Looking for Food Safe materials for Mash Ton.

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Snoogles

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I am planning on making a Mash Tun and have seen quite a few DIY Mash Tun videos & posts... The problem is no one seems to mention the safety of the materials used in the DIY project. I've heard many of the Home Depot & Lowes parts are not food safe. I've read the metal "mesh" thats normally pulled from a dish washer supply line is not supposed to be used in food and have also read that PVC shouldn't be used in a circumstance where its going to be sitting in hot water for a long period of time.

Does anyone know of a good distributor or DIY instructional that has/uses safe parts? Thanks
 
I have been wondering about the same thing. I don't understand why more people aren't concerned about this danger.
 
The braid from a water supply line is stainless steel. It doesn't get more food grade than that. Most people use CPVC, not PVC for their plastic manifolds which is rated for hot potable water.
 
What parts are you talking about? A cooler is food grade, a SS toilet braid is safe to use. For short term, like the amount you are mashing in, a pvc manifold is safe.

Although you are worried, folks have been using ALL The things we use for over a decade in homebrewing.
 
I have been wondering about the same thing. I don't understand why more people aren't concerned about this danger.

Because maybe there's been enough info to show us it's not dangerous.


For example the plastic cooler many of us use....

According to Northern Brewer, the interiors of the Igloo coolers are made of polypropylene. The MSDS for that type of plastic indicated that it is stable to 480 degrees. I found the MSDS for HDPE and it's melting point is 276.8F. Definitely lower, but still considerably higher than what people would ever use in mashing. So perhaps this does indicate that the issue is more one of safety from burns rather than safety from leaching.

Also this is from one of our members-
Brewtus said:
I am a materials engineer who has designed plastics formulations for almost twenty years. I have a BS degree in chemistry and did my MS thesis in the field of polymer science and engineering. I have experience in many different polymer systems (PE, PP, PVC, PUR, PA, EVA, PC, PS, ESBS, PET, EPDM, SBR, CSM, FEP, PTFE, PVDF, ECTFE, just to name a few).

Plastics are generally misunderstood. Plastic compounds are generally composed of the base polymer (i.e. PE, PP, PVC, etc.) and additional additives that further enhance the polymer's physical or chemical properties (i.e. impart flexibility, add flame retardancy, increase impact resistance, etc.). For example, white rigid PVC pipe that we buy in home improvement centers is the same polymer as garden hoses, namely PVC. yet these two items behave very differently in terms of flexibility. This is because an additive called a plasticizer (essentially an organic oil) has been added to the hose to impart flexibility. The plasticizer molecules essentially "fill in" between each of the long chain polymer molecules causing them to slide across each other. Think of a lube on a molecular level. It's important to remember the difference between polymers and compounds. (Note: the lead that is in garden hoses is from a lead salt (lead phthatale or lead sulfate) that is used as a heat stabilizer. It will leach out.)

As far as leaching goes, a food grade polypropylene will not typically contain anything harmful that will leach into the mash at an unacceptable level (true for HDPE as well). The company can not label it as food grade if this was the case (this isn't China where companies can put melamine into dog food without regulation, or lead based paints on toys). The only thing I can think of that might leach into the mash would be a mold release agent that's there to help separate the liner from the mold during it's initial manufacturing process. Probably a food grade mineral oil or paraffinic compound that's easily removed with soap and water. There may also be some type of antioxidant or UV inhibitor to stabilize the polymer from high manufacturing temperatures or sunlight exposure. Again, these would be food grade and not pose a risk at the levels added. Look at some food labels and see how often you find BHT (butylated hydroxytoluene), yet you still eat this. Here's something else to think about: The residual component (terephthalic acid) used to make polyethylene terephthalate (PET) is in every plastic soda bottle because it leaches into the drink, especially the longer a bottle stays on the shelf. This is why a coke tastes different in plastic than glass or a can. Yet PET bottles are food safe.

Warping and cracking of the plastic is most likely due to temperature interactions. This is a physical event, not chemical. It has to do with the crystalinity of the polymer itself. Other things could be that the actual polymer itself could be oxidizing (which is a chemical reaction) over time at high temperatures if NO antioxidant is present. Also consider the melting points of LDPE, HDPE and PP (~100C, 130C and 160C respectively). LDPE softens at about 80C or so and HDPE softens at about 120C or so - meaning that at mashing temperatures, you're probably good with HDPE or PP. One has to remember that if you pour boiling water into a LDPE lined cooler, you could do some damage, but are fine in a HDPE or PP lined cooler.

He also did some experiments which he posted in THIS thread.

Warning: Science below!

This is concerning the white portion only. It would have been ideal situation to determine melting points and glass transition temperatures to get a better ID, but a differential scanning calorimeter is required for that, and mine happens to be broken. So I just used infrared spectroscopy to ID the plastic. I needed to get the plastic into a thin film for analysis, so that required melting it and pressing it out. I started at 100C, and it softened but did not melt all the way. Mission accomplished at 110C. If this were PP, it would have melted at 160C (or perhaps 130C if it were syndiotactic). So I knew it wasn't PP. Then I actually took the sample to the spectrometer, and the results showed a infrared spectrum matching PP. But wait, there was also the indication of some PE present. I then realized that this had to be a PE modified PP copolymer. This makes sense since the PE portion lowers the crystallinity of the PP giving better low temperature properties (this is supposed to be a cooler after all). HDPE would not be ideal at below freezing temps, and LDPE is too elastomeric. A modified PP copolymer gives a rigid material with better low temp properties.

Basically we know that we're safe AT LEAST putting 180 degree water in there....

Since most of us put in 170 degree water in there, or even if we do add more, like step mashing, we're still keeping the internal temps usually withing the safety range.

And anyway, millions of gallons of beer have been brewed this way over the last decade or so that this has become an accepted method of brewing, and since I already have man-boobs, I ain't gonna worry about it. I'm more worried about a zombipocolypse occuring in the next 3 months or so than about supposed leaching, which no one can actually prove does happen, but plenty of information shows it is unlikely to happen anyway.
 
If you are looking for food safe matierials, then simply go with SS for everything in your tun. Then make sure all your penitrations to your tun are sanitary welded to help ensure there are no cracks for bacteria to hide in.

Personally, I would never use PVC for anything in the brewing process due to the posability of chemical leach into the product @ high temperatures and the fact it will probally not last to repeated high temp application.

I see guys use coolers for tuns but I am not aware of the coolers operating temperture range if that is what you are after. What temperatures are you expecting to expose your tun to? once you know, look for a material to handle your temp spec.

I use boiling water from my HLT to run through my tun to help kill unwanted bacteria before use. That is why I have a SS tun to handle the temperature swings. I am not sure what a cooler would stand up to.
 
What parts are you talking about?

The 3 main things I was questioning

1. Various brass pieces and the possibility of them containing lead.
2. Supply Line mesh (Apparently there are different kinds and you want to stay away from galvanized)
3. PVC

Top two comments on this video are why I was questioning. I understand he explained how to get read of the lead in cooper but I'd rather just not deal with it at all. I guess I need to just make sure to be super safe I go with a stainless steel valve and stainless steal mesh.



Quotes for reference

"IMPORTANT: brass from most countries outside of the USA contain lead which is released in larger quantities when put into contact with an acid (ie the mash). Only recently was lead made illegal in the USA. I checked Lowes and their brass fittings are from China and contain .25% lead when wet (more when using it for beer). And the Gal steel is not food grade either. DO your research. Heavy metal poisoning is no joke. The only thing that is food grade in this video is the cooler and the SS."

"Nice video. One thing is the galvanized wire. The galvanic coating will come off into the beer and can poison you. I recommend stainless steel wire or copper wire. Also for people worried about lead in brass, just soak the brass in a solution of vinegar and hydrogen peroxide. Mix the solution 2 parts vinegar to 1 part peroxide and soak for no more than 5 minutes. This removes the lead from the surface of the brass. You can find this info in John Palmer's " How To Brew" book. Again nice video. :)"
 
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Revvy,

This may be true of the particular brand you mentioned, but I have yet to see ratings at all on many of the plastic mash tuns people use. In particular ice chest coolers, these products are not intended for exposure to hot liquid so I don't see why the manufacturer would have any reason to make them safe.

But hey I'd love to be wrong.
 
Oh wow very nice! Arg Copper! Expensive stuff hehe, how much did the copper manifold cost you roughly?

The shortest length of 1/2" copper I could get was 20' so I made 5 manifolds, so about $20 each + about $10 each for a couple of Dremmel cutoff wheels. I've got two for sale, if you're interested pm me.
 
Revvy,

This may be true of the particular brand you mentioned, but I have yet to see ratings at all on many of the plastic mash tuns people use. In particular ice chest coolers, these products are not intended for exposure to hot liquid so I don't see why the manufacturer would have any reason to make them safe.

But hey I'd love to be wrong.

Seriously, how off or different do you REALLY think it would be????? You really think that igloo's plastic is going to vary that far from colemans or from Ozark Trails? You think they're going to be so different that you can't just extrapolate that if one MAJOR MANUFACTURERS PLASTIC is ok, then it's pretty well going to be across the board???

Doesn't that fact that MILLIONS of homebrewers for the last 10-20 years have been using them count for ANYTHING?

And in ALL THE TIMES THREADS LIKE THIS HAVE APPEARED (you must realize you're not the first to have asked this) that NO ONE has been able to attribute 1 case of ANYTHING health related to our use of this???
 
Hypochondriacs Unite!!!

Really how much lead can leach out of the bronze or copper fittings. In the US these were made for use in liquids. Look at the hot water fittings all throughout your house! (unless your house is very new you have copper and brass all over the place. If it is new you have a lot of plastic!)

IMO what is there will come out in the first use and after that it is too deep in the metal to further leach out.

As to plastics, Again anything bad is going to come out in cleaning or the first use. It has been repeatedly posted by people who know that the temperatures used in brewing is no where near enough to be a problem.

Millions of gallons of beer have been brewed using these materials.

If you don't want to use them, that is your decision. What you feel comfortable with is what is most important.
 
Seriously, how off or different do you REALLY think it would be????? You really think that igloo's plastic is going to vary that far from colemans or from Ozark Trails? You think they're going to be so different that you can't just extrapolate that if one MAJOR MANUFACTURERS PLASTIC is ok, then it's pretty well going to be across the board???

Doesn't that fact that MILLIONS of homebrewers for the last 10-20 years have been using them count for ANYTHING?

And in ALL THE TIMES THREADS LIKE THIS HAVE APPEARED (you must realize you're not the first to have asked this) that NO ONE has been able to attribute 1 case of ANYTHING health related to our use of this???

Hahaha, alright well you are clearly very passionate about plastics, and I am certainly not claiming to be an expert. Just expressing a potential concern that I am obviously not the first to have.
 
Hahaha, alright well you are clearly very passionate about plastics, and I am certainly not claiming to be an expert. Just expressing a potential concern that I am obviously not the first to have.

It's not that I'm passionate about plastics...I just can't live my life in fear of everything, especially if like I and others have said, MILLIONS of gallons, if not billions of gallons of beer has been made this way.

There's a point where we can ignore the obvious, and wrap ourselves in a bubble. Or say, wtf, the brewers on here tend to be for the most part very intelligent folks, some are even scientists, or professionals in the plastic industry and many of them that I see are doing "X" so therefore, maybe my fear is blocking me from simply doing it.

Our livers are already taking a hit from what we make, so if no one's dying around me, or growing man boobs because they drink beer mashed in a cooler, then maybe my fear is a little irrational.

*shrug*

I just hate to see overweaning fear, blocking folks.
 
Hahaha, alright well you are clearly very passionate about plastics, and I am certainly not claiming to be an expert. Just expressing a potential concern that I am obviously not the first to have.

I'm sure that Revvy is not making this a personal thing directed at you. You are not the first to express this concern. I have only been on this forum since last August and this topic comes up every couple of weeks.

Despite the lack of evidence that anything bad comes from hot temperatures and plastic, and more to the point that the idea has more or less been refuted, it keeps coming up as a concern.

IMO Revvy is only trying to dispel what most feel is an unwarranted concern. Include me among those who feel it is unwarranted.
 
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