumes and use this chart...

Thank you, sir!!