Carbonation

Hey there guys
I've just cracked open a bottle of brigalow apple cider that I bottled two weeks ago and it's not really the fizzy
I'm using 330ml glass bottles each bottle I put in 1/2 teaspoon of normal house hold sugar.

FG was 1000 as it said it would be on the instructions. It was put on a heat pad for another 4days then put in a dark room at 10deg C for the remaining 1.5 week
Where have I gone wrong? Or am I just rushing it to much

Don't measure sugar by volume. It's not consistent enough. If you're adding sugar to the bottles directly, use carb drops. But really, get a bottling bucket and add the priming sugar before transferring the cider into it.

That said, two weeks isn't that long. Wait another couple weeks before you give up on the bubbles.

crazychris66 said:

Hey there guys
I've just cracked open a bottle of brigalow apple cider that I bottled two weeks ago and it's not really the fizzy
I'm using 330ml glass bottles each bottle I put in 1/2 teaspoon of normal house hold sugar.

FG was 1000 as it said it would be on the instructions. It was put on a heat pad for another 4days then put in a dark room at 10deg C for the remaining 1.5 week
Where have I gone wrong? Or am I just rushing it to much

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I never bottle prime, way too inconsistent, bulk prime the entire batch and measure by weight. I prefer dextrose because it dissolves easier and being a monosaccharide yeast eats it up easier.

Ok thanks. Iv never bulk primed before. Can you explain in steps how I can do this now?

I had a 18L batch of cider.
How much sugar etc.

I was told not to use carbon drops as I could be to much sugar and make the bottles into little bombs

A good rule of thumb is 1oz per gallon (3.75 L) of table sugar or corn sugar. Dissolve in a cup or so of water, add to a bottling bucket and rack the cider onto it to mix it in. Then bottle!

You need to wait longer. Two weeks is too short. Be patient for up to a month for the secondary fermentation to finish. (by "secondary" I mean the fermentation to add carbonation)

Also significantly, 10* Celsius, which is only about 50*F is not sufficient for any portion of your secondary fermentation with most yeasts ... in fact, for any fermentation at all with many yeasts. Even for the common ones which are lower temp such as EC-1118, D47, Premier Cuvee etc.
You need to raise the temp to about 70*F which is about 21*C.

In general, the amount of carbonation you end up with is dependent on a couple things ... the amount of residual carbonation that your cider had from the primary fermentation ... and the amount of priming sugar you put in to do the “carbonating fermentation”.

Though the ½ teaspoon amount of sugar you added could be on the light side ... the proof will be in the pudding.

So ... raise the temp .... wait for 3 to 4 weeks and see what you get and whether you like it.

Lets say you don’t get the carbonation you want ... how much sugar should have been added?
Say you want a decent amount of carbonation similar to a commercial lager .... or about “2.25 volumes” of carbonation. Lets guess that your primary ferment at 20* Celsius left .88 volumes in the cider to begin with and you did not degass too much from handling. This would mean you want an additional 1.3 volumes of carbonation to get it to 2.25.
The amount of sugar you need to add to get an extra 1.3 volumes of CO2 in a 12oz bottle is about 1/2 teaspoon.

But ya never know. Measuring tiny amounts of sugar into small bottles of cider at an unknown residual sweetness and with an uncertain amount of initial carbonation (from the first ferment) to begin with is a bit of a crap shoot.
Maybe after a month the carbonation will be enough that you like it! ... but if it was me, I’d pop the caps, add an additional 3/4 of a teaspoon sugar to each bottle (to be safe) ... re-cap, give it a brief shake and let ‘em sit at 21* Celsius / 70*F.
Open one bottle in two weeks ... another one at 3 weeks ... another at 4 weeks. If at some point you find that you have all the carbonation you want in it ... put the whole batch in the refrigerator to stop the fermentation.

BTW all this fraction of a teaspoon stuff is why priming is best done either in bulk or, if in the bottle, with priming tabs as was mentioned.

For what it’s worth, if you want to read more technical blibber on how to prime for carbonation ... here are a few posts from a while back ... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/cloudy-cider-269568/index2.html

Finally ... you say you put the bottles on a heating pad for 4 days. If you mean like an “electric blanket” that would be ok ... but if it is one of the smaller therapeutic heating pads, there is some possibility of killing some or all of yeast in that 4 day amount of time. Heating pads range from 110* to 160* with an Underwriters Labs maximum of 176* Fahrenheit ... whereas “electric blankets” usually get from about 80* to 120*.

Time will tell if this was the case.

What's a bottling bucket. Sorry if that's a dumb question. I just bottle right from the barrel

Google

mike_in_ak said:

Google

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Thats not the spirit...

A bottling bucket is just that, a bucket - or seperate fermenter - that you rack into and then bottle from. Helps reduce sediment in your bottles doing it that way. Can also add your priming sugar - for carbonation - to it, before transferring the brew to get aneven blend. Usually has a tap at the bottom unlike a demijohn, so you can use a rapid bottler.

Nothing wrong with bottling from the primary fermenter though!

Yes there is something wrong with that.

Revvy said:

Why make it so hard on yourself?

The problem with bottling from a primary or secondary instead of using a bottling bucket, is that since you have patiently gone and let your beer settle and clear, in order to mix the priming solution and beer effectively, you would have to stir it in the carboy which would a) kick up all that nice sediment you have patiently let fall, b) possibly oxydize the beer.

It really defeats the purpose of both a long primary/no secondary or a secondary if you have to stir up all the nice sediment you patiently waited to settle just so you can have consistent carbonation.

Why don't you just go to the hardware store and make a bottling bucket? You can find everything you need, including a spigot there.

With my bottling bucket and my dip tube, I leave no more than about 3 ounces behind, which means I can get about 52 to 54 bottles per 5 gallon batch.

Go to a hardware store and get a translucent or white bucket...but look for one where the 5 gallon mark falls way below the top of the bucket. Usually it will say 5 gallons at 3rd band from the top. (oh get the lid too....I totally regret not getting it when I did.)

Then get a spigot and make a dedicated bottling bucket. It really defeats the purpose of both a long primary/no secondary or a secondary if you have to stir up all the nice sediment you patiently waited to settle just so you can have consistent carbonation.

Mine is the translucent Leaktite brand 5 gallon container with the gallon and liter markings from Homedepot.



Here's a pic of mine from my bottling thread.



One of my dip tubes and what gets left behind.



You'll find a ton of good info here to make bottling easier.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/revvys-tips-bottler-first-time-otherwise-94812/
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Gis

mike_in_ak said:

Yes there is something wrong with that.

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Not if you're careful and don't disturb the lees too much. Did plenty of brews this way as a new brewer, no dramas! Back when I didn't have an army of vessels at my disposal...

It doesn't an army. It takes a bucket. Why do it wrong?

If you do end up re-priming transfer one bottle to a same size plastic soda bottle and use it as your carb control bottle. When it is firm (or explodes) you usually have carbonation in other bottles. At least that has worked for me.

saramc said:

If you do end up re-priming transfer one bottle to a same size plastic soda bottle and use it as your carb control bottle. When it is firm (or explodes) you usually have carbonation in other bottles. At least that has worked for me.

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I have put them back in a warm place for the next 7 days so will see how it goes then if still nothing will add more sugar and a wee bit of yeast...............what do you all think

crazychris66 said:

I have put them back in a warm place for the next 7 days so will see how it goes then if still nothing will add more sugar and a wee bit of yeast...............what do you all think

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Sounds like a plan.

If you want to test to see if there is enough active yeast you could just open a 330ml bottle, dump it into a larger bottle or container, add a tablespoonful of sugar, give it a good 30 second shake (yeast like oxygen) and put it in a warm area to see if fermentation re-starts. (don't re-cap that one ... a bit too much sugar)

If fermentation does re-start in the test bottle, then adding more priming sugar to the others should do the trick with a bit of patience and a warm room.

Jacob_Marley said:

Sounds like a plan.

If you want to test to see if there is enough active yeast you could just open a 330ml bottle, dump it into a larger bottle or container, add a tablespoonful of sugar, give it a good 30 second shake (yeast like oxygen) and put it in a warm area to see if fermentation re-starts. (don't re-cap that one ... a bit too much sugar)

If fermentation does re-start in the test bottle, then adding more priming sugar to the others should do the trick with a bit of patience and a warm room.

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Thanks for that

crazychris66 said:

Thanks for that

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It's been weeks now, how did things go?

michael_mus said:

It's been weeks now, how did things go?

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It got bait more carbonation but still not as fizzy as I'd like. I might need to leave it more or be the risk batch I throw out

crazychris66 said:

It got bait more carbonation but still not as fizzy as I'd like. I might need to leave it more or be the risk batch I throw out

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Interesting. Well, you could always chill it and enjoy 'still' too.

I bottled a batch of beer and a batch of cider on the same day. Seems that the Safale US-05 I used for the beer carbed up already but the WLP775 English Cider yeast I used in the cider is either a lot slower or not carbing at all.

I'm on the cusp of being able to bottle a batch of cider. How much priming sugar should be used per gallon of cider?

crazychris66 said:

It got bait more carbonation but still not as fizzy as I'd like. I might need to leave it more or be the risk batch I throw out

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Definitely don't throw it out because it didn't carb. It's still tasty right? If you can't drink it still, just pour a splash of seltzer or sprite in the glass.

hehawbrew said:

I'm on the cusp of being able to bottle a batch of cider. How much priming sugar should be used per gallon of cider?

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I think it was Jacob that stated previously, it's going to depend on the temp of the cider when bottled and how much residual CO2 you have in there. Your final gravity will come into play also, if you haven't fermented it to dry. Here is a calculator that will help.

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

I personally don't add more than about 3.5 oz of Dextrose/Corn Sugar to my batches for priming, but I have some variables that I deal with.

Pickled_Pepper said:

I think it was Jacob that stated previously, it's going to depend on the temp of the cider when bottled and how much residual CO2 you have in there. Your final gravity will come into play also, if you haven't fermented it to dry. Here is a calculator that will help.

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

I personally don't add more than about 3.5 oz of Dextrose/Corn Sugar to my batches for priming, but I have some variables that I deal with.

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Thank! Very helpful!

Pickled_Pepper said:

Definitely don't throw it out because it didn't carb. It's still tasty right? If you can't drink it still, just pour a splash of seltzer or sprite in the glass.

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Great idea will do that

So, I have a gallon of cider that bubbles once every minute and a half. I took a sip and it has a nice, lite, carbonation. Can I bottle it now or will it ferment too much and then blow up? Or, can I pasteurized it, then set it and forget it?

My post should get a lot less annoying after I get a few successful gallons under my belt!

You could bottle and pasteurize it...no problems. If you don't pasteurize it...yes...there would most likely be problems. I've had batches that showed no sign of activity in the airlock...for days. And then, if I put the thief in there to take a gravity reading and put the airlock back on...it starts bubbling again. Usually my fermentation is done but it seems to unsettle the CO2 in solution.

The only real way to know where you are is to take a gravity reading.

Cool. Thanks. I need to read up on lots of stuff still and become familiar with how/why/what is a gravity reading! I'm an über noob!

I was pretty excited to get this process started and I could hardly sleep......so at 6 this morning, I bottled my first batch! I am not a patient person, so I did a 1/2 gallon batch on the side to satisfy my ADHD( this is what I bottled). Anyway- drank one on an empty stomach to test the ABV and I'm proud to say I'm honestly buzzed at 720 a.m! I will probably drink the others tomorrow after a night on the fridge. But- the cider is tasty. Definitely going to let the other few gallons sit a while longer tho.

Ha! Very funny post. Well done and cheers!

hehawbrew said:

I was pretty excited to get this process started and I could hardly sleep......so at 6 this morning, I bottled my first batch! I am not a patient person, so I did a 1/2 gallon batch on the side to satisfy my ADHD( this is what I bottled). Anyway- drank one on an empty stomach to test the ABV and I'm proud to say I'm honestly buzzed at 720 a.m! I will probably drink the others tomorrow after a night on the fridge. But- the cider is tasty. Definitely going to let the other few gallons sit a while longer tho.

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Those are the best days, a friend of mine would often drink a few shots of whisky and a beer with his bacon and eggs and call it a "roofer's breakfast"

That's a good breakfast!

Last years cider was made with EC-1118 and sat in the secondary a month. It carbed up nicely.

This year I used Red Star Chamagne and sat in the secondary a couple months. It's carving slowly and still isn't very fizzy.

I'm gonna move it to a warmer part of the house for a few days. I hope that helps.

Inner10 said:

Those are the best days, a friend of mine would often drink a few shots of whisky and a beer with his bacon and eggs and call it a "roofer's breakfast"

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Because the rest of your day has an angle on it?

michael_mus said:

Because the rest of your day has an angle on it?

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Lol probably because he was a roofer...although he ended up drinking so much he had alcohol poisoning, then withdrawal caused seizures and a heart attack and nerve damage...