Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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There is a school of thought that you pull more for your decoction then needed so you are certian to hit your target temp when adding it back. Any left over you would continue to let cool until it reaches the same temp as the mash and add it back.
 
There is a school of thought that you pull more for your decoction then needed so you are certian to hit your target temp when adding it back. Any left over you would continue to let cool until it reaches the same temp as the mash and add it back.

This I guess is what I was referring to, I watched a BrauKaiser video where he does a decoction and he had leftover liquid after having raised the temp. I appreciate the response.
 
Decoction Mash, Double
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F

Ok, so I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. I understand most of what goes on here, haha. But I just have to say, man, I've been eyeing this recipe for a looong time. I want to make this for my brothers wedding but I just want to check some things. This is for the The Pious Traditional btw.

I use a coolerbox mash tun setup btw. Ok, so according to my veeeery basic understanding this is what I get from this recipe, please correct me if I'm wrong. You grind up all the grains and mash in, with 32 quarts of 137.5F water, which settles at 132F. Then leave it to soak for 10min at 132F. Then I proceed to remove 8.79 quarts of said mash and bring it to the boil, however long that takes. I then pour the 8.79 quarts back (or whatever is left) into the coolerbox and mix, with the idea that it will raise the temperature to 151F. I leave this to rest for 30min. After the 30min, I remove another 4.85 quarts and bring that to the boil, chuck it back in, to raise the temp to 159F this time and leave it for another 30 minutes. After the 30min I sparge (not even sure if I need to, 32 quarts is alot of water). I then boil, adding hops accordingly. Im not sure when in the boil I should add the syrup. Then ferment according to the explanation (that I at least understand).

Am I correct in my thoughts. Would really appreciate some help. Thanks
 
You have to pull the thick part of the mash (leave most of the enzymes behind in the watery part). When you heat the decoction, you should rest it at a sachcrification temp for a bit (10-20min) to convert any starches present before boiling it.

When adding the boiling decoction back to the main mash, do so in parts with stirring, to be sure you don't over-shoot your sach. rest temp in the main mash.
 
g-star said:
When you heat the decoction, you should rest it at a sachcrification temp for a bit (10-20min) to convert any starches present before boiling it.
.

I don't believe this should be a concern when using modern base malts. By boiling the starches you are adding color and flavor (insert Malliard blah-blah-blah here) but additionally you are solubilizing the starch so that the liquified enzymes you left behind in the thin part of the mash can more easily break it down to fermentables when you add it back to the mash tun and you are at conversion rest.
By converting it prior to boiling it you would be in effect, negating the purpose of the decoction and doing a standard wort boil; yes?
 
No. You get the Malliard reactions from boiling reducing sugars in the presence of amino acids. These sugars must first be created by enzymatic reduction of starches (the sach. rest before boiling).

A reducing sugar (like maltose) has an open-chain form with an aldehyde group or a free hemiacetal group. Boiling un-coverted starches defeats the purposes of decoction mashing if your goal is increased color/flavor. It might work following your logic if you just want conversion, though.
 
g-star said:
No. You get the Malliard reactions from boiling reducing sugars in the presence of amino acids. These sugars must first be created by enzymatic reduction of starches (the sach. rest before boiling).

A reducing sugar (like maltose) has an open-chain form with an aldehyde group or a free hemiacetal group. Boiling un-coverted starches defeats the purposes of decoction mashing if your goal is increased color/flavor. It might work following your logic if you just want conversion, though.

Roger that.... I understand the Malliard deal, but in all my encounters with decoction discussions I'd never heard any talk of conversion in the decoction itself, I thought it was more about gelatinization of the starch for conversion and as a bonus there was a flavor/ color impact. Otherwise you would only need to extend the boil or make a reduction of some wort runnings (which is a technique that appears in this thread as I recall).
I can see where your method would have some merit though, I just never thought of it in those terms before.
 
Ah. Thanks for all the info, I didn't know that I was only supposed to boil the thick part of the mash. But I just want to know if my reasoning, in the above post, surrounding the decoction mash, is correct or not. Concerning the temperature increases via boiling, chucking back and the 30 minute waiting periods.

Thanks
 
Boiling un-coverted starches defeats the purposes of decoction.

Decoction is more than the boiling of starches. Also, using decoction as a conversion event in a slow boil for 'this recipe' is moot and is a mistake. You simply will not get the flavor result from the decoction if you're slow cooking it like oatmeal. Proof's in the making...try it both ways.
 
Well, I couldn't sleep past 6am on a Sunday morning. What better thing to do than brew some coffee and a beer that you can't enjoy until the end of summer. I pitched the New World version onto a yeast cake from a Dubbel I had made with a 1 L starter of the Wyeast strain. The Dubbel came out fantastic (I was sipping on the left overs all day that didn't fit into the secondary carboy). Now less than 6 hours later this Quad is happily bubbling away. I figure that should be a big enough starter to get it down low enough in a week.

I used a anti-foam powder on this one (because the Krausen on my Dubbel was flowing steadily out the blowoff). Has anyone had experience with this stuff? Do I need to keep an eye on the blowoff tube clogging?
 
ao125 said:
I just priced this one out and it looks like it's going to be around $68 to brew this, AG.

Yikes.

Make your own candi syrup.. There's an excellent thread on it here somewhere.
 
Hi, can I ask how this modification turned out? Also, is the recipe correct with just 2 hop additions, because I only get 28 IBU in beersmith with the Rager formula, not 37.9? Finally, what water profile are you targeting? Sorry if I missed that earlier, it's a long thread!

Hard to say. Best one I ever did was so far New World batch 1. In a week or so I'm brewing the following

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.75 gal
Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Estimations

Estimated OG: 1.091 SG
Estimated FG: 1.006 SG
Estimated ABV: 11.4 %
Estimated Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.065 SG
Bitterness: 37.9 IBUs (Rager)
Estimated Color: 36.8 SRM
Color
Brewery Information

Brewer: saq
Assistant:
Equipment: Blichmann 10g Kettle
Efficiency: 75.00


Measurements

Measured OG: 1.090 SG
Measured FG: 1.012 SG
ABV: 10.4 %

Total Grains: 17 lbs 15.4 oz
Total Hops: 2.00 oz


Mash Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 44.5 %
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 22.3 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3 8.4 %
12.0 oz Biscuit Malt (27.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.2 %
5.3 oz Aromatic Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.8 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.4 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 7 0.7 %


Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 22.77 qt of water at 158.2 F 149.0 F 90 min
Fly sparge with 3.85 gal water at 168.0 F


Boil Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2 lbs D90 Candi Syrup (90.0 SRM) Sugar 8 11.1 %
1 lbs D180 Candi Syrup (180.0 SRM) Sugar 9 5.6 %
1.00 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 10 33.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 11 4.6 IBUs
1.00 Items Servomyces (Boil 5.0 mins) Other 12 -


Fermentation Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [40.00 ml] Yeast 13 -


Fermentation

1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (18.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (3.00 days at 60.0 F ending at 36.0 F)

Do a separate boildown of about 0.75 gallons of first runnings into syrup, should be able to add back to boil kettle before boil gets rolling.
 
I just started drinking the latest batch yesterday and its ridiculously good! My FG only got down to 1.015 so its a bit sweeter than I typically like but it comes out and works really well. Its got a dark chocolate syrup, black cherry and dusted cocoa thing going on thats really awesome.
 
You know it's interesting you say that about dark chocolate syrup and dusted cocoa thing. My most recent batch has a very similar flavor with my modification being some vienna instead of pale malt and all CSI D180 syrup. I got down to 1.011 on a standard version and split off 3 gal with some sour cherry juice and a small piece of oak spiral. The sour cherry/oak is a great compliment it's a touch higher gravity at 1.014 but it has the acidity from the cherries to balance it out.
 
After 6 days in the primary, the gravity dropped from 1.094 to 1.014. This is the first time I pitched onto a yeast cake from a previous batch; looks like it worked. I must say this already has an incredible flavor, a little warming feeling (not too much), and a great dry finish. The only tough part is going to be waiting until August to bottle and sample again. Thanks for everybody's insights into this one, it helped a lot.
 
So I'm sorry if this has been covered, but the idea of a belgian strong racked onto cherries has intrigued me. Has anyone tried infusing a little cherryness into the new world? Im thinkin just a hint of it, nothing to strong, might be something a tasty. Or is the complexity already so that this may just convolute the flavor? I haven't tried Westvelteren, so I don't really have any ideafor what my base is. Any thoughts on this idea?
 
So I'm sorry if this has been covered, but the idea of a belgian strong racked onto cherries has intrigued me. Has anyone tried infusing a little cherryness into the new world? Im thinkin just a hint of it, nothing to strong, might be something a tasty. Or is the complexity already so that this may just convolute the flavor? I haven't tried Westvelteren, so I don't really have any ideafor what my base is. Any thoughts on this idea?

I brewed a Belgian Strong Dark Ale (think Rochefort 10 crossed with Trois Pistoles) on 100% Brett L, which kicks out a slight cherry flavor. The beer came out excellent.

Though, I think the _thing_ with W12 is that complex dark burnt sugar, brown sugar, molasses type taste. Not sure I'd slate cherries with that, personally. If were to attempt cherry flavors, though, instead of racking to cherries, I'd take the W12 recipe, bring up a brett L starter, and just use Brett L to ferment the beer. Age for 3-5 months.
 
stevehollx said:
I brewed a Belgian Strong Dark Ale (think Rochefort 10 crossed with Trois Pistoles) on 100% Brett L, which kicks out a slight cherry flavor. The beer came out excellent.

Though, I think the _thing_ with W12 is that complex dark burnt sugar, brown sugar, molasses type taste. Not sure I'd slate cherries with that, personally. If were to attempt cherry flavors, though, instead of racking to cherries, I'd take the W12 recipe, bring up a brett L starter, and just use Brett L to ferment the beer. Age for 3-5 months.

Troegs mad elf is made with cherries and honey; I've done little research but most clone recipes have the Belgian dark being racked onto cherries. I didn't go back through to read entire thread, this may have already been discussed.
 
I very recently did a 9 gal batch of the Old World. I then took 3 gal and put some sour cherry juice in the fermentor with a 2" piece of oak spiral and a touch of bourbon. The flavor came out rather nicely I would say. This recipe is pretty suited for the addition of cherries if you ask me.
 
Interesting. Smokinghole, what portion would you say you liked better, cherried or regular? Also how did the sour cherry juice translate? Some ppl would argue against using juice instead of whole cherries, but that can get expensive especially for an experiment. How much did you add?
 
I like both. The cherry version was just for a change of pace and a different beer with little extra effort. The cherry version tastes a touch sweeter since it ended up 4 points higher than the non cherry version. I think if it weren't for the acid it'd taste considerably sweeter. I need to find my notes on the beer. I believe I only added 16 ounces of Knudsen Just Cherry Juice. So in the 3 gal it was not a big percentage but its noticeable. I will need to find where I have it noted and I will post back. I went with juice vs whole cherries because I didn't want to get the yeast from the skins. You can buy irradiated or pasteurized puree or dry cherries I guess. The juice was on sale and I gave it a go.
 
I did this recipe (the traditional version) about 2 months ago. Didnt decoction, but mashed around 154 instead. I didnt have a way to keep it chilled for aging, so I left it at room temp and let it do its thing and when I checked the gravity on it recently it was at 1.000 !!! :eek: :drunk: I have no clue how a 1.100 OG beer finished at 1.000 but I'm thinking this beast is going to need some serious aging.
 
octo said:
I did this recipe (the traditional version) about 2 months ago. Didnt decoction, but mashed around 154 instead. I didnt have a way to keep it chilled for aging, so I left it at room temp and let it do its thing and when I checked the gravity on it recently it was at 1.000 !!! :eek: :drunk: I have no clue how a 1.100 OG beer finished at 1.000 but I'm thinking this beast is going to need some serious aging.

It happens, especially of the secondary is warm you may get some unexpected gravity loss. My DFH 120 clone just went from 1.12 to 1.0.
 
octo said:
I did this recipe (the traditional version) about 2 months ago. Didnt decoction, but mashed around 154 instead. I didnt have a way to keep it chilled for aging, so I left it at room temp and let it do its thing and when I checked the gravity on it recently it was at 1.000 !!! :eek: :drunk: I have no clue how a 1.100 OG beer finished at 1.000 but I'm thinking this beast is going to need some serious aging.

It sounds like you have a wild yeast infection or a hydrometer that needs calibration. That degree of attenuation (95%+) is not realistic for this yeast, especially if you mashed at 154F.
 
It sounds like you have a wild yeast infection or a hydrometer that needs calibration. That degree of attenuation (95%+) is not realistic for this yeast, especially if you mashed at 154F.

That's what I thought initially, since the blowoff that came from it eventually formed a lacto like pellicle on it, but the fermenter/ beer in fermenter is clean of any signs of infection and the beer tastes just fine (albeit boozy). I used the hydrometer on another beer after and it measured just fine on that one. :confused:
 
Not that it answers the question as to how you got such high attenuation but measuring with a hydrometer is only apparent attenuation. The resulting mixture of alcohol, water, and carbohydrates are difficult to measure with a hydrometer. You very likely have some gravity left but the less dense alcohol is throwing the meter off especially at 13%. Eitherway you still got a crazy high attenuation.
 
Brewed the traditional recipe last Saturday, ended up at 1.092. Checked last night and I'm down to 1.013 already...nice... I pitched on a cake of Wyeast 1214 from a Blond ale.

A question for you all...has anyone aged it a low ale temps instead of 50F? I don't really have an easy way to age it for 7 weeks at 50F...I hope to keep it in the low 60s, though. Has anyone who also doesn't have temp control tried that? If so, how did it turn out?
 
beowulf said:
Brewed the traditional recipe last Saturday, ended up at 1.092. Checked last night and I'm down to 1.013 already...nice... I pitched on a cake of Wyeast 1214 from a Blond ale.

A question for you all...has anyone aged it a low ale temps instead of 50F? I don't really have an easy way to age it for 7 weeks at 50F...I hope to keep it in the low 60s, though. Has anyone who also doesn't have temp control tried that? If so, how did it turn out?

Mine was never down at 50. Probably high 50s in the basement. My beer turned out excellent. It's coming up on 1 year and it keeps improving. I don't think you will have a problem in the low 60's.
 
I figured that would be the case, but thought I would check anyway. I have it down to 64 now so hopefully I can keep it in the 60-64 range. Thanks!
 
Without temp control, I was only able to get it down to 72 in the basement during the summer. It still tastes delicious, and only keeps getting better.
 
I made one of each a couple months ago but due to a bottle shortage, I'm unable to bottled them. I just moved them to a secondary and they both will age at least another 2 months. I have too many beer that have to be drunk young in the pipeline. Anyway bulk aging for those beer will be beneficial and I still have bottle from the previous batches.
 
I took first place in Belgian Strong with the Pious New World recipe (and over a year aging) in the Malt Madness Homebrew competition!!! (584 entries in the comp, 30 in Belgian Strong Ales) This is one of the big homebrew competitions in Eastern Pennsylvania. I was VERY thrilled. Thanks for everyone who contributed to this thread/beer.
 
I took first place in Belgian Strong with the Pious New World recipe (and over a year aging) in the Malt Madness Homebrew competition!!! (584 entries in the comp, 30 in Belgian Strong Ales) This is one of the big homebrew competitions in Eastern Pennsylvania. I was VERY thrilled. Thanks for everyone who contributed to this thread/beer.
jpoder, can you share your recipe permutation and ingredients list?
 
jpoder, can you share your recipe permutation and ingredients list?

I think my recipe was pretty stock for the new world version:

I made a 6.5 gallon batch and estimated 70% efficiency (probably hit 65%)
S.G. 1.080
F.G. 1.014

14 lbs 11.6 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 73.1 %
1 lbs 2.1 oz Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.6 %
9.0 oz Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.8 %
5.8 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.8 %
5.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.5 %
4.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.2 %

Mash In Add 19.00 qt of water at 161.8 F 149.0 F 45 min
Step Add 1.20 qt of water at 207.4 F 152.0 F 40 min
Mash Out Add 9.17 qt of water at 208.8 F 168.0 F 10 min
(missed my mash temp, so added boiling water to bump it up a few degrees)

2 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark (180.0 SRM) Sugar 7 9.9 %
13.1 oz Candi Sugar, Amber (90.0 SRM) Sugar 8 4.1 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [9.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 9 23.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Strisslespalt [2.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 10 4.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [2.60 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 11 4.7 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 12 -
1.20 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 13

used Candi Syrup, Inc's D180 and D90 syrups. sugar additions half at start of boil half at knockout.

WLP530 with 2 liter starter

Fermented in the low-mid 70's, raised into the 80's as fermentation slowed (~1.5 weeks in). then let bulk age in the low 70's for a few months (total fermentation/bulk aging (all in primary) 3 months. bottled.

Beer was ~ 18 months old when I took 1st.

I brewed both the new world and the old world versions about the same time (and like both tremendously), but feel that there is a bit more complexity from the new world version (from the specialty grains) that I really like.
 
I'm planning on giving a variation of the New World recipe a go soon. I brewed the Old World early last year, and while it was good, there was room to improve. I've scanned several of the 72 pages of this thread, but was wondering if someone could chime in on a few points:

1. What is the consensus on a pitching rate for this beer? A few posts indicate that purposely under-pitching to promote ester formation during the growth phase is beneficial. Yeastcalc is telling me a 3.5L starter assuming 75% viability would get to the typically accepted pitching rate for 5.5 gallons. Should I purposefully try to under-shoot this figure?

2. I think I might have ramped the fermentation temp too quickly last time around (pitched at 68F, got to 82F in 36hrs). Several BJCP judges dinged me for solventy/hot alcohol character, which I'm attributing to getting the beer too hot too fast. This time around, I'm going to ramp more slowly. What are people having success with in terms of time/temperature profile?

Many thanks to anyone who could offer some insight or advice based on personal experience with this recipe.

Cheers!
 
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