Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

Do to price and me being a cheap ass about some things I am going with out the D2 syrup. The Indian markets have a real dark jaggery from a palm tree called Kitul Jaggery. It has awesome flavor and it's dark dark dark. I just need to go get two more pounds of it and this thing will be officially on deck in the next handful of brews.

About to do the transfer to secondary for the 2 months at 50F. It took 2 weeks to get down to the 1.014 SG with adding Nottinghams, I am calling that close enough.

As I am bottling and not kegging, will there still be enough yeast in suspension to carbonate after that much time? Adding yeast at bottling time seems risky to me, more art than science, so trying to avoid that. Any reason why I couldn't just bottle the brews, give them 2 weeks at room temp to carb up, then condition for a few months at 50F in the bottles?

Tall_Yotie said:

About to do the transfer to secondary for the 2 months at 50F. It took 2 weeks to get down to the 1.014 SG with adding Nottinghams, I am calling that close enough.

As I am bottling and not kegging, will there still be enough yeast in suspension to carbonate after that much time? Adding yeast at bottling time seems risky to me, more art than science, so trying to avoid that. Any reason why I couldn't just bottle the brews, give them 2 weeks at room temp to carb up, then condition for a few months at 50F in the bottles?

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There will probably be enough yeast but most of the Trappist brewers seem to add fresh yeast at bottling time which is what I plan on doing. For my last Beglian (fermented with 1214), I added some yeast from the krausen of my fermenting Westvleteren clone (3787) and it worked well.

The pitching rates seem to be equivalent to half of a pouch of Wyeast (roughly 100-150 billion cells) for 5 gallon batch. What is the risk in adding a little more yeast anyways?

Tall_Yotie said:

About to do the transfer to secondary for the 2 months at 50F. It took 2 weeks to get down to the 1.014 SG with adding Nottinghams, I am calling that close enough.

As I am bottling and not kegging, will there still be enough yeast in suspension to carbonate after that much time? Adding yeast at bottling time seems risky to me, more art than science, so trying to avoid that. Any reason why I couldn't just bottle the brews, give them 2 weeks at room temp to carb up, then condition for a few months at 50F in the bottles?

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To answer your second question, you could do that, but you will get a different result. Bulk aging in a secondary is different that bottle conditioning. It's not necessary worse to age in the bottles but people seem to prefer the flavors produced by bulk aging. Rochefort doesn't seem to builk age at all as there beer is in bottles in less than 2 weeks if I remember correctly so it can be done with good results.

Awesome, thanks for the info Gio!

I as concerned that adding a little more yeast would potentially result in over carbing, but I supposed if I add the same amount of priming sugar as I would then it wouldn't change the carb level terribly much.

I will have to look around for info on how to harvest yeast from krausen, sounds neat.

Tall_Yotie said:

Awesome, thanks for the info Gio!

I as concerned that adding a little more yeast would potentially result in over carbing, but I supposed if I add the same amount of priming sugar as I would then it wouldn't change the carb level terribly much.

I will have to look around for info on how to harvest yeast from krausen, sounds neat.

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Yeah, it's the sugar and the oxygen in the bottle that is the limiting factor when carbing, not the amount of yeast.

I just sanitize a turkey baster and suck up from the middle of the krausen when it is at it's highest. You can then store it in a small mason jar in the refrigerator for use later.

Nateo said:

I think it's funny that you can call them "authentic" syrups. That's a pretty meaningless term, but it sounds good for marketing, so it'll probably serve you well.

I hope the AHA doesn't mind, but I had the opportunity to ask Stan Hieronymus from BLAM about this for the last AHA "Ask and expert" column:
The gist of my question was "what's the deal with dark candi syrup?"
Stan Answers:
“Authentic” seems to cause particular confusion when it comes to monastery-brewed beers. Every Trappist brewery in Belgium has made many changes in process in recent years, even since BLAM was published. Things certainly have changed since the 1920s when Westmalle began using what was referred to as “candi sugar,” but was in fact what we would call dark syrup. Does the fact that a brewery would change vendors over time make it less authentic?

But specifically, no, there is no single vendor. The companies that make the syrup do much more business with confectionary manufacturers. Literally at the same time that BLAM was working its way through the final stages of production Brian Mercer was tracking down syrups to import and the result was Dark Candi Inc. I wouldn’t call it “black magic” but I’ve since tasted many American-brewed beers that have the same rich, rummy character you find in a beer from Rochefort, and those beers included Dark Candi in the recipe. As Randy Mosher has pointed out in his own books, and in providing a syrup recipe for BLAM, you can make your own dark syrup. You can also experiment with less refined sugars from specialty grocers. For example there is a Mexican grocery near me that sells a sugar with distinct rummy notes."

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Just as an insight from our tests, Randy Mosher's recipe is not an authentic, (nor a close approximation), Candi Syrup. Early on, we tried his and other permutations on the web and in print. All fail to match "authentic" Candi Syrup based on our testing throughout our due diligence to baseline the recipe(s). If you read the entire thread on this subject you'll note one of our partners is a food chemist. We've been trialing methods and materials for just over a year and have duplicated, (and in the opinion of some more than exceeded), the quality of the import syrups. Refined or unrefined sugars from Jaggary to Turbinado to Demerara, Beet, Cane, make no difference whatsoever. The complexity does not originate in the level of refined sucrose or lack of it or the origin of the sucrose, (Beet or Cane). If you are after a "rummy" affect then just use Sorghum. It's cheaper. If you're after something a little more complex then you'll need to use a more complex syrup. I believe brewers want the very best result from a Belgian Ale recipe. If you're interested in quality syrups and the science behind them you may look at the following volumes to give you a more empirical perspective on food flavor, especially the sections on sugars:

- Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavor Ingredients, Sixth Edition by George A. Burdock
- Flavor Chemistry and Technology, Second Edition by Gary Reineccius

The recipes, concepts, and materials you mention above sum up what we have affectionately come to know as the "Candi Syrup Myths". It has accumulated over many years and is propagated in many publications and is mostly wrong. I have always suspected the syrup makers and dealers of seeding the myths but there is no way of knowing the single point of origin. It does make for interesting and humorous reading. My favorite is that Candi Syrup is the "byproduct of the candy making process" and there is still one manufacturer in Holland still plunking this on their web site. I think the discussion based on "there is no definition" is yet another in a long list of deflections and myth and is a diversion from a more studied approach. Out of curiosity what methods are you using to measure "authentic" v. "inauthentic" in modern Candi Syrups?

We've taken the time and legal expense to patent our process. We also no longer use imports in our most expensive clones. They are simply inferior. This represents our own practice in brewing. We use only the best products for Belgian Ales. Our products will easily market themselves. In the years ahead we will see how this goes. Te market will determine what makes a better ale.

EDIT: In 3/2015 we completed our sales inventory and without any form of marketing our products sold tonnage in the US that exceeded any other adjunct supplier in the US. The market decided that our products were superior by vote of volume.

Well, first look up the definition of "authentic." If you are making "authentic" Trappist candi syrup, the sugar needs to be 1) Belgian, 2) used by Trappist breweries, and 3) made with the same ingredients and process.

Can Toyota make an "authentic" Ford Taurus? If you painted an exact copy of a Matisse, would your painting be "authentic?"

I'm not arguing about the quality of your product, just your poor choice of words. You can make a good syrup for brewing, but being "good" doesn't mean it's "authentic."

Since_Uuz_Up said:

Just as an insight from our tests, Randy Mosher's recipe is not authentic, (nor a close approximation). Early on, we tried his and nearly every other permutation on the web and in print. All fail to match "authentic" Belgian syrups based on our use of gas chromatography throughout. If you read the entire thread on this subject you'll note my partner is a Food Chemist. We've been trialing methods and materials for just over a year and have duplicated, (and in the opinion of some more than exceeded), the quality of the Belgian import syrups. Refined or unrefined sugars from Jaggary to Turbinado to Demerara, Beet, Cane, make no difference whatsoever. The complexity does not originate in the level of refined sucrose or lack of it. If you are after a "rummy" affect then just use Sorghum. It's cheaper. If you're after something a little more complex then you'll need to use a more complex syrup. I think brewers, (including me), want the very best result from a Belgian Ale recipe. Since I'm not sure what your angle is or if you have a vested interest in your statements, I can only guess that you're probably a vendor of long-shelved Belgian import syrups, (or even a dealer). If you're not a dealer or syrup retailer and you're serious about quality and obtaining a better syrup, you may look at the following volumes to give you a more empirical perspective on food flavor, especially the sections on sugars:

- Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavor Ingredients, Sixth Edition by George A. Burdock
- Flavor Chemistry and Technology, Second Edition by Gary Reineccius

The recipes, concepts, and materials you mention above sum up what we have affectionately come to know as the "Belgian Syrup Myths". It has accumulated over many years and is propagated in many publications and is mostly wrong. I have always suspected the syrup makers of seeding the myths but there is no way of knowing the single point of origin. It does make for interesting reading though. My favorite is that Belgian Candi Syrup is the "byproduct of the candy making process" and there is still one manufacturer in Holland still promoting this. I think the discussion based on "there is no definition" is yet another in a long list of deflections and myth. Out of curiosity what methods are you using to measure "authentic" v. "inauthentic" in modern Belgian syrups?

We've taken the time and legal expense to patent our process. This represents our own self-assurance. The product will easily market itself.

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Thanks so much again for sharing your knowledge. It seems that most people out there think that candi syrup can be easily recreated at home and it frustrates me to no end because the recipes don't even taste the same (gas chromatography aside). My LHBS even tried to sell dark rock candy sugar when I asked them if they had D2 claiming it was the same thing and I didn't need to pay more for an import.

What are you using as a standard to test your syrups against? Are you comparing with the syrups from dark candi? Have you been able to get other Belgian syrups imported? Do they vary in composition too and if so, how can you tell which ones are actually used by the brewers in Belgium?

I'm not a chemist either but I'm interested in learning more about it (and pretty much anything that could make my Belgians taste better) so I'm going to take a look at those books (they are way out of my price range on amazon but fortunately I've located them in libraries nearby). Do you think they would be accessible to someone with a strong science background but no particular chemistry past intro college-level chem (not organic)?

gio said:

There will probably be enough yeast but most of the Trappist brewers seem to add fresh yeast at bottling time which is what I plan on doing. For my last Beglian (fermented with 1214), I added some yeast from the krausen of my fermenting Westvleteren clone (3787) and it worked well.

The pitching rates seem to be equivalent to half of a pouch of Wyeast (roughly 100-150 billion cells) for 5 gallon batch. What is the risk in adding a little more yeast anyways?

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geo is right on the money. As an aside, you may also want to hold your bottles at a modest 75-78F for 10-14 days for initial carbonation....then off to the cellar! I have to admit this is about the best Belgian recipe we have brewed. saq and team did us all quite a favor in researching and testing this.

gio said:

Thanks so much again for sharing your knowledge. It seems that most people out there think that candi syrup can be easily recreated at home and it frustrates me to no end because the recipes don't even taste the same (gas chromatography aside). My LHBS even tried to sell dark rock candy sugar when I asked them if they had D2 claiming it was the same thing and I didn't need to pay more for an import.

What are you using as a standard to test your syrups against? Are you comparing with the syrups from dark candi? Have you been able to get other Belgian syrups imported? Do they vary in composition too and if so, how can you tell which ones are actually used by the brewers in Belgium?

I'm not a chemist either but I'm interested in learning more about it (and pretty much anything that could make my Belgians taste better) so I'm going to take a look at those books (they are way out of my price range on amazon but fortunately I've located them in libraries nearby). Do you think they would be accessible to someone with a strong science background but no particular chemistry past intro college-level chem (not organic)?

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gio, great observations. We use three variants to baseline. The Dark Candi D and D2, the Dutch Kandij Sirop, (from Kandico), and Sirop Kandi, (an off Belgian import). The Dutch has the highest percentage of Maillard compounds and is richest in flavor and results in the best Ale of the imports. Our D180 exceeds the Kandij Sirop in flavor and Maillard compound density. I use only our syrups now just because they simply make the better ale and I'm very perfectionistic about my Belgians

The texts are a combination of organic chem as it relates to food science and some biology as well, (who knew right?). These are the textbooks my partners and I have become comfortable with. After Intro Chem I had one semester of Organic Chem in my undergrad I hated chem after that. There's a section on the Maillard process that is worth the effort though. It won't help create a kitchen version of the syrups but will sure give a great snapshot of the complexity of what we had to go through to get where we are today. It was frustrating and time consuming but worth it

gio said:

Thanks so much again for sharing your knowledge. It seems that most people out there think that candi syrup can be easily recreated at home and it frustrates me to no end because the recipes don't even taste the same (gas chromatography aside). My LHBS even tried to sell dark rock candy sugar when I asked them if they had D2 claiming it was the same thing and I didn't need to pay more for an import.

What are you using as a standard to test your syrups against? Are you comparing with the syrups from dark candi? Have you been able to get other Belgian syrups imported? Do they vary in composition too and if so, how can you tell which ones are actually used by the brewers in Belgium?

I'm not a chemist either but I'm interested in learning more about it (and pretty much anything that could make my Belgians taste better) so I'm going to take a look at those books (they are way out of my price range on amazon but fortunately I've located them in libraries nearby). Do you think they would be accessible to someone with a strong science background but no particular chemistry past intro college-level chem (not organic)?

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Thanks gio, when is your first tasting date for your Westvleteren clone? I just tasted a 7 month bottle that I cellared, (45-50F), and it makes the wait well worth it.

gio said:

Thanks so much again for sharing your knowledge. It seems that most people out there think that candi syrup can be easily recreated at home and it frustrates me to no end because the recipes don't even taste the same (gas chromatography aside). My LHBS even tried to sell dark rock candy sugar when I asked them if they had D2 claiming it was the same thing and I didn't need to pay more for an import.

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gio, I have to say the same frustration of lacking product and the upstream battle of all the myths drove us to this project. For me at least brewing great beer is a very exacting practice. Using substitutes may be OK for some things but not for beer and never for a Belgian.

+1 for gio.

Since_Uuz_Up said:

gio, great observations. We use three variants to baseline. The Dark Candi D and D2, the Dutch Kandij Sirop, (from Kandico), and Sirop Kandi, (an off Belgian import). The Dutch has the highest percentage of Maillard compounds and is richest in flavor and results in the best Ale of the imports. Our D180 exceeds the Kandij Sirop in flavor and Maillard compound density. I use only our syrups now just because they simply make the better ale and I'm very perfectionistic about my Belgians

The texts are a combination of organic chem as it relates to food science and some biology as well, (who knew right?). These are the textbooks my partner uses and I have become comfortable with them. After Intro Chem I had one semester of Organic Chem in my undergrad I hated chem after that. There's a section on the Maillard process that is worth the effort though. It won't help create a kitchen version of the syrups but will sure give a great snapshot of the complexity of what we had to go through to get where we are today.

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I'm trying to get my sister's advice (she used to be a food chemist although she makes cleaning chemicals now). I realize you can't make the good stuff on the stovetop, but that won't stop me from experimenting for the fun of it. I attend a monthly flea market where I can get surplus and used glassware and lab equipment so maybe I'll find some equipment to help me get closer to authentic syrups. I can't wait for the next one - I plan on buying a microscope and hemacytometer so I can accurately measure yeast pitching rates.

Since_Uuz_Up said:

Thanks gio, when is your first tasting date for your Westvleteren clone? I just tasted a 7 month bottle that I stored under my house, (45-50F), and it makes the wait well worth it. If it gets any better I'm going to stop telling people I have any left. I feel guilty not sending saq cash just for sharing this recipe Well, I could always pay the postage on his 3lbs trial D180!

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It's only been in the secondary almost 2 weeks now so I have at least 4 more weeks before bottling. I can't wait. My Rochefort 10 clone is 2 weeks behind that. Next up is a Pannepot clone although I'm even really sure where to begin with that one.

gio said:

I'm trying to get my sister's advice (she used to be a food chemist although she makes cleaning chemicals now). I realize you can't make the good stuff on the stovetop, but that won't stop me from experimenting for the fun of it. I attend a monthly flea market where I can get surplus and used glassware and lab equipment so maybe I'll find some equipment to help me get closer to authentic syrups. I can't wait for the next one - I plan on buying a microscope and hemacytometer so I can accurately measure yeast pitching rates.

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As I think about it, if you get a chance and are motivated to do it, I would encourage some good market innovation. Maybe you can raise the bar for this industry and the market competition will create a US industry that exceeds the European one? I think the Dutch and Belgians have had their chance and dropped the ball. If you do create a great product, make sure and protect your methods and processes with a patent.

gotta brew this

Now that you have a patent, can you share the process with us?

So I finally ordered the sugar and the yeast today to do the decoction version of this. I'm really looking forward to this one!

I hate making starters though, so I might do a fun little blond to build up a yeast cake for this...Any thoughts about that?

I would pitch on the blonde. You need a lot of yeast for this bad boy.

We actually just discussed in the last few pages not using too much yeast. Go back and read.

saq said:

We actually just discussed in the last few pages not using too much yeast. Go back and read.

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Went back and re-read that. I'm still considering the blonde as a starter but using a cup to scoop out the appropriate amount of yeast to pitch in the westy...I've successfully done this in a few other brews.

I'm curious about whether slightly underpitching results in a better beer in this case though (as you alluded to in a post several pages back)...

saq said:

We actually just discussed in the last few pages not using too much yeast. Go back and read.

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Depending on a lot of factors, a cake from a blonde may not be too much yeast. Measuring the amount of yeast you pitch is, of course, always better.

orangehero said:

Now that you have a patent, can you share the process with us?

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Our LLC has non-disclosure clauses in our corporate charter for the partners so it just isn't possible without loss. The patent is also pending on the process (not the recipe).

However, in the spirit of open brewing I would be happy to share any and all of our brewing recipes. In fact, these will be printed on our packaging.

When or where are we going to get to try this stuff. I am antsy from reading about it. I just ordered the Belgian Candi brand stuff to do this recipe up. I would like to compare it to the belgian candi brand and also some Kitul Jaggery which is super dark palm sugar.

Mischief_Brewing said:

Went back and re-read that. I'm still considering the blonde as a starter but using a cup to scoop out the appropriate amount of yeast to pitch in the westy...I've successfully done this in a few other brews.

I'm curious about whether slightly underpitching results in a better beer in this case though (as you alluded to in a post several pages back)...

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What yeast strain did you use in your blonde?

Just as an FYI, saq has the lead in brewing this recipe and I think it's fair to say he's probably the originator of the recipe within the team who collaborated on this. His advice, though succinct, is usually pretty good.

smokinghole said:

When or where are we going to get to try this stuff. I am antsy from reading about it. I just ordered the Belgian Candi brand stuff to do this recipe up. I would like to compare it to the belgian candi brand and also some Kitul Jaggery which is super dark palm sugar.

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It will initially be available for direct order from our site. We will then branch out to LHBS locations around the country. The direct order site will be launched this Fall. The site itself is already done but the packaging and production location is still under construction.

We will be offering D90 and D180. D180 is the premium Belgian style candi syrup you would use in the Westy clones. We will offer a limited number of sample packs at shipping cost only, (100 packs or so).

BTW, we have a recipe for an English oatmeal stout that uses 1# of Date sugar that is fantastic. The Date sugar adds a very nice richness.

Since_Uuz_Up said:

What yeast strain did you use in your blonde?

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The yeast is in transit and I'll throw together a quick 5-gal 1.04 blonde once it arrives. It's Wyeast Trappist High Gravity 3787.

After 5 long batches from last Fall we have decided on our favorite variation to saq's outstanding recipe. Most of our team from Candi Syrup, Inc concluded unanimously that this is as near perfect to an actual Westvletern 12 that we have tasted in our test batches using D180. Hats off to saq and team. Here is our adjusted recipe:

WESTVLETEREN 12 CLONE - VARIATION 005

SPECS:
Yeast: WLP530 or WY3787
Yeast Starter: 1.75L - 2.0L (Stir plate required)
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
IBU: 34
SRM: 35
OG: 1.092
FG: 1.012
ABV: 11.36%
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

MASH WATER
9.00 Gallons spring water.

FERMENTATION:
Primary: 7 days in glass @ 65F ramp controlled to 83F
Secondary: 7 days @ 65F
Additional: 49 days @ 50 - 52F

FERMENTABLES
3.00 lbs D180 Belgian-style Candi Syrup (Candi Syrup, Inc.)
12.0 lbs Dingemann's Belgian Pilsner
4.00 lbs Dingemann's Belgian Pale
0.10 lbs Belgian Debittered black malt (very important addition here)

HOPS
1.00 oz Brewers Gold [9.70 %] (60 min)
1.00 oz Hersbrucker [2.40 %] (30 min)
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (25 min)

OTHER
1 - Servomyces tab (optional)

MASH SCHEDULE
Protein Rest: @ 132.0 F (9 gallons in), 30 min.
Low Saccharification: @152F. (Decoction), 35 min.
High Saccharification: @158F. (Decoction), 35 min.

NOTES
Note, add syrup at 3 minutes prior to flame-out. Chill to 65F. Pitch and ramp temp from 65F to 82-83F over 5 days and hold at 83F for 2 days more. At this point you should be near a gravity of 1.020. Rack to secondary at 65f for another 7 days then let "languish" for 49 days at 55-60F in glass. If your yeast is strong and your candi syrup is premium, (we're biased), you should hit terminal gravity 1.012 in about 21 days. Bottle or keg after another 28 days (total 49 days). Fantastic after 5 months...getting better every month after.

Final notes: the Brewers Gold hops was a very good choice for authenticity in this ale. It added that slightly needed additional flavor profile for a perfect Westy 12 clone. Also, saccharification temps at first glance look high but we found over trial and error that the higher temps contribute to the unique "chewy" mouth-feel and texture and helps the flavors linger on the palate. Last but not least, we tried to keep this recipe simple with the candi syrup, yeast, and hops developing the flavors on a simple base of 2 grains, (w/ a pinch of black malt for aging stability). This ale is a genuine work of art.

Cheers!

www.candisyrup.com

Sounds great, I'm about to brew a new batch, when can I get 3lbs of D180 for my quad

saq said:

Sounds great, I'm about to brew a new batch, when can I get 3lbs of D180 for my quad

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In response to requests we've worked to move our release date to June this year, (rather than October). We will not be at full volume capacity in June but we will be able to provide home brewers D-90 and D-180. For those micro-breweries who have made requests, October will still be our target date for volume Belgian style syrups.

Anyone can go out to our new corporate info site, (which will also be a direct order site in June), to register for a free 1lb sample. (saq, we can get you what you need for a full batch of Westy 12. Make sure and note your homebrewtalk id name "saq" on the online form so we'll know).

Go to www.candisyrup.com, select the menu Contact->Request a Sample and register. Once you register you're guaranteed for the sample of D-180. A shipping payment request will be sent over email before we send the sample out in June. The shipping cost will be nominal.

Below is a snapshot of our promotional containers of D-180.

Candi Syrup, Inc.
www.candisyrup.com

Hey Since, thanks for the recipe! I will have to try it. May have to do it once with the lower quality syrup to try out the recipe, and see the light when yours stuff is available for purchase!

On the Saq recipe, I followed the New World, got it down to 1.014 (good enough), and is near point to bottle. It tastes good, but I cracked open a Westy12 two nights ago (I have 6, boo ya!) and my brew seemed to lack the deep dark fruit flavor and aroma that makes Westy12 so damned awesome. It seemed that at the 2 month mark it was good to go from what I was reading. Do I need to let this go in the bottles for a few months to get those deeper fruit notes that I am seeking?

And back to you Since, seems I missed the promo period. Ah well, will have to get some from you anyway come the release date!

Brewed the Pious New World recipe today. Thank you Saq for the recipe and all of the advice.

Tall_Yotie said:

Hey Since, thanks for the recipe! I will have to try it. May have to do it once with the lower quality syrup to try out the recipe, and see the light when yours stuff is available for purchase!

On the Saq recipe, I followed the New World, got it down to 1.014 (good enough), and is near point to bottle. It tastes good, but I cracked open a Westy12 two nights ago (I have 6, boo ya!) and my brew seemed to lack the deep dark fruit flavor and aroma that makes Westy12 so damned awesome. It seemed that at the 2 month mark it was good to go from what I was reading. Do I need to let this go in the bottles for a few months to get those deeper fruit notes that I am seeking?

And back to you Since, seems I missed the promo period. Ah well, will have to get some from you anyway come the release date!

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Part of it is D1 is really sweet and not super deep dark fruit character, the D2 helps some but doesn't really do the trick. I'd love to see what I can do with D180.

saq said:

Part of it is D1 is really sweet and not super deep dark fruit character, the D2 helps some but doesn't really do the trick. I'd love to see what I can do with D180.

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D-180 has both dark toasted flavors and the very, very rich dark fruit flavors as well. The dark fruit flavors show even more in the beer after a few weeks racked. The delivery run of D-180 for the promotion is being packaged now . Delivery for some will come early.

Well if sample delivery it soon enough I will use it for at least a portion of the westy I'm planning brewing. I have a full compliment of D2 but may supplement to at least add some of the dark fruit flavors that I keep hearing the D180 has.

smokinghole said:

Well if sample delivery it soon enough I will use it for at least a portion of the westy I'm planning brewing. I have a full compliment of D2 but may supplement to at least add some of the dark fruit flavors that I keep hearing the D180 has.

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We're advancing the June promotional delivery of D-180 to May. Some will receive theirs earlier in May and others later in the month.

saq said:

Part of it is D1 is really sweet and not super deep dark fruit character, the D2 helps some but doesn't really do the trick. I'd love to see what I can do with D180.

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That was my concern. Again, the real draw of the Westy12 was the dark fruit notes that come through. I am going to keep attempting the brew until I get it right. May be years, but I will do it, because if I can it will be a staple.

Tall_Yotie said:

That was my concern. Again, the real draw of the Westy12 was the dark fruit notes that come through. I am going to keep attempting the brew until I get it right. May be years, but I will do it, because if I can it will be a staple.

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Tall_Yottie,

Feel free to send us a note at http://www.candisyrup.com/general-contact-form.html and if you want to leave us your mailing address info I'll get a gold-foil sealed pack of D-180 sent out to you. Make sure and let us know your HBT name so we know it's you.

Danke, have now done so!

I will be certain to report the status of the brew once supplies are gathered and it has come to maturity. Luckily I have the real thing to compare it to, though I still and rather frugal on my samplings.